Thanks for ruining my trip to Whole Foods, Fundie Lady.

[Hane]

Today I stopped by the Whole Foods store near my office. It was a beautiful day: sunny, in the low 60s, and a nice quiet day at work because most people took Veterans' Day off. The Whole Foods atmosphere was pleasant: A group from a local synagogue was distributing flyers for social service agencies, but turned down the cash offered them because they were just there to share info, and they'd be getting 5% of the store's profits for the day. There were lots of great food samples, too.

At the checkout, I chatted with a pleasant, hip-looking young woman in black leggings and a tunic. She had a sweet, cheery toddler in a stroller, and was extremely pregnant. As her order was being rung up, I told her, "Well, I certainly hope you feel as wonderful as you look!" (because she did look fantastic--healthy and energetic). As she got ready to leave, she said, "Aren't you sweet! This is for you!" and put a card into my hand. I reflexively said, "Thank you!" and shoved it into my pocket.

I read it later. This is what it said:

The symbol on the front [a sideways 8] represents Infinity or Eternity. How long is that? It is forever and ever and ever. That's a LONG TIME! Even if you live to be 100, what is that compared to forever? Comparing 100 years to eternity is like comparing inches to millions of miles. [Math students would beg to differ.] The Big question is where will you go when you die and step into eternity? You can know by looking at the Ten Commandments. Have you ever lied? Stolen? Looked with lust? Taken God's name in vain? if you have just broken these four of the Ten Commandments, God sees you as a liar, a thief, and adulterer at hear (Matt. 5:28) and a blasphemer. If you die in your sins you will spend eternity in Hell. That's NOT God's will for you! Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, died on the cross and rose again. He did this to Cleanse and Pardon you of your sins, Reconcile you to God so you can have a relationship with Him and Empower you to live a Holy life. If you will Repent of your sins (turn from them) and Trust Christ He will save you and change you! Do it today before you step into Eternity! For a free book on this topic go to oneheartbeataway.org.

(wonky capitalization as shown)

Well, ain't THAT a cheerer-upper, honey. I'm a UU with a long Catholic background, and that just plain rubbed against the grain.

This is the LAST thing I would have expected to get in a Whole Foods--this Whole Foods in particular. This is a fairly upscale yet down-to-earth Connecticut suburb. There is a substantial Jewish community, and several mainstream Christian churches (Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Methodist, etc.)--but my Google-fu turned up a couple of fairly new (founded less than 15 years ago) mega-ish evangelical churches. The HUH?

The URL on the card led me to something called Mark Cahill Ministries. (I panicked for a sec and thought it said "Mark Driscoll Ministries.")

I'd send for their book if I didn't want to risk visits from proselytizers.

[feministxtian]

30 seconds of google-fu turned this up

airocross.com/2010/10/13/mark-cahill-sad-and-shocking-news/

[Hane]

30 seconds of google-fu turned this up

airocross.com/2010/10/13/mark-cahill-sad-and-shocking-news/

Thanks, feministxtian. The cherry on the sundae: Calvinist hair-splitting! It makes me think of God sitting up on a cloud thinking, "Oh, for crying out loud, people--drop the mental gymnastics and just treat each other right!"

[feministxtian]

Thanks, feministxtian. The cherry on the sundae: Calvinist hair-splitting! It makes me think of God sitting up on a cloud thinking, "Oh, for crying out loud, people--drop the mental gymnastics and just treat each other right!"

I'm doomed to hell. I'm in the Arminian camp. I can't stand the hair-splitting between Calvinists.

[EmiGirl]

I'm doomed to hell. I'm in the Arminian camp. I can't stand the hair-splitting between Calvinists.

think how I feel. I'm married to a calvinist!

[sparkles]

That's a whole lotta doom and death in that there message. You sure she wasn't steve Maxwell in drag?

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

That is really random. Maybe someone should make a response card with this forum address on it. :lol:

[patsymae]

OK, I think going to Whole Foods is just another marketing tactic. Because they want to "minister" to a different "class" of people (and, not to be harsh, but to be honest, you said you didn't expect this in an upscale market, like if you'd been at Aldi's or a dollar store that would have been more acceptable? Or at least understandable?) Predators and manipulators are shrewed and know how to adapt to the environments of their prey and present themselves as harmless, as they did to you, and to engage in just enough personal interaction, as this woman did with you. I highly doubt this woman routinely shops at Whole Foods for her family. She was there specifically to give you that "message."

[feministxtian]

think how I feel. I'm married to a calvinist!

I am SO sorry...I can't find the hugs smiley so ((((((((((((EmiGirl))))))))))))))

[Snarkle]

Every time I think of Whole Foods (which I hit up once in a blue moon, as there are none close enough to just drop into for me), I think of this article a friend sent me once and I laugh all over again. I have to keep myself from yelling "Namaste!" the whole time I'm there...wonder what the Fundie lady would have thought if she'd had this sort of experience? (And I agree with patsymae - they may be trying to convert the crunchy heathens.)

huffingtonpost.com/kelly-maclean/surviving-whole-foods_b_3895583.html

[Arete]

People are forgetting that there is a significant subset of crunchy fundies. They are just as into organic produce and hormone free meat as the granola that leans left, so I am not at all surprised that some shop at Whole Foods.

It's not that she went to Whole Foods specifically to proselytize; fundies like her do not leave home without being ready to shove literature at the heathens at a moment's notice.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I could be married to many kinds of people, but never a Calvinist! I am highly irritated by them.

[Boogalou]

OK, I think going to Whole Foods is just another marketing tactic. Because they want to "minister" to a different "class" of people (and, not to be harsh, but to be honest, you said you didn't expect this in an upscale market, like if you'd been at Aldi's or a dollar store that would have been more acceptable? Or at least understandable?) Predators and manipulators are shrewed and know how to adapt to the environments of their prey and present themselves as harmless, as they did to you, and to engage in just enough personal interaction, as this woman did with you. I highly doubt this woman routinely shops at Whole Foods for her family. She was there specifically to give you that "message."

While I don't know that specific woman's reasons for being at Whole Foods I don't think it necessarily means she was there just to hand out her cards. Zsu shops at Whole Foods, and like ArteJo said there is a significant number of crunchy fundies.

[nomoxian]

OK, I think going to Whole Foods is just another marketing tactic. Because they want to "minister" to a different "class" of people (and, not to be harsh, but to be honest, you said you didn't expect this in an upscale market, like if you'd been at Aldi's or a dollar store that would have been more acceptable? Or at least understandable?) Predators and manipulators are shrewed and know how to adapt to the environments of their prey and present themselves as harmless, as they did to you, and to engage in just enough personal interaction, as this woman did with you. I highly doubt this woman routinely shops at Whole Foods for her family. She was there specifically to give you that "message."

Aldi is my to-go-to store, and I'd be hellapissed if someone gave me something like that... Though I guess I could be all like "Ich... sprichst... nein Deutsch!" with a shit eating grin on my face.

[Burris]

The symbol on the front [a sideways 8] represents Infinity or Eternity. How long is that?

These “questions†are among the most irritating features of a poorly written tract.

It is forever and ever and ever.

Gee, golly Mister – is that a long time?

That's a LONG TIME! Even if you live to be 100, what is that compared to forever? Comparing 100 years to eternity is like comparing inches to millions of miles. The Big question...

So, yeah – a really, really long time. A long time. A LONG TIME!

…is where will you go when you die and step into eternity?

Check out who the author lists as candidates for eternal torment:

You can know by looking at the Ten Commandments. Have you ever lied? Stolen? Looked with lust? Taken God's name in vain? if you have just broken these four of the Ten Commandments, God sees you as a liar, a thief, and adulterer at hear (Matt. 5:28) and a blasphemer.

In other words, the omnipotent, omni-benevolent creator of the universe is ready, willing, and able to banish absolutely everyone he created to eternal torment for doing things that are basically hardwired into us (for example, the various sexual sins).

The superintendent of 200 billion galaxies has nothing better to do than place a black mark on someone’s record after a man yells “Jesus Christ†when he stubs his toe.

I call bullshit. Hell; the Bible calls bullshit.

If you die in your sins you will spend eternity in Hell. That's NOT God's will for you!

Open a dictionary. Look up the word “omnipotent.†If God’s will is against a thing, that thing will not happen.

Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, died on the cross and rose again. He did this to Cleanse and Pardon you of your sins.

One of the Biblical authors offers a touching explanation for why something like this would work, and yet I’ve never heard any preacher – and especially not the fundies we watch – use the following quote in their sermons:

“Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.†- Hebrews 2:14-15. (See also John 1:14 and Romans 8:3)

Reconcile you to God so you can have a relationship with Him and Empower you to live a Holy life. If you will Repent of your sins (turn from them) and Trust Christ He will save you and change you! Do it today before you step into Eternity.

So we have some exceptionally dire warnings with little information on how to avoid this nightmarish fate.

How does one develop this “relationship†with the Alpha and the Omega; the Ancient of Days?

That justice should bear some relationship to the initial crime is a concept that does appear in the Bible (even thought the author of the tract doesn't understand the idea at all). Ancient proportional justice doesn’t look all that much like proportional justice as we understand it today, but a form of this justice does exist in the Bible text.

Perhaps the most famous call to proportional justice is the often misunderstood comment, “Eye for eye, tooth for tooth…†– (Exodus 21:24). This passage places limits on what kind of retribution a person can seek for any wrong done to him.

If a straight exchange isn’t realistic, or if the offender has another means to pay for the offense, the local judges could impose a fine on the perpetrator.

For example, a fine plus interest for theft or fraud (Leviticus 6:1-5), and a 5:1 fine for stealing or/and killing livestock (Exodus 22:1).

Finite, limited people are counseled to solve their differences through a system of mediation and fines (or, if the offense warranted it by the mores of the ancient Near East, a sentence of death could be imposed – and even then, there’s evidence a person could escape the death penalty either by paying a major fine or by fleeing the city).

We’re talking about God, here; the creator of all that is, of things seen and unseen; of light, darkness, and every shade of colour; of speed and slowness; of planets. small and large; of suns, satellites, meteorites, and brains both human and nonhuman; of atmospheres and magma; of galaxies and universes and particles so small we have yet to develop a technology to see them.

Of everything.

If such a being is indeed benevolent and does look after our interests, perhaps allowing free will so that our choices can mean something, then even the most basic appeal to common sense would suggest such a being simply does not care about minutia such as cuss words – especially when there are so many worse things in the world for God to face.

What the author proposes is that God is petty autocrat who micromanages everything and yet, despite its constant meddling, will still punish people – eternally punish them, with fire – for following the course God set for them. That would make God history’s greatest monster and then some. (ETA: And that is, more or less, what Calvinists believe. They should be ashamed of themselves. Their views are the ultimate in, "Fuck you; I got mine!")

The Bible is a very long book, written and collated across eons, and only reaching the “standard†Protestant form with its 66 books around the start of the 17th Century. Numerous individuals have contributed to the Bible and edited it.

As a result, there are all manner of different beliefs, including a range of ideas about death and the afterlife: Solomon argues that the dead know nothing, and Job believes the same.

Other authors – usually later in the canon - believe in a literal, bodily resurrection, whereas still others adopt the Hellenistic idea that each soul survives death and goes on to its reward after dying. (The most famous advocate of this latter view may well have been Jesus himself, promising the Good Thief that he would be in paradise the very day he died.)

Not surprisingly, those who believe in an afterlife may differ markedly in what they think happens next: Some support the idea of universal reconciliation, while others have adopted annihilationism – the doctrine that the non-elect simply cease (which is what atheists believe will happen anyway).

Of all the positions out there, eternal damnation is the weakest one. This view is “supported†by the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man - a story with a moral center which may or may not have any basis in fact. The incomprehensible and highly problematic Book of Revelation also talks about the second death.

Taken as a whole, the Bible doesn’t say much about the afterlife, good or bad. (I doubt we’re any more able to accurately conceive of an afterlife than a fetus could conceive of the world beyond the womb; the shock of cool air, of breathing, of crying, of the greater available space around it.)

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.†– 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) [Emphasis mine]

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne;

steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.†Psalm 89:14 (NRSV)

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.†– John 13:34-35 (ESV)

“To the contrary, ‘if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.†- Romans 12:20-21

“Love your enemies; pray for those who do you ill.†Matthew 5:44 (ESV)

“Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.†- Ephesians 4:32

“The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,†says the LORD.†- Isaiah 65:25

*sigh* One can hope.

[Snarkle]

People are forgetting that there is a significant subset of crunchy fundies. They are just as into organic produce and hormone free meat as the granola that leans left, so I am not at all surprised that some shop at Whole Foods.

It's not that she went to Whole Foods specifically to proselytize; fundies like her do not leave home without being ready to shove literature at the heathens at a moment's notice.

Sounds like a multi-level marketing/home business thing - shoving a catalog (or in this case, a tract) at anyone who strikes up a conversation with you, trying to get them to buy your product (or buy into your beliefs). Wonder if congregations do trainings on this sort of thing - how to "sell" their particular flavor of belief?

[Coco]

These “questions†are among the most irritating features of a poorly written tract.

Gee, golly Mister – is that a long time?

So, yeah – a really, really long time. A long time. A LONG TIME!

Check out who the author lists as candidates for eternal torment:

In other words, the omnipotent, omni-benevolent creator of the universe is ready, willing, and able to banish absolutely everyone he created to eternal torment for doing things that are basically hardwired into us (for example, the various sexual sins).

The superintendent of 200 billion galaxies has nothing better to do than place a black mark on someone’s record after a man yells “Jesus Christ†when he stubs his toe.

I call bullshit. Hell; the Bible calls bullshit.

Open a dictionary. Look up the word “omnipotent.†If God’s will is against a thing, that thing will not happen.

One of the Biblical authors offers a touching explanation for why something like this would work, and yet I’ve never heard any preacher – and especially not the fundies we watch – use the following quote in their sermons:

“Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.†- Hebrews 2:14-15. (See also John 1:14 and Romans 8:3)

So we have some exceptionally dire warnings with little information on how to avoid this nightmarish fate.

How does one develop this “relationship†with the Alpha and the Omega; the Ancient of Days?

That justice should bear some relationship to the initial crime is a concept that does appear in the Bible (even thought the author of the tract doesn't understand the idea at all). Ancient proportional justice doesn’t look all that much like proportional justice as we understand it today, but a form of this justice does exist in the Bible text.

Perhaps the most famous call to proportional justice is the often misunderstood comment, “Eye for eye, tooth for tooth…†– (Exodus 21:24). This passage places limits on what kind of retribution a person can seek for any wrong done to him.

If a straight exchange isn’t realistic, or if the offender has another means to pay for the offense, the local judges could impose a fine on the perpetrator.

For example, a fine plus interest for theft or fraud (Leviticus 6:1-5), and a 5:1 fine for stealing or/and killing livestock (Exodus 22:1).

Finite, limited people are counseled to solve their differences through a system of mediation and fines (or, if the offense warranted it by the mores of the ancient Near East, a sentence of death could be imposed – and even then, there’s evidence a person could escape the death penalty either by paying a major fine or by fleeing the city).

We’re talking about God, here; the creator of all that is, of things seen and unseen; of light, darkness, and every shade of colour; of speed and slowness; of planets. small and large; of suns, satellites, meteorites, and brains both human and nonhuman; of atmospheres and magma; of galaxies and universes and particles so small we have yet to develop a technology to see them.

Of everything.

If such a being is indeed benevolent and does look after our interests, perhaps allowing free will so that our choices can mean something, then even the most basic appeal to common sense would suggest such a being simply does not care about minutia such as cuss words – especially when there are so many worse things in the world for God to face.

What the author proposes is that God is petty autocrat who micromanages everything and yet, despite its constant meddling, will still punish people – eternally punish them, with fire – for following the course God set for them. That would make God history’s greatest monster and then some. (ETA: And that is, more or less, what Calvinists believe. They should be ashamed of themselves. Their views are the ultimate in, "Fuck you; I got mine!")

The Bible is a very long book, written and collated across eons, and only reaching the “standard†Protestant form with its 66 books around the start of the 17th Century. Numerous individuals have contributed to the Bible and edited it.

As a result, there are all manner of different beliefs, including a range of ideas about death and the afterlife: Solomon argues that the dead know nothing, and Job believes the same.

Other authors – usually later in the canon - believe in a literal, bodily resurrection, whereas still others adopt the Hellenistic idea that each soul survives death and goes on to its reward after dying. (The most famous advocate of this latter view may well have been Jesus himself, promising the Good Thief that he would be in paradise the very day he died.)

Not surprisingly, those who believe in an afterlife may differ markedly in what they think happens next: Some support the idea of universal reconciliation, while others have adopted annihilationism – the doctrine that the non-elect simply cease (which is what atheists believe will happen anyway).

Of all the positions out there, eternal damnation is the weakest one. This view is “supported†by the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man - a story with a moral center which may or may not have any basis in fact. The incomprehensible and highly problematic Book of Revelation also talks about the second death.

Taken as a whole, the Bible doesn’t say much about the afterlife, good or bad. (I doubt we’re any more able to accurately conceive of an afterlife than a fetus could conceive of the world beyond the womb; the shock of cool air, of breathing, of crying, of the greater available space around it.)

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.†– 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) [Emphasis mine]

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne;

steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.†Psalm 89:14 (NRSV)

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.†– John 13:34-35 (ESV)

“To the contrary, ‘if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.†- Romans 12:20-21

“Love your enemies; pray for those who do you ill.†Matthew 5:44 (ESV)

“Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.†- Ephesians 4:32

“The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,†says the LORD.†- Isaiah 65:25

*sigh* One can hope.

:clap: Thank you, this is brilliant. This should be printed on response tracts to hand back to annoying people.

[Burris]

:clap: Thank you, this is brilliant. This should be printed on response tracts to hand back to annoying people.

I have a weak spot for tracts, both the crazy kind and the (much rarer) useful kind. Too many tracts are nothing else than facile variations of the question, 'Have you said the magic prayer yet?'

The best tracts, or so I've found, treat narrowly with religion even while sharing useful information that could be helpful or uplifting (in a non-denominational way) to the reader.

[lilwriter85]

My mother and I had similar experiences years ago when we shopped at the regular non-organic Albertson's grocery store. This was the late 90s/early 00s, a group of young people from a Baptist church used to hand out different tracts. As other FJers said, there are some fundies both, hardcore and lite that are shopping at Whole Foods.

[Trynn]

I am totally going to send in for that free book. Because I am an addict and books are my crack.

[16strong]

It would be awesome if someone here kept a file crate filled with tracts organized by religion/sect/cult, and then when any proselytizers came by, said "wait here one minute," and then retrieved the whole case of files and said "okay now, which group do you belong to?"

As for me, I usually run them straight through the shredder. :lol:

[SassyPants]

How many fundies have the funds needed to shop and feed a herd from the whole paycheck? Granted, there is not one fundie in my very, very liberal (one of the most in the country) county, so my contact is nil, just not believing many fundies shop at such stores.

[MamaJunebug]

Thanks, feministxtian. The cherry on the sundae: Calvinist hair-splitting! It makes me think of God sitting up on a cloud thinking, "Oh, for crying out loud, people--drop the mental gymnastics and just treat each other right!"

If only we all saw this.

Well put, Hane.

[Hane]

Well, the trip to Whole Foods wasn't a total loss: I put in for a raffle while I was there and won a $20 gift card!

[kimberm]

Well, the trip to Whole Foods wasn't a total loss: I put in for a raffle while I was there and won a $20 gift card!

Woohoo!!! Congrats on the gift card. It sucks you got hit up by a new cult though