The Warrior Wives of Evangelical Christianity

[neuroticcat]

Has this been discussed yet?

An interesting read exploring the idea of sex and gender and expectations within evangelical Christianity. Duggars and Quiverfull are mentioned as well as mainstream evangelical Christian ideas.

Not breaking the link because it's The Atlantic:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ty/382365/

[jerkit]

I am unbelievably weary of the Christian woman mantra "men always want sex more than women. Wives, suffer through sex because it's not for you."

For a very long time in my evangelical days, I felt like a whoreish whorey whore because I enjoyed and desired frequent sex.

[feministxtian]

this bothered me the most

"Perhaps more troublingly, when these pastors actually did encounter domestic abuse in their congregations, many dealt with it in a "dangerous or even potentially lethal" way, according to the study's authors.

"The top priority in sexual and domestic violence should be to ensure the immediate safety of victims or potential victims," they write. "For example, counseling someone to remain at home with their abusive spouse or partner and 'work it out' can potentially lead to devastating consequences for the safety and health of the victim and others in the home." Yet, 62 percent of pastors reported that they had addressed issues of domestic abuse by providing private marriage counseling to couples."

[PennySycamore]

My husband is an Anglican priest (which is weird since I'm Buddhist/atheist) and they have mandatory education on domestic abuse every year. I hope that it's good and realizes that sometimes the right thing to do is to get out and get safe.

[BrownieMomma]

I am unbelievably weary of the Christian woman mantra "men always want sex more than women. Wives, suffer through sex because it's not for you."

For a very long time in my evangelical days, I felt like a whoreish whorey whore because I enjoyed and desired frequent sex.

That is genuinely so sad. No wife should have to feel apologetic for enjoying sex.

[RachelB]

That is genuinely so sad. No wife should have to feel apologetic for enjoying sex.

Nor should anyone have to have sex that they don't want. It's bad news all around for one party in a marriage to have to ignore what she wants all the time.

[jerkit]

That is genuinely so sad. No wife should have to feel apologetic for enjoying sex.

But that is all these Christian marriage books say: men want sex all the time and women need to put up with that.

These books all make it seem like it's inconceivable for a woman to have a high sex drive and enjoy sex. Only sluts do that.

[FloraKitty35]

But that is all these Christian marriage books say: men want sex all the time and women need to put up with that.

These books all make it seem like it's inconceivable for a woman to have a high sex drive and enjoy sex. Only sluts do that.

The victorian era logic at work, always ironic since Queen Victoria LOVED SEX and was rather unabashed about that fact.

[BrownieMomma]

This aspect of sex and Christianity really befuddles me. All when I was growing up, people just didn't talk about it much, certainly not in great detail. I never got the feeling that women aren't supposed to like sex, it was always just a private thing between husband and wife.

It's okay to like sex. it's also okay to not want it and not have to do it.

I'm now thinking there is a source of unneeded unhappiness in this world due to this attitude that men like it, want it all the time, women don't but need to give it up to keep hubs happy.

It's not a good thing for men to have such a selfish view of sex. It's not Christian, no not really. No one is put here on this earth in order to live for you.

[ariel9]

I can't get over how oppressive this is. I feel like by giving strict rules by what demeanor makes someone a man or woman excludes a lot of people. I feel bad that women are encouraged to put up with abuse and submit. In addition to this premarital sex may not be a evil thing. I mean at least you would know if you enjoy sex with somebody upfront rather then know for sure that you hate it when it's too late. I mean why pray for desire when you can just seek someone you feel that way about in the first place. Not to mention if desire never comes you still have to submit. Also these Christian sex guides rub me the wrong way, the only rule there needs to be for sex is consent.

[VelociRapture]

I am unbelievably weary of the Christian woman mantra "men always want sex more than women. Wives, suffer through sex because it's not for you."

For a very long time in my evangelical days, I felt like a whoreish whorey whore because I enjoyed and desired frequent sex.

I'm not Christian, but I do think that most men do have a higher sex drive than most women do. Not all by any means, but I know that is true in my own relationship. Does that mean women should have to just suffer through it whenever their guy wants it? Absolutely not. Does that mean that women can't enjoy sex or that all women have zero desire for it? Nope, not at all. It's different for everyone and the fact that those people attempt to force everyone (including yourself) into the same way of thinking is wrong.

I think it's shameful that there are people out there who attempt to make consensual sex seem like a dirty or bad thing. When two adults both consent it is a natural and beautiful thing. I have no clue why they make it such a big deal, but the only reason I can think of is for control purposes.

[Firiel]

I'm not Christian, but I do think that most men do have a higher sex drive than most women do. Not all by any means, but I know that is true in my own relationship. Does that mean women should have to just suffer through it whenever their guy wants it? Absolutely not. Does that mean that women can't enjoy sex or that all women have zero desire for it? Nope, not at all. It's different for everyone and the fact that those people attempt to force everyone (including yourself) into the same way of thinking is wrong.

I think it's shameful that there are people out there who attempt to make consensual sex seem like a dirty or bad thing. When two adults both consent it is a natural and beautiful thing. I have no clue why they make it such a big deal, but the only reason I can think of is for control purposes.

I'm not sure I buy the "men typically have a higher sex drive than women" argument. That's the common social understanding, sure, but I'm not sure it's reflected in reality. I've never seen any peer-reviewed scientific studies addressing it. When I was married, I was reading a book for folks struggling with their sex life (not a Christian book-- one written by a real, live psychologist/therapist who specialized in that area. He said that in his experience (anecdotal, but professional), it was just as likely to be the woman as the man with the lower drive.

Does anyone know of any studies that explore this?

[BrownieMomma]

I can't get over how oppressive this is. I feel like by giving strict rules by what demeanor makes someone a man or woman excludes a lot of people. I feel bad that women are encouraged to put up with abuse and submit. In addition to this premarital sex may not be a evil thing. I mean at least you would know if you enjoy sex with somebody upfront rather then know for sure that you hate it when it's too late. I mean why pray for desire when you can just seek someone you feel that way about in the first place. Not to mention if desire never comes you still have to submit. Also these Christian sex guides rub me the wrong way, the only rule there needs to be for sex is consent.

Premarital sex is a sin called fornication. Instead of attempting to convince any Christians that it is really not a sin, I think it would be more productive to focus on things like sex is okay, it is not inherently dirty or wrong, it is okay to like sex, it is okay to have a different sex drive than your partner, it is okay to satisfy that by other means such as masturbation. An enjoyable, healthy, give-and-take sexual situation within marriage is ok!

Which, just sayin, Dr. James Dobson is all for boys masturbating. No clue if he thinks it is okay for females. Funny how that never gets addressed.

[MamaJunebug]

Browniemama wrote,

"It's not a good thing for men to have such a selfish view of sex. It's not Christian, no not really. No one is put here on this earth in order to live for you."

Migosh, this!!! The thing I'm hearing in ultra-conservative lutheran conversation is "order of creation" BS. "Because God created male before female, a universal rule of primogeniture applies. Again, BS, and used simply to reinforce the male dominance.

That's all I have right now. I need to watch my mental palate-cleanser, "Alaska The Last Frontier." Not without its dinosaurish moments, but the Kilcher men appreciate and respect the Kilcher women. And NOBODY tries to work in a Gawdammed ankle-length skirt.

[BrownieMomma]

Yes, okay so God made a male. Then He realized that was an inadequate situation so He created a female from the side of Adam, from his rib.

Both are equally important.

Ugh. This whole thing is giving me a headache.

[doggie]

and we wonder why evangelical christians have a higher divorce rate. talk about talking one for the team.

[VelociRapture]

I'm not sure I buy the "men typically have a higher sex drive than women" argument. That's the common social understanding, sure, but I'm not sure it's reflected in reality. I've never seen any peer-reviewed scientific studies addressing it. When I was married, I was reading a book for folks struggling with their sex life (not a Christian book-- one written by a real, live psychologist/therapist who specialized in that area. He said that in his experience (anecdotal, but professional), it was just as likely to be the woman as the man with the lower drive.

Does anyone know of any studies that explore this?

Probably should have mentioned I was basing that more off personal experience than anything. Lol!

Maybe people think that way because it can be easier for men to become aroused than women? That had to do with biology - back in caveman days people had to reproduce fast or else they would be at greater risk of becoming dinner for some animal, so easier arousal for men could make sense in that sense.

(Fun fact: we learned in Psych that men's brains actually stay more aware of their surroundings during sex than women's. Scientists think that happens because of evolution and the need for one partner to be able to protect the other if needed)

[RosyDaisy]

Evangelical Christian chiming in here: We are not all that way. I was never taught that women enjoying sex was a bad or dirty thing. I was taught that sex was a beautiful, natural, and enjoyable gift from God that may or may not lead to having children. Those who teach that enjoying sex is a bad thing are indeed looking for control and are just plain messed up in the head.

[samismad]

From what I've noticed with friends, family and my own experience (including secular, Christian, married, and single people) women's sex drives are more tied to their physical state. So a tired woman is less likely to desire sex than a tired man, etc.

Which makes sense from a survivalist point of view - a woman who's exhausted (from anything) in the days of early humans is not likely to be able to successfully raise a child to maturity and there's a lot of effort, energy etc expended in every step of the child bearing and rearing process. Energy that in early human situations would be more suited to keeping the female alive longer. Males don't have the same cost, especially in the pregnancy and immediate post-birth period - even the most dedicated and caring of men. Hence there's not the same biological advantage to lower sex drive (especially if there are multiple partners involved).

So for many fundies and evangelicals, who are often raising a large number of children, often with women trying to make extra money from home or save money in extreme ways, and serving in church etc - this makes sense. The women are more likely to have lower sex drives than the men because they're pretty darn tired from raising kids, and their bodies are trying to give them a bit of breathing space.

[DGayle]

But the question is still troubling: If women are Biblically commanded to submit to their husbands, and their husbands were created by God as aggressive creatures, what's the line between "household leadership" and "abuse"? More importantly, how should evangelical women respond when they think their husbands have crossed that line?

John Piper, a Baptist preacher and the founder of the website Desiring God, answered this question in a video interview in 2009. This is a man who has published more than 50 books, and who serves as chancellor of a Christian college; he has 675,000 followers on Twitter.

Here is what he said.

:angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

[salex]

:angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

Isn't John Piper the person who Ian and Marissa follow-- who helped turn their wedding video into a sales pitch for one of his books? What a charmer he is.

[DGayle]

I'm not sure I buy the "men typically have a higher sex drive than women" argument. That's the common social understanding, sure, but I'm not sure it's reflected in reality. I've never seen any peer-reviewed scientific studies addressing it. When I was married, I was reading a book for folks struggling with their sex life (not a Christian book-- one written by a real, live psychologist/therapist who specialized in that area. He said that in his experience (anecdotal, but professional), it was just as likely to be the woman as the man with the lower drive.

Does anyone know of any studies that explore this?

I think this is still widely believe because sex drive has been tied, to a degree, to testosterone, which men have a lot more of than women. But this can't be all of it. Even with lower testosterone, women can be very, very much horndogs, as I used to be (my drive was so high it caused problems in a past relationship with a boyfriend who felt inadequate because he was raised evangelical, though became atheist, and held on to the believe that men as supposed to want it more). Doctors don't know what is responsible for female arousal, though they know that hormones can get to be off, which can have something to due with it (we figured out this was happening to me), but they don't know how to treat it without increasing cancer risks. So all they know is more testosterone usually means more of a sex drive than people with lower sex drives, but who the hell knows when it comes to women.