"Obama Care" for the Seewald's?

[Mama Mia]

Sorry Brownie Momma, that really sucks. In our small office we had one year where several employees had an age band birthday :shock: it was horrible! That's why, at least in my state they have being over 40 as one of the traits covered under anti-discrimination laws. But of course it's really easy for employers to find another reason if they want someone out. The whole insurance thing is ridiculous. If an employer only has to pay $400 a month for health insurance for a 25 year old, but $1600 for a 50 year old you are going to end up with a lot of experienced workers left in the dirt. Why on earth should the cost of health care have to be a factor in hiring decisions? And it really screws small businesses, who pay per individual employee, instead of a huge group at one, lower, rate. So, like everything, favors conglomerates. There have been some credits aimed to help even it out and help businesses with the cost -- but it's a drop in the bucket.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

So a married 23 year old can still be covered under their parents insurance plan? That seems very backwards to me.

While I think that Obamacare was well intentioned- I think most Americans were beyond shocked to see what is considered "Affordable". We are now seeing premiums and co-pays skyrocket and the hoops you have to jump through are ridiculous.

I recently watched a documentary about how the drug companies work here in the USA- I think it was called American Addict. It was fascinating to see how drugs that are unsafe make it on the market and how a pill is the first thing everyone reaches for.

[Mama Mia]

So a married 23 year old can still be covered under their parents insurance plan? That seems very backwards to me.

While I think that Obamacare was well intentioned- I think most Americans were beyond shocked to see what is considered "Affordable". We are now seeing premiums and co-pays skyrocket and the hoops you have to jump through are ridiculous.

I recently watched a documentary about how the drug companies work here in the USA- I think it was called American Addict. It was fascinating to see how drugs that are unsafe make it on the market and how a pill is the first thing everyone reaches for.

I'm curious, why do you think it's backwards for young adults to still be covered under their parents if married? Other than the whole system being ridiculous, of course.

The premiums sky-rocketed in large part because there was a phased in cap on the percentage of insurance company income could go to profits, as opposed to going to actual health care. So in the period leading up to the cap ( which may still be being phased in, I'm out of the loop now that I'm disabled) --- the insurance companies jacked up everything through the roof -- so they still get their big, fat profit.

[MatthewDuggar]

I think that I am one of the few that the Healthcare Reform Act has worked for. I was able to get a fairly low monthly premium, low deductible, major company, so lots of "in network" doctors. I am single so that helps, but I have a pre-exisiting condition, that requires me to have to go to 2 specialists regularly and a primary care doctor. I recently switched from being in the corporate world to going freelance and would have been screwed trying to get insurance on my own.

[Mama Mia]

I think that I am one of the few that the Healthcare Reform Act has worked for. I was able to get a fairly low monthly premium, low deductible, major company, so lots of "in network" doctors. I am single so that helps, but I have a pre-exisiting condition, that requires me to have to go to 2 specialists regularly and a primary care doctor. I recently switched from being in the corporate world to going freelance and would have been screwed trying to get insurance on my own.

Oh I definitely think it's helped lots of people. Half our kids would have had no insurance in their early/mid twenties if it weren't for the increased age limit and removal of dependent/student requirements. They worked, but their jobs didn't provide coverage. Which is really common. And the subsidies help a lot of people pay less than they would of had to otherwise. Plus great things like covering breast pumps, expanding Medicaid to adults and increasing the income cut off ( unless you live in a jerk state) .

Not being denied insurance for pre-existing conditions is great. My mom's best friend died because she couldn't get a surgery she needed - no coverage because she had been severely ill decades before.

I just don't like the entire premises of health care being, basically, employment based -- and being so ridiculously expensive, that makes no sense to me. The co-pays and deductibles alone can keep people from getting life saving care.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

I'm curious, why do you think it's backwards for young adults to still be covered under their parents if married? Other than the whole system being ridiculous, of course.

The premiums sky-rocketed in large part because there was a phased in cap on the percentage of insurance company income could go to profits, as opposed to going to actual health care. So in the period leading up to the cap ( which may still be being phased in, I'm out of the loop now that I'm disabled) --- the insurance companies jacked up everything through the roof -- so they still get their big, fat profit.

It just seems like you should be grown enough to have your own insurance before you get married and possibly start popping out kids of your own. But I see an increasing number of young adults who live at home after graduating from college. How else could they afford to lease that BMW or Mercedes and take 2-3 vacations a year? I lived at home all of 8 weeks after I graduated from High School and have never even spent the night at my parents house since. Maybe some parents are making it little a little too cozy for Junior or Precious to come home after college.....

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since I had a Mom call me to confirm her sons interview for a job a few weeks ago and asked me what he should wear to the interview. :doh: The applicant had who recently graduated from college and this was an interview for a corporate position. Just very strange to me.

[CallmeChaCha]

It just seems like you should be grown enough to have your own insurance before you get married and possibly start popping out kids of your own. But I see an increasing number of young adults who live at home after graduating from college. How else could they afford to lease that BMW or Mercedes and take 2-3 vacations a year? I lived at home all of 8 weeks after I graduated from High School and have never even spent the night at my parents house since. Maybe some parents are making it little a little too cozy for Junior or Precious to come home after college.....

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since I had a Mom call me to confirm her sons interview for a job a few weeks ago and asked me what he should wear to the interview. :doh: The applicant had who recently graduated from college and this was an interview for a corporate position. Just very strange to me.

A lot of young adults still live at home because they can't afford to live on their own after high school because pay is low and rent is high, and can't afford it after college because pay is low, rent is high, and student loan debt is crippling. One or two (or even a handful) of people you've encountered who drive BMW's while still living at home does not make all of us "irresponsible" (my word, not yours). It's possible their parents gave them that BMW. My roommate freshmen year of college was driving a BMW. I'm pretty sure she didn't buy that car. It's also possible that two young people decided to elope during college, thinking they would have a decent job with decent benefits once they graduated but then it turns out the economy is still in the gutter and decent jobs with decent benefits are difficult to come by. So, they decide to go on their parents' insurance. Or the insurance is now way too high because they make 'too much' after graduating college and getting a so-so paying job, and it's much cheaper to get on their parents' insurance while they get on their feet and pay down some of that student loan debt. Just because adult, married children have the option of being covered under their parents' insurance doesn't mean they're necessarily all still on their parents' insurance and popping out kids to boot.

[Tallula.Belle]

We have BCBS as my husband works for the government and you can keep your children, married or not, on your plan until they are 26.

[grandmadugger]

We have BCBS as my husband works for the government and you can keep your children, married or not, on your plan until they are 26.

My dad's insurance, he was railroad, was the same. They even covered me after he passed, it was one of the death benefits. I remained with them until I was "of age" and then moved over to my husband's insurance. The kicker is he is now government, lot more coverage now than when he was working in the private sector but we have to purchase a family plan. The have employee, employee & children, or family. I'm always willing to adopt anyone who needs some coverage or extra coverage. It's pretty amazing but it should be for what it costs us.

[Tallula.Belle]

We are very grateful to have BCBS Fed as my husband was diagnosed with cancer last year. We paid less than $500 out of pocket, which was amazing.

[DGayle]

This also does not include my kids which are insured separate. Jim Bob brags that 1 kid or 19 his rates were the same for a family plan. Well Jim Bob come to Utah. I have 2 kids if I choose a family plan I would be paying as if I had 6 or 8. Back when my husband and I got our plan at $290 for my husband and myself , if I got a family plan it would have been over $800. Instead I bought separate IHC(the big HMO in Utah) plans for my kids for $111 a month. The plan was meant for kids of divorce and now has been stopped(one of my kids is grandfathered in). I saved between $4-5k a year on premiums for almost a decade by buying individual plans for my kids. I don't think Jim Bob realize his 19 kids for one price or kids eat free is absorbed by those of us that have a smaller family size.

When our first was born, adding her to our insurance would have bumped our very comprehensive plan from $121/mo to almost $700/mo. So we did the same thing you did by getting a separate private plan though the state, which ended up coming with a deductible of $0. We expected to qualify at the $200-rate, so were surprised as $0. Our second also has the same plan. And then Obamacare kicked in, and my husband's and my rate went down a little, and our already great coverage levels went up. So we came out on top all around, but wouldn't have if I hadn't thought to see if we could qualify for the state plan for the kids. That was when I learned that we were heavily subsidizing the people like JB who have tons of kids. It pissed me off, to be quite honest. I get that insurance is all about paying in so whoever needs it can get coverage, but when it comes to kids, I think it's taking advantage to have a couple baseball teams of kids and then brag about not paying more than people with 1 kid while also getting to enjoy tax write rebates for all those kids.

[DGayle]

Yeah, it really is ridiculous. And while the Affordable Care Act did have some good provisions --- no more denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, coverage of young adults under parents plan, some subsidies and expansion of benefits for low income people in states that chose to participate......IMHO it really missed the boat in general. Health care is still in the hands of the insurance companies. And insurance is still tied to employment. And it's still very, very expensive. For both the individual, and for the employer. Which means many employers can't afford to have people work full time. This happened to one of my kids. People talk about huge employers just not wanting to cut into their profits. But for many small employers it really can be cost prohibitive. When I was an employer we provided comprehensive health insurance for all our employees --- we had to pay $1,800 a month for our one employee who was over 55.

Thanks to the GOP, it was this or nothing. I recall Obama wanted a universal program, but the GOP said no, and this was the middle ground, based on Romneycare. A universal plan would be ideal, where everyone has basic coverage for existing, and you can get private coverage for additional things, but it's not going to happen without getting a strong Dem majority in the senate and congress, as a Dem president at the start of a first term who can stay in office for both terms. Since the GOP now has both senate and congress, we're screwed out of any chance to see universal, and if we end up with a Republican president next term, I'm terrified we'll lose not only the ACA as we know it, but a lot of medical rights too.

[treemom]

So a married 23 year old can still be covered under their parents insurance plan? That seems very backwards to me.

While I think that Obamacare was well intentioned- I think most Americans were beyond shocked to see what is considered "Affordable". We are now seeing premiums and co-pays skyrocket and the hoops you have to jump through are ridiculous.

I recently watched a documentary about how the drug companies work here in the USA- I think it was called American Addict. It was fascinating to see how drugs that are unsafe make it on the market and how a pill is the first thing everyone reaches for.

No, they were always skyrocketing. It just so happens it is being blamed on ACA

[Mama Mia]

It just seems like you should be grown enough to have your own insurance before you get married and possibly start popping out kids of your own. But I see an increasing number of young adults who live at home after graduating from college. How else could they afford to lease that BMW or Mercedes and take 2-3 vacations a year? I lived at home all of 8 weeks after I graduated from High School and have never even spent the night at my parents house since. Maybe some parents are making it little a little too cozy for Junior or Precious to come home after college.....

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since I had a Mom call me to confirm her sons interview for a job a few weeks ago and asked me what he should wear to the interview. :doh: The applicant had who recently graduated from college and this was an interview for a corporate position. Just very strange to me.

Seriously? I don't know what planet you live on - but :

1) Just a general FYI: The majority of U.S. Adults don't graduate from college. It seems to be a common belief ( at least on this site) that everyone but fundamentalists attend college, but there is NO state in the U.S. where more than 50% of adults ( over 25) have a college degree. None. Many are down around 25%.

2) Many, many, many entry level jobs don't provide health insurance. Many entry level jobs work people less than full-time because they would be required to provide health insurance. Also, many young people work at self-employed type jobs -- construction, landscaping, in-home childcare, selling stuff on line etc.. Purchasing your own insurance while self-employed can be ridiculously expensive.

3) Currently 30+% of adults aged 18-35 live at home. Including 15% of adults aged 25-34 -- do you really think there are that many BMW driving, vacation taking spoiled college graduates out there?? Or children of helicopter parents? Or stay at home daughters/sons?

4) I don't know where you live, but the average 1 bedroom apartment in my town is running about $1,500 a month. That's a whole lot of cash for your average 20 something.

5) I don't get the whole idea behind wanting to cut your kids off the second they turn 18 or graduate college. I had them cause I like them, I enjoy their company -- why would that change once they are an official adult? If they need help financially, and I can provide it -- why wouldn't I? Obviously that could get excessive if you have a greedy kid -- but as long as they are doing something useful and working towards their goals -- why wouldn't I want to help them out?

6) I totally get that problems can come up if you have slacker young adults ( been there, done that, have the t-shirt) , or in setting boundaries ( another t-shirt in my closet) -- but if you all get along - why not have them live at home? It's really not the norm with all groups to have young adults move out into their own separate spaces. I mean I wouldn't force them to either stay home, or to leave, if everything is going well. It should, IMHO, be what works best for each individual.

7) also if you look at un and under employment rates -- young people ( particularly young men) took the biggest hit, and are having the most difficulty, following the economic crash.

8) Also, even if you have issues with direct financial support, or young adults living at home -- that's still a far cry from just having your adult kids on a health plan that's already being provided by your employer and/or you're already paying for.

[eh02]

The ACA would be much more streamlined if bits and pieces of it weren't torn apart by Republicans and SCOTUS. Medicaid expansion has been a nightmare since essentially every southern state has refused to do it. Medicaid expansion was one of the cornerstone pieces of the ACA and removing the requirement was a huge mistake IMO.

A lot of people also were upset their rates went up because they stayed on exactly the same plan, but if you are willing to shop around, most (not all) people can actually find plans for the same or lower than what they paid in the past with a big-name provider (like Aetna).

Probably the best thing about the ACA is that it puts a cap on the profit margins of insurance companies. People tend to forget how important that really is. There should be a limit to how much you can profit off peoples' ill health, and I'm really glad we finally have some policy that supports that.

Personally, I have family members and friends with cancer and type 1 diabetes who were underemployed pre-ACA (no insurance options from their employer) who had no health insurance and now do. The fact that only two years ago you could be a type 1 diabetic making $9/hr with a 30 hour capped part-time week at Target or McDonalds and would have to pay hundreds of dollars every month (on that incredibly low salary) just to have drugs that you will die without...it's just despicable. My type 1 diabetic friend was on her parents' insurance from birth to 26, and then she was dropped and couldn't get reapproved for not only that plan, but for ANY plan, pre-ACA. It makes absolutely no sense from a policy perspective not to help provide relatively inexpensive drugs like insulin now vs. having to pay for expensive surgeries and medical procedures years later when people have very serious, disabling complications from their neglected health problems and end up on Medicaid.

Personally, I'm more than willing to have a rate hike to make sure people who need it (and maybe me someday) will have access to what they need. I don't particularly want to live in a society that doesn't value other peoples' health. And having sick people who can't go to work or school or provide for their families is NOT good for the economy or our overall quality of life!

[Mama Mia]

The ACA would be much more streamlined if bits and pieces of it weren't torn apart by Republicans and SCOTUS. Medicaid expansion has been a nightmare since essentially every southern state has refused to do it. Medicaid expansion was one of the cornerstone pieces of the ACA and removing the requirement was a huge mistake IMO.

A lot of people also were upset their rates went up because they stayed on exactly the same plan, but if you are willing to shop around, most (not all) people can actually find plans for the same or lower than what they paid in the past with a big-name provider (like Aetna).

Probably the best thing about the ACA is that it puts a cap on the profit margins of insurance companies. People tend to forget how important that really is. There should be a limit to how much you can profit off peoples' ill health, and I'm really glad we finally have some policy that supports that.

Personally, I have family members and friends with cancer and type 1 diabetes who were underemployed pre-ACA (no insurance options from their employer) who had no health insurance and now do. The fact that only two years ago you could be a type 1 diabetic making $9/hr with a 30 hour capped part-time week at Target or McDonalds and would have to pay hundreds of dollars every month (on that incredibly low salary) just to have drugs that you will die without...it's just despicable. My type 1 diabetic friend was on her parents' insurance from birth to 26, and then she was dropped and couldn't get reapproved for not only that plan, but for ANY plan, pre-ACA. It makes absolutely no sense from a policy perspective not to help provide relatively inexpensive drugs like insulin now vs. having to pay for expensive surgeries and medical procedures years later when people have very serious, disabling complications from their neglected health problems and end up on Medicaid.

Personally, I'm more than willing to have a rate hike to make sure people who need it (and maybe me someday) will have access to what they need. I don't particularly want to live in a society that doesn't value other peoples' health. And having sick people who can't go to work or school or provide for their families is NOT good for the economy or our overall quality of life!

I agree with almost all of this. I think the ACA has been far better than nothing. But , I think there is a tendency to paint Obama as far more liberal than he actually is. Which makes sense, given how The right generally considers him a communist. But in actuality, he is a moderate. And I really don't recall him doing any pushing for anything that could of been considered anywhere close to Universal Health Care. Actually, I recall being really pissed off about it at the time -- because the economic crisis would of been the perfect opportunity to add an actual, real tangible public benefit - like Universal Health Care. Just as Roosevelt was able to impliment the New Deal due to the Depression. And there are many aspects of the ACA that actually strengthen the hold of insurance companies, and of employers over employees.

[eh02]

I agree with almost all of this. I think the ACA has been far better than nothing. But , I think there is a tendency to paint Obama as far more liberal than he actually is. Which makes sense, given how The right generally considers him a communist. But in actuality, he is a moderate. And I really don't recall him doing any pushing for anything that could of been considered anywhere close to Universal Health Care. Actually, I recall being really pissed off about it at the time -- because the economic crisis would of been the perfect opportunity to add an actual, real tangible public benefit - like Universal Health Care. Just as Roosevelt was able to impliment the New Deal due to the Depression. And there are many aspects of the ACA that actually strengthen the hold of insurance companies, and of employers over employees.

As a public health worker, I have kind of mixed feelings about it. Generally speaking, in his presidency as a whole, I agree that Obama has been far less liberal than he probably led on back in 2008. That said, I think the ACA was about as could as we could get right now, and that we're already seeing benefits from its passing even with all of the cuts and changes.

A true "universal" health care plan would not have passed during his terms IMO, so it would have probably been a waste to even try. And it would have been a serious mess to implement right now. I do think we will have it eventually, but I think it is going to have to be a more gradual change, probably by transitioning some state models.

States rights are always going to be a priority in the US; people are very uneasy about federal anything, especially federal healthcare, which so many are convinced will be "death panels" and "long lines so you can never actually see a doctor." And, honestly, when you look at what a mess Medicaid and Medicare and just healthcare in the US in general is, I can see why they're uneasy, but I think most don't realize that healthcare prices go WAY down in countries with national healthcare systems because they are just inherently forced to.

National healthcare systems won't invest in things that aren't effective and cost-saving. They're forced to invest in prevention programs because it saves them money long-term. That's why, in the US, we spend WAY more per person on healthcare with much worse outcomes. There's just no guideline for efficiency, and it's why there are so many known cost-saving programs in the US (ahem...federally funded contraception programs...) that are underfunded or cut completely despite the fact that they end up producing HUGE savings by keeping people off Medicaid.

I'm not sure that private insurance is necessarily the problem in itself in the US - it's more the lack of regulation of insurance and huge public health failures at the policy level at the federal, state and county levels. Healthcare shouldn't be politicized and it shouldn't be treated as a lucrative source of financial profit.

I'll get off my soapbox though :D This is my soft spot and in no way is it related to the Duggars anymore...

[nst]

they could move to Canada - it's way easier here - msp :D

[SassyPants]

Seriously? I don't know what planet you live on - but :

1) Just a general FYI: The majority of U.S. Adults don't graduate from college. It seems to be a common belief ( at least on this site) that everyone but fundamentalists attend college, but there is NO state in the U.S. where more than 50% of adults ( over 25) have a college degree. None. Many are down around 25%.

2) Many, many, many entry level jobs don't provide health insurance. Many entry level jobs work people less than full-time because they would be required to provide health insurance. Also, many young people work at self-employed type jobs -- construction, landscaping, in-home childcare, selling stuff on line etc.. Purchasing your own insurance while self-employed can be ridiculously expensive.

3) Currently 30+% of adults aged 18-35 live at home. Including 15% of adults aged 25-34 -- do you really think there are that many BMW driving, vacation taking spoiled college graduates out there?? Or children of helicopter parents? Or stay at home daughters/sons?

4) I don't know where you live, but the average 1 bedroom apartment in my town is running about $1,500 a month. That's a whole lot of cash for your average 20 something.

5) I don't get the whole idea behind wanting to cut your kids off the second they turn 18 or graduate college. I had them cause I like them, I enjoy their company -- why would that change once they are an official adult? If they need help financially, and I can provide it -- why wouldn't I? Obviously that could get excessive if you have a greedy kid -- but as long as they are doing something useful and working towards their goals -- why wouldn't I want to help them out?

6) I totally get that problems can come up if you have slacker young adults ( been there, done that, have the t-shirt) , or in setting boundaries ( another t-shirt in my closet) -- but if you all get along - why not have them live at home? It's really not the norm with all groups to have young adults move out into their own separate spaces. I mean I wouldn't force them to either stay home, or to leave, if everything is going well. It should, IMHO, be what works best for each individual.

7) also if you look at un and under employment rates -- young people ( particularly young men) took the biggest hit, and are having the most difficulty, following the economic crash.

8) Also, even if you have issues with direct financial support, or young adults living at home -- that's still a far cry from just having your adult kids on a health plan that's already being provided by your employer and/or you're already paying for.

Agreed.

My 24 YO college graduated, employed son lives at home- I only live here PT as my hubs is working across the country on a special project. It works well for us, plus he helps out with maintenance and the dog, especially when I am gone. We also live in the SF Bay area of CA- so very expensive. In the meantime, he is saving money like mad-and I don't need the money(I am retired). He has his own HC benefits from his employer. This is how some kids get ahead.

[Tdoc72]

No, they were always skyrocketing. It just so happens it is being blamed on ACA

This!!! A friend at work is always going on about Obamacare raising rates and gets huffy when I remind her that in the past 10 years, I have changed insurance plans about 4-5 times due to costs. She now has a more affordable plan that she couldn't get before because of a serious pre-existing condition. And yet she still rants. :cray-cray:

[SassyPants]

This!!! A friend at work is always going on about Obamacare raising rates and gets huffy when I remind her that in the past 10 years, I have changed insurance plans about 4-5 times due to costs. She now has a more affordable plan that she couldn't get before because of a serious pre-existing condition. And yet she still rants. :cray-cray:

I was a nurse for 34 yrs and had employer provided HC during those years. It always cracks me up when people blame rising costs, increased deductibles and co-pays on the ACA- it seems some people had Cadillac plans until last year. I worked in HC and my plans had gotten progressively more expensive, with me shouldering more of the burden, for the last 15 YEARS. All those who are complaining about their increased costs were lucky to be living in insurance fantasyland for a good long time.

Disclaimer- I think the ACA was an insurance company's dream- just more corporate pandering. We need real HC reform in the US.

[treemom]

My husbands company (a pretty big one) keeps sending out very politicky emails and direct mail talking about how ACA is why they have shitty insurance now because of the Cadillac plans. The problem is, they didn't have just Cadillac plans. Right after the passage of the ACA they eliminated the two middle tiers of mid priced, not cadicallac plans leaving the Cadillac and the CDHDP. And then eliminated everything but the CDhDPs because OMG Cadillac plan penalties. And then blame it on obamacare.

It really pisses me off, because they should just be truthful. Just admit that that they no longer want to bear the costs of higher and higher premiums.

I once pointed this out after a few cocktails to someone who is in a significant position in the company and my husband went whitefaces, apologized for his drunken, opinionated wife and pulled me away. I only halfway regret telling them I was onto their lies.

[SassyPants]

My husbands company (a pretty big one) keeps sending out very politicky emails and direct mail talking about how ACA is why they have shitty insurance now because of the Cadillac plans. The problem is, they didn't have just Cadillac plans. Right after the passage of the ACA they eliminated the two middle tiers of mid priced, not cadicallac plans leaving the Cadillac and the CDHDP. And then eliminated everything but the CDhDPs because OMG Cadillac plan penalties. And then blame it on obamacare.

It really pisses me off, because they should just be truthful. Just admit that that they no longer want to bear the costs of higher and higher premiums.

I once pointed this out after a few cocktails to someone who is in a significant position in the company and my husband went whitefaces, apologized for his drunken, opinionated wife and pulled me away. I only halfway regret telling them I was onto their lies.

Many years ago, at the annual Christmas party {which no longer happen} my hub's boss was complaining about a work related issue, and I said, "that's why they call it work." Every now and again, my husband will pull that answer out of his ass when I complain about something. I still cannot believe I let that one slip.

[treemom]

Many years ago, at the annual Christmas party {which no longer happen} my hub's boss was complaining about a work related issue, and I said, "that's why they call it work." Every now and again, my husband will pull that answer out of his ass when I complain about something. I still cannot believe I let that one slip.

This company did a 5% across the board pay cut several years ago right before Christmas. I informed the CISO how I felt about it. At a party. At her house. While drinking her booze. And my husband's coworkers looking on in mixed horror and awe. (It had been announced either than day or the day before and I think a lot of people had the same feelings I did)