Debate: does porn lead to disrespect?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Sheila (Love, Honor and Vacuum) had some posts critical of porn, 50 Shades of Grey and the whole idea of culture promoting the degradation of women as sexy.

I thought this would be a good topic to debate here.

Is porn and erotica - even in forms that explore scenarios involving foul language/name-calling, rough sex, BDSM, etc. - a harmless outlet as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult?

Are kinks just like any other sexual preference, and something that is likely hardwired in some people from birth?

Do attitudes in popular culture and media and porn actually shape what we see as sexy? Can we become conditioned to see domination and degradation as sexy? Can this go beyond consensual fantasy and start to shape attitudes toward women beyond the bedroom?

Post your thoughts!

My preliminary take on this? I think that some stuff is probably hard-wired in individuals, but that media including porn does shape what people find sexy. Most visual porn is aimed at men, and it doesn't really reflect what most women would normally do and enjoy. It's not about what's pleasurable for the female actors, it's about the pleasure of the male viewer. If you watch enough stuff, and if what you are watching is tied to sexual pleasure, it makes sense that your brain starts to associate the two and the stuff in the porn becomes your fantasy - even if you never had any interest in some of the things prior.

[polecat]

I think this is one of those things that is really subjective to individuals/couples. I personally find pornography to be degrading. The industry itself seems like it is really hard on women given the fact that they only work in the industry from six to 18 months, on average (even if they are putting themselves through school, that's a remarkably short-lived job). Sex work in general also tends to be exploitative (I realize that not all of it is, but there is definitely a strong undercurrent of exploitation).

Now kink, that's something else entirely, and I don't think kink necessarily comes from porn consumption, nor do I think it is degrading as long as everyone is a consenting adult. Nor do I think bdsm, rough sex, role play or anything of the sort is wrong, unhealthy or degrading as long as everyone involved is of age and consenting.

[jerkit]

I feel like I can't take a side unless porn and sex work is separated from kink. Those are completely different, IMO.

[Firiel]

I'm not going to go so far to say that it's impossible for porn to be respectful of women or that all erotica leads to disrespect. Nor will I say that kink is inherently a reflection of disrespect. I don't generally speak in black-and-white terms, and I definitely won't start here.

But I'm not a fan of porn in general because I do think that society (the patriarchy) defines what we see as sexy. The problem (IMO) with people talking about porn and stripping and prostitution as empowering ways for women to claim their own sexuality is that those ways were originally defined and created by male desire, and I see no evidence that they have been "taken back," so to speak. An individual woman may, indeed, feel empowered by taking part in these activities, but for better or worse, that's not the end-all to me. Porn still largely presents woman as objects to be consumed by men and a man learning to objectify women through porn is not going to know or care if the woman on the other side of the camera feels empowered. Personal empowerment does not negate the way the product promotes objectification of women in general. When I think of women being sexually empowered, I think of women being able to say "yes" or "no" as they please and not be labeled as a slut or a prude. Generally, men do not participate in public displays of sexuality to prove they are sexually liberated, so I do not see why a woman participating in a public display of sexuality is needed to prove she is sexually liberated. I tend to agree with radical feminists on the porn topic, though I disagree with them in other ways.

As for kink, I do not feel qualified to talk about that, for sure! I'll say that I'm suspicious of men who "just naturally" want to be the dominant partner in a more kinky relationship, but that very well might be unfair. I'll leave the judgment of that to people involved in the community. But 50 Shades of Grey is definitely not a healthy BDSM relationship from what I've heard...

[2xx1xy1JD]

I was trying to find a good way to word this debate, because I've seen some Christian bloggers like Sheila lump the two issues together, and some others like Dan Savage draw a very sharp distinction between consensual kink and broader attitudes toward women.

I'm also wondering about stuff that's aimed at a mainstream audience, not a specific BDSM niche.

Does it shapes attitudes inside the bedroom or out if the 50 Shades of Grey trilogy becomes a runaway bestseller? Did the more empowered female characters of 20-30 years ago (think Jackie Collins or every Judith Krantz novel) make it more sexy to be powerful and independent?

Does it matter if men are routinely seeing things designed to turn them on, involving women being called bitches and dirty sluts? If they are shown rougher "jackhammer" sex instead of anything gentler, or anything that might realistically be pleasurable for most women? If the images and messages aren't just about sex, but about men dominating and using women?

[Firiel]

I was trying to find a good way to word this debate, because I've seen some Christian bloggers like Sheila lump the two issues together, and some others like Dan Savage draw a very sharp distinction between consensual kink and broader attitudes toward women.

I'm also wondering about stuff that's aimed at a mainstream audience, not a specific BDSM niche.

Does it shapes attitudes inside the bedroom or out if the 50 Shades of Grey trilogy becomes a runaway bestseller? Did the more empowered female characters of 20-30 years ago (think Jackie Collins or every Judith Krantz novel) make it more sexy to be powerful and independent?

Does it matter if men are routinely seeing things designed to turn them on, involving women being called bitches and dirty sluts? If they are shown rougher "jackhammer" sex instead of anything gentler, or anything that might realistically be pleasurable for most women? If the images and messages aren't just about sex, but about men dominating and using women?

Perhaps a matter of semantics, but I believe that things like 50 Shades of Grey reveal societal ideas about gender and sexuality more than they shape them, though I do think certain forms of media can help shape those ideas too.

Anyway. I think the runaway success of things like Twilight and 50 Shades reveals that the belief that women need to be controlled for their own good still runs rampant in our society. I do think that porn matters. While I'm realistic and not a prude, I believe that constantly being shown "rough"/demeaning sex can shape a person's desires to that type of sex and therefore perpetuates some of the harmful sexual stereotypes that we see around us. I do think that a lot of porn is about men dominating women and that it sets up some of the same sexual myths that evangelical Christianity does that we speak against so often-- that women should always be available, that women should be able to be turned on a moment's notice, etc. Essentially, it sets up the dichotomy that man is the self/subject in the encounter and that woman is the other/object in the encounter.*

[2xx1xy1JD]

Interesting thought about revealing versus shaping.

In general, and not just in porn, I do think that media and arts can influence societal ideas about gender roles. I was born in the early 1970s, and remember watching a lot of Free to Be You and Me and reading lots of novels where young girls fight to do whatever they want and being told that I could be a doctor or lawyer or anything else.

Here's the thing: when I was born, that world didn't exist yet. In law, for example, only 3% of lawyers were women. Twenty years later though, when I entered law school, half the class was female. We had been raised on tales of equality that started out as fantasy, and then became reality.

Twilight was written by a fairly conservative LDS woman. The main character, in many ways, reveals her world and her values, and just sticks in vampires for a metaphor. 50 Shades, of course, is just Twilight fan fiction. So yes, by design, it's based on traditional Christian (or LDS if you don't consider Mormons to be Christian), fairly conservative values and gender roles.

[Firiel]

Interesting thought about revealing versus shaping.

In general, and not just in porn, I do think that media and arts can influence societal ideas about gender roles. I was born in the early 1970s, and remember watching a lot of Free to Be You and Me and reading lots of novels where young girls fight to do whatever they want and being told that I could be a doctor or lawyer or anything else.

Here's the thing: when I was born, that world didn't exist yet. In law, for example, only 3% of lawyers were women. Twenty years later though, when I entered law school, half the class was female. We had been raised on tales of equality that started out as fantasy, and then became reality.

Yes, I definitely believe media and arts can influence society as well. It's really hard to tell when revealing ends and shaping begins. I think the art that sticks around does both. The books you read in the '70s sound like they were both revealing a discontent with the current state of gender roles as well as shaping new expectations where young girls could realistically dream about becoming doctors and lawyers. I love thinking about social texts in relation to the society that produced them! :)

Twilight was written by a fairly conservative LDS woman. The main character, in many ways, reveals her world and her values, and just sticks in vampires for a metaphor. 50 Shades, of course, is just Twilight fan fiction. So yes, by design, it's based on traditional Christian (or LDS if you don't consider Mormons to be Christian), fairly conservative values and gender roles.

Yes, that's true. I think the fact that it spread like wildfire among everyone, religious or not, reveals that those ideas about sex that we condemn in evangelical Christianity did not originate there and are still, in fact, very important (and harmful, IMO) parts of the cultural understanding of sex, even in the secular world. I'm about to go into a rambling wall o' text about how religion reflects the society in which it functions, but I'll avoid that for now. I would inevitably end up rambling on about Anglo-Saxon England. :)

[Bluenoser]

I don't think porn and erotica are harmful in general. There will always be fringe cases of wrongdoing in any scenario, but over all, I don't think that there is anything inherently evil. A woman working in porn has probably chosen on her own accord to do so. It's seems anti-feminist ( depending on your definition of the word) to tell that porn actress that she is being objectified by men, setting an unrealisitic standard, and being dominated by the patriarchy. She should not be chastized for her sex drive, interests, what she chooses to wear or how she presents herself.

{L_OFFTOPIC} :

I don't identify as a feminist, I think there is a double standard in our society and sometimes it favours men and sometimes it favours women. If you replying directly to me, I would be delighted if you gave a quick definition of feminism for yourself. I think so much is assumed in a debate that we are literally talking about different things sometimes.

I don't think "what is sexy" is as simple as saying that it is what the media/society dictates. I think what is sexy today is an exaggeration of what we've found attractive for millions of years.

This is a pretty incomplete but I need to start some cooking and cleaning. By my own choice! :lol:

[DGayle]

Fifty Shades doesn't belong in the category of erotica. In it, Ana is so innocent of all things having to do with sex that she thought penis-in-vagina was shocking and perverted. She found herself railroaded into a sexual relationship, was genuinely frightened, and made to be co-dependent on Christian from the start. There seems to be a school of thought that if you don't like Fifty Shades, then you must hate erotica, when the reality of it is peer-reviewed studies had concluded that Fifty Shades shows abuse, and people who've lived in the Lifestyle for decades have universally come out as against Fifty Shades because it doesn't show real BDSM, just abuse calling itself BDSM. Ana didn't know enough to give informed consent and in several scenes, was terrified and Christian wouldn't stop, and her orgasm was taken as proof that she really did want it, even though she was scared and told him no.

I don't think porn is automatically disrespectful or degrading. "Facial" shots (ejaculating on a woman's face) are generally meant to be degrading to women, for the men who get off on that stuff. There is a lot of porn these days made with women in mind that has more of an emotional connection as part of it (Dane Jones, Nubile Films, a lot of stuff with James Deen), and isn't meant to be degrading. I think a lot of people think of the 80's and 90's stuff that was usually made with pathetic storylines about women who couldn't pay their diner bills hooking themselves to the waiters. but porn has taken a new turn in recent years.

Porn shouldn't be lumped in with kinks. A lot of strong women like to be submissive in the bedroom (I'm one of them), and a lot of meek women can be dominatrixes. A lot of people are sexually turned on by taking on a persona they don't have in everyday life. Sex can be a release from the daily grind. If you're always in charge, it can be nice to let down and let someone you trust be in control, regardless of your sex.

Sex work can be empowering for women who choose it because of how we historically were denied making choices about it. Being able to say no is a step we couldn't take at one point. When a woman is in charge of her body, and has the right to use it for sex work or to say no, that's empowering, regardless of the fact that sex work is usually sold to men. Some women genuinely do enjoy it too.

[DGayle]

Does it shapes attitudes inside the bedroom or out if the 50 Shades of Grey trilogy becomes a runaway bestseller? Did the more empowered female characters of 20-30 years ago (think Jackie Collins or every Judith Krantz novel) make it more sexy to be powerful and independent?

I think so. The message right now is that Fifty Shades means female empowerment, even when the female protagonist is scared and saying no and having her pleas ignored. Women who speak out against the trilogy risk being called prudes who are against female empowerment, even if the reason you're against the trilogy is that women should be free to say NO and have it respected, and women shouldn't be scared in the presence of their boyfriends, and free to make their own birth control choices (Christian called in a doctor of his choosing to give Ana a pap, as well as the birth control of his own choosing, at his apartment, without her consent, and she was in a position where she didn't feel she could say no).

I've had people say I must be a prude who is against female empowerment. I laugh when this accusation is made. I'm that woman who knows about different porn companies, who (TMI alert) has been the entertainment in porn clubs, who was the furthest thing from a stereotypical prude, at least until I started having some dysfunction issues (now conclusively tied to some hormonal issues, and there aren't treatments for them all, which means I'm still screwed).

One of my good friends is in a relationship right now where she feels she can't say no to her boyfriend. She said it's because everyone keeps saying how Fifty Shades is empowering and feminist, so if she says no, there's got to be something wrong with her. She's very miserable, but is to scared to say no.

The message being sent to women is that these books are good, are about being strong, and is an example of a good relationship. This is dangerous. But this is also not porn. It's abuse (we see the story from Ana's first-person point of view, and read her fears and her instinctive responses to run and how she only does this and that because she thinks she has to or because saying no will mean she gets hurt worse), and so really doesn't have much of a place in a general porn debate.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

I guess I am strange because I absolutely could not get through 50 Shades of Grey- I thought that book was much more disrespecting of women than any of the 2 or 3 skin flicks I have seen.

I feel like this is kind of like wondering if watching Harry Potter leads to people thinking that Magic is real. There will always be a few who take things too far, but a movie is just a movie, right?

[Terrie]

The biggest outcry against 50 Shades I've seen is from the BDSM community, who proclaim that it fails to respect consent, which is big deal in the kink community. In fact, some studies suggest that the kink community often has healthier relationships because discussion of consent and limits is a cultural norm.

Of course, real BDSM is as much related to porn as real sex is. I think part of the issue is the way society thinks about porn -- a piece I read by a porn actress pointed out that no one complains about unrealistic expectations of driving from action movies, but everyone seems to fail to realize porn is stunt sex.

[guitar_villain]

50 Shades of Grey is possible the most disrespectful porn I've ever seen. Have you actually read any of it? The idea that this level of writing is what women want in erotica is an insult to the intelligence of women everywhere.

[Firiel]

I don't think porn and erotica are harmful in general. There will always be fringe cases of wrongdoing in any scenario, but over all, I don't think that there is anything inherently evil. A woman working in porn has probably chosen on her own accord to do so. It's seems anti-feminist ( depending on your definition of the word) to tell that porn actress that she is being objectified by men, setting an unrealisitic standard, and being dominated by the patriarchy. She should not be chastized for her sex drive, interests, what she chooses to wear or how she presents herself.

It is a bit interesting being in line with (in this regard) radical feminism. I feel like while I can believe that a particular effort (sexual liberation via stereotypically gendered sexual expression) is counter-productive, I must be very careful not to "slut-shame" people who disagree with me.* I fully understand where the other side is coming from-- I just don't agree with it. When I say I'm a feminist, I mean that I believe the patriarchy affects (to at least some degree) every part of our lives, both men and women. I would like to see expected gender roles eradicated to the point where true choice is possible. I also think that's a pipe dream and that it will never happen. Here's something else kind of radical. I don't believe in free will. I do believe will and decision-making exists, but we will never be making a choice just for us. Any decision that anyone makes will be affected by their culture and society. No decisions are made in a vacuum without being influenced by society's concepts and assumptions of gender.

Anyway, I think it's dangerous to reach a point where you call a different feminist opinion "anti-feminist." It seems like another form of the concept we joke about here-- the True Christian[tm][/tm]. I can accept that someone is a feminist and in the end wants the same thing I do (gender equality) but still disagree with the way that can happen. We can (hopefully) discuss it civilly and learn from each other, even if we don't "change our minds," per se. That should happen in any cultural, religious, or political movement-- though in reality, it seems it doesn't happen often.

Regarding porn again, I think I can explain it using the framework of reader response criticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reader-response_criticism). I believe that, as a whole, men still objectify women visually. The male gaze dominates film. Women are catcalled on the street. It's a mess. In a culture where that type of attitude towards women is the norm, I don't think that porn (as a whole) can empower women in a general sense (though I will not invalidate an individual's experience if someone says s/he is individually empowered). (Sweeping terms ahead... apologies!) It doesn't really matter what the intentions of the makers are. It doesn't really matter what the individuals involved feel. In a society where women are generally objectified, the consumers of the text (male viewers) will still use porn (even well-intentioned porn) as an opportunity to objectify women. And I know that there are smart, capable feminists who view things completely differently, and I can totally respect that.

*Wanted to add that it's not like I'm being forced not to slut-shame, which is kinda what it sounds like. I want to be very careful that I contain my disagreement to thinking an idea or concept is not the most effective and not to bashing people for individual choices when they subscribe to a particular idea. In other words, I want to, to the best of my ability, criticize the patriarchy and not the people (men, women, and children) living within it.

[lilah]

The biggest outcry against 50 Shades I've seen is from the BDSM community, who proclaim that it fails to respect consent, which is big deal in the kink community. In fact, some studies suggest that the kink community often has healthier relationships because discussion of consent and limits is a cultural norm.

Of course, real BDSM is as much related to porn as real sex is. I think part of the issue is the way society thinks about porn -- a piece I read by a porn actress pointed out that no one complains about unrealistic expectations of driving from action movies, but everyone seems to fail to realize porn is stunt sex.

Yeah that! I think the main issue that we have driver's education classes and people learn how to drive safely and if they don't they can get fined, arrested or even go to jail depending on the offense. There are so many traffic cameras in my neighborhood, it's borderline police state. It's very easy to see how stunt driving is not realistic.

Meanwhile sex education in our culture is often crappy, most of it is abstinence only, even comprehensive sex education does not do enough to teach people about consent and sex for pleasure. It doesn't suprise me that people often turn to porn to learn about sex. I don't think it's fair to blame pornography, people just need to be less stupid.

I do think a compounding factor is the the line between professional and amateur porn is really blurred given that all you need is a smart phone or webcam and you can make porn these days. it can be a lot harder to figure out what is real and what is not real in pornography. It is more important to educate people about consent and about talking to your partner about what they like/dislike instead of acting out some pornography with them because you don't have any idea how sex actually works.

Another thought- I don't know if this is result of how 50 Shades portrayed one specific kind of BDSM (very very badly I might add) but it seems really ignorant to conflate all BDSM with women being degraded. It completely ignores BDSM practices between same sex partners or fem dom/male sub partners. I don't see anyone wringing their hands about poor menz who are getting spanked by their wife.

[RachelB]

I have mixed feelings re: porn.

I don't have problems with material involving consenting adults being legal and available.

I don't find much of it personally compelling, because I do not feel right about appropriating, for sexy times, the image of someone I haven't received direct consent from. Personal quirk, I guess.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

An exception-- cartoonist Colleen Coover drew a comic porn series called Small Favors about the sexual adventures of a woman, her size-shifting pixie partner, and their friends and lovers. The storylines were feminist and queer (and there actually *were* storylines), and the characters seemed to genuinely like each other. I did not have complicated feelings about that series. Just, "Yay, another issue's out!"

[DGayle]

I guess I am strange because I absolutely could not get through 50 Shades of Grey- I thought that book was much more disrespecting of women than any of the 2 or 3 skin flicks I have seen.

I feel like this is kind of like wondering if watching Harry Potter leads to people thinking that Magic is real. There will always be a few who take things too far, but a movie is just a movie, right?

I only got through it because I thought it couldn't get worse, and it kept getting worse, and the epilogue is very pedophilic, with Ana becoming so twisted she says that their unborn daughter must already like sex since the fetus moved when Ana and Christian were having sex, and Christian sucked melted popcicle off their toddler son's fingers and turned Ana on. The way Christian described a 10-year-old girl is even more disturbing.

Unlike Harry Potter magic, real people can reenact Fifty Shades, and real people are thinking that that shit is normal and acceptable because society keeps saying Christian Grey is the ideal man.

[DGayle]

50 Shades of Grey is possible the most disrespectful porn I've ever seen. Have you actually read any of it? The idea that this level of writing is what women want in erotica is an insult to the intelligence of women everywhere.

I think the big insult to the intelligence of women is that this bullshit trilogy are the fastest selling books of all time, and have only been outsold by the bible. :angry-banghead:

[DGayle]

it seems really ignorant to conflate all BDSM with women being degraded. It completely ignores BDSM practices between same sex partners or fem dom/male sub partners. I don't see anyone wringing their hands about poor menz who are getting spanked by their wife.

In real BDSM, where there's real consent, it's almost a misnomer to call a submissive a submissive since the sub has the power to stop a scene. When I was in it, I like someone else being in control and calling the shots since it was so in opposition to my life outside the bedroom or playroom or club or wherever we were, that is was a nice let-down from the daily grind of always having to be on the ball, making tough decisions for people. But I also had 100% of the power if I wanted to stop or nix something. So in real BDSM, subs have a lot more power that it seems like. Fifty Shades did it so very wrong that it really is not BDSM at all, just abuse calling itself BDSM because EL James doesn't know that BDSM isn't beating someone against their will and ignoring when they plead for you to not force sex on them.

[Rebelwife]

Yeah that! I think the main issue that we have driver's education classes and people learn how to drive safely and if they don't they can get fined, arrested or even go to jail depending on the offense. There are so many traffic cameras in my neighborhood, it's borderline police state. It's very easy to see how stunt driving is not realistic.

Meanwhile sex education in our culture is often crappy, most of it is abstinence only, even comprehensive sex education does not do enough to teach people about consent and sex for pleasure. It doesn't suprise me that people often turn to porn to learn about sex. I don't think it's fair to blame pornography, people just need to be less stupid.

I do think a compounding factor is the the line between professional and amateur porn is really blurred given that all you need is a smart phone or webcam and you can make porn these days. it can be a lot harder to figure out what is real and what is not real in pornography. It is more important to educate people about consent and about talking to your partner about what they like/dislike instead of acting out some pornography with them because you don't have any idea how sex actually works.

Another thought- I don't know if this is result of how 50 Shades portrayed one specific kind of BDSM (very very badly I might add) but it seems really ignorant to conflate all BDSM with women being degraded. It completely ignores BDSM practices between same sex partners or fem dom/male sub partners. I don't see anyone wringing their hands about poor menz who are getting spanked by their wife.

I think the bolded part is too simplistic, though. I worry that because porn has become so much more accessible (hello internet) and mainstream it is also the first exposure to sex for many young people. I do think that can set up very unrealistic expectations of what people look like, what they like sexually and how sexual relationships develop. Teenagers seeing stunt driving in action movies have been exposed to "real" driving for years before seeing these scenes - they know what they're seeing is exaggerated. They don't have the same experience with sex.

My husband I enjoy (some) porn and probably share more kinks than the average couple. On the other hand, we've explored those things together as our relationship evolved and we know what's real and what is just for effect in the movies we've seen and the stories we've read. Neither of us were virgins when we got together and I have every hope and expectation that my daughters will explore their sexual selves in their own time. I just worry that sexting and internet porn and similar things will come too soon - before they've truly developed a healthy sense of what sex looks like for them.

[Firiel]

In real BDSM, where there's real consent, it's almost a misnomer to call a submissive a submissive since the sub has the power to stop a scene. When I was in it, I like someone else being in control and calling the shots since it was so in opposition to my life outside the bedroom or playroom or club or wherever we were, that is was a nice let-down from the daily grind of always having to be on the ball, making tough decisions for people. But I also had 100% of the power if I wanted to stop or nix something. So in real BDSM, subs have a lot more power that it seems like. Fifty Shades did it so very wrong that it really is not BDSM at all, just abuse calling itself BDSM because EL James doesn't know that BDSM isn't beating someone against their will and ignoring when they plead for you to not force sex on them.

I would be interested in how real BDSM erotica would be received by pop culture-- one that really reflects the safeguards set up by BDSM culture where consent is always the first and final thing considered. Sadly, I don't think it would be the runaway hit that Fifty Shades was.

I'll be honest-- it really scares me that abusive relationships like those in Fifty Shades and Twilight are still romanticized, not even primarily by men but by millions of women. It makes me feel like we haven't made as much progress in the realm of gender equality as we like to think we have...

[Knight of Ni]

I only got through it because I thought it couldn't get worse, and it kept getting worse, and the epilogue is very pedophilic, with Ana becoming so twisted she says that their unborn daughter must already like sex since the fetus moved when Ana and Christian were having sex, and Christian sucked melted popcicle off their toddler son's fingers and turned Ana on. The way Christian described a 10-year-old girl is even more disturbing.

Unlike Harry Potter magic, real people can reenact Fifty Shades, and real people are thinking that that shit is normal and acceptable because society keeps saying Christian Grey is the ideal man.

:pink-shock: That is absolutely horrifying. I started reading these things during a plane trip to Ghana. A classmate had it on her iPad and not having anything else to do I started reading it. During the trip I managed to make it halfway through the second book before I stopped, preferring to do nothing rather than keep reading. I am so glad i missed that part. That is worse than the imprinting scenes in Twilight.

All this is reminding me of a guy I dated for way too long. The more I look back and view some of the things he said and did I realize that he held some of the views that a Christian Grey type would. (He would also threaten to kill himself whenever he would get angry over something I did). I see now that it was all a form of control. It would take much more time to detail everything he did and said that I now find disturbing. One thing I will say is that his father was physically (and more than likely mentally) abusive to his mother. Like father like son.