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Developing Your Gifts Within the Family Economy - Botkinette


Columbia

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For this month's edition of "I listen so you don't have to," I decided to cough up and pay for the Botkinette's talk on how daughters can be productive members of the home economy. They mentioned this lecture in their "It's Not About Staying at Home" talk in regards to how to make money without going to college. As most of us have yet to see a fundie wife with a viable business, I wanted to hear what Elizabeth and Anna-Sophia are telling this crop of girls who may be becoming very aware of the pitfalls in traditional Stay-at-Home-Daughterhood. Additions will be made as I finish listening to it.

Elizabeth starts

When we all adopted the stay-at-home-daughter vision there were a few things missing, and for most of us the picture is still incomplete. There are two things missing from the puzzle, and without them the picture doesn’t make a lot of sense.

1) What do you think of when you think of “Biblical femininity?â€

Common buzzwords: modesty, submission, feminine dress, gentle and quiet spirit, being a keeper at home.

Quick breakdown of the virtues mentioned in Proverbs 31: wisdom mentioned once, kindness mentioned once, generosity and strength mentioned twice each, industry and economic productivity mentioned twelve times.

“Her husband will have no lack of gain… she seeks wool and flax and works with willing hands… like the merchant ships… brings food from afar… rises at night and provides food for her household… considers a field and buys it and plants a vineyard… perceives her merchandise is profitable… puts her hand to the distaff and her hands hold the spindle… makes bed coverings… makes linen garments… makes sashes… let her works praise her in the gates.â€

Most of us tended to miss the point that most of the chapter is about this aspect of her character.

E says that she used to read this chapter when she was younger and think “Wow, she did a lot of handcrafts†but the point is that she did a lot of business.

She’s a homemaker, not a career woman, but she’s using every available second to train herself, and be productive. Her husband is experiencing nothing but gain because of this aspect of her character.

We’re missing a huge component of what Biblical feminity was supposed to be about in the first place: industry and gain.

Sometimes it seems like our idea of virtuous womanhood is as far away from work as possible. “And activities inherent femininity often seems measured in how far removed it is from practicality, usefulness, or strenuousness.â€

We’ve forgotten why the woman was created in the first place: not so Adam could have a pretty decoration or someone to keep him company in the garden. Femininity was made to be fit for the man and to help him in his assignment of taking dominion over the earth.

Elizabeth recounts a letter she got from a girl who was worried about the economy going downhill and women having to give up lives of ease in order to work. Elizabeth assures us that Biblical womanhood is not about luxury and ease. “Our axiom should be ‘no lack of gain.’â€

In the Bible daughters helped make the family more economically successful, their value and loss, when given away to a husband were tangible. Daughters had so much worth that in Biblical law a father had to be economically compensated when he gave his daughter to a young man. The man had to give money in recognition of the fact that he was taking away an asset to the family. This idea was “turned on its head†in societies like Jane Austin’s England where fathers had to pay to have their daughters taken. “When girls have no economic value, you can’t give ‘em away.†If your sole economic value is based on how much your father afford then you are in danger, but in societies where work was considered noble, women didn’t have to feel financially helpless or useless. Production instead of pastimes was their way of life, and thus their way of life was never in jeopardy; they used real-world skills every day. E quotes Adam Smith’s book “Wealth of Nations†saying that in Europe a widow with four or five small children would have been considered unmarriageable, but in America she would have been “frequently courted, as a sort of fortune.â€

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2) The concept of the household economy.

Once upon a time nobody asked if a woman should work or stay at home, because all her work was already happening at home, and if she was at home what else would she be doing besides working? In a Biblical society there was no distinction between the home and workplace, the home was the workplace. Parents and children all worked together, based out of the home. “In Biblically based societies like America…†women’s work was done in the fields, barn, workshops, family storefronts, family inn, etc.

A-S shows a picture and explains how the women in the picture were making mass quantities of fabric to sell. She says there are tools and work spaces everywhere. “What you don’t see in this picture is a La-Z-Boy sofa.â€

The home was the place where every member of the family contributed something.

Industrial revolution: separated the family life from the world of work. “… we see the mommy working here, the daddies working here, and the children are working here, unless of course they’re in this new institution called ‘public school’ which has been established by the government because mommy and daddy are not able to be at home to educate any more.â€

In the last 2 centuries the home has been stripped of industry, the care of the elderly, the care of the poor and the needy, education. The women who did not go to work in the factories (“and quite a few of them did notâ€) were left to dust and decorate what was left behind: a place to eat and sleep, rest and recreate. Family living ceased to have a productive side, it was about shared consumption and shelter. This is where the idea of the “angel of the home†developed, and women worked to make their homes shrines of rest from the outside world. This creates a new culture of femininity, “one that was about leisure, entertainment, parties, going shopping, having brunches, a little bit of housework and some handcrafts on the side, maybe playing bridge at Mabel’s, going out to lunch, almost anything but hard work, and labor, and making money.â€

A-S introduces Betty Freidan’s “massively destructive book†and makes sure we know she “really hates†it. Freidan describes the post-war suburban home as a “comfortable concentration camp†where women’s intellect and humanity were destroyed in domestic puttering around. A-S says this is an absurd description of domestic life and concentration camps, but admits that asking “is this all?†is a very legitimate question. “As much as I hate the feminist revolution, I do have a lot of sympathy for the women who found themselves the keepers of what must have been the most depressing place on earth… the children were gone, husbands were gone, all of their meaningful work was gone, and I don’t really blame them for wanting to leave, too.â€

Now it's been a long time since I had an history classes, but I'm pretty sure Anna-Sophia just jumped from the Victorian era to the 1950s in one or two breaths, and that there's probably a lot missing. No mention made of the Depression, and how that affected women's work? No mention of the women working in the factories during WWII? All we have is "men went to work, women were left behind in an empty house, and it was miserable." And what about "quite a few of them did not [go to the factories]?" I wonder what the women of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory would say if they could hear this.

What are we dealing with today?

We re-discovered the Biblical principles of womanhood, rejected feminism, and returned home, but it’s still not right. We’re combining two things that don’t go together: Biblical men and women’s roles, and a home model that’s still built around leisure, entertainment, and retreat. Education has moved back into homes thanks to homeschooling, but industry hasn’t. The result is: girls who finish their formal schooling, putter around the house with nothing to do, and feel like they’re a drain and burden on the family, and trying to convince themselves that what they’re doing is important, “girls who feel out of touch with the real adult world, and worry about facing hard times or being widowed because they have no marketable skills.â€

“In a post-industrial home model the role of the stay-at-home-daughter really does make no sense.†Why would young women leave all the places where work and education and ministry are happening to go to a place where it isn’t happening? There are a lot of young women who realize they’re on a boat going nowhere, and jump ship. A-S agrees that a lot of us are on a ship that’s going nowhere. But we need to steer the ship back on course, not jump off.

E says that instead of mourning over what we’ve lost or complaining about what we don’t have we work to get it back. Daughters have a big role to play in building the home.

“A real home is the incubator of Christendom, the engine for cultural renewal and reformation, the center of dominion and spiritual warfare, a powerhouse of discipleship, ministry, and evangelism, a refinery of Christian character, a conservatory of the true arts and sciences, a hub for industry and entrepreneurialism, a bastion of Christian culture and Godly aesthetics, and a greenhouse for budding Christian leaders.â€

E says if we haven’t been preparing ourselves to build and manage homes like that, and instead “centers of cleanliness and nice decorations†then we’re preparing to be housekeepers, not homemakers.

Women started to go home in the 80’s, but really it was back to the “comfortable concentration camp†of Betty Freidan. In the same way most of us went back to an anemic femininity and considered that the pinnacle of femininity.

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If we’re going to revive femininity we need to make a couple quick distinctions:

1) The difference between a productive Proverbs 31 woman and a career woman.

The difference has nothing to do with work or money. Is she putting her family or her own ambitions first? Is she fulfilling her assignment as the helper to a man, or is she trying to operate without reference to him?

“She looks well to the ways of her household:†she’s not dropping the ball at home

“The heart of her husband trusts in her, that he will have no lack of gain:†she’s really doing this for her husband’s gain; this is about her value to her husband

We can be feminists if we pursue a life that is self-centered and contrary to the will of our father, even if we’re living at home.

2) The difference between provision and augmentation.

It’s the man’s responsibility to provide for his own, but this doesn’t mean women can’t look for creative ways to augment the family income “from home, obviously.â€

The man providing doesn’t mean creating a home of luxury where the mother and daughters don’t have to do anything. The Proverbs 31 woman has it made, but she still embraces the privilege of productive work. Biblically no one gets a free ride. “If anyone will not work he shall not eat.†The Greek is not gender specific, and applies to everyone. Everyone should be looking for work to be done, and will find it.

E introduces us to Eliza Lucas Pinckney, one of her heroes. I’ll give a brief synopsis, but there’s always Google for more background. She was born in Antigua, her father was the governor. Her father took her, her sister, and their mother to their plantations in Carolina to keep them safe due. He was called back to Antigua and left all his affairs and the three plantations in Eliza’s care. Eliza started experimenting with seeds and plants to see what crops would do well in the New World. She had a great deal of success with indigo, and it eventually became a huge money producer in Carolina.

They mention a few times that she was an aristocrat's daughter, and had been to school in London (oh teh horrors!) What they didn't mention was that her favorite subject was botany (which I'm sure gave her excellent footing for her agricultural endeavors,) and that she considered her education to be the best gift her father could have given her.

E says Eliza is her role model because of how hard she was trying to be a Biblical daughter. E has read Eliza’s letters and says that her entire motivation was to serve the Lord, and her father, and all the people around her. “She was never being a little rouge, autonomous, feministic, little maverick. She was the agent of her father, and that’s what she saw herself as. She was representing his interests.â€

She wanted to live in her father’s world and be part of what he was doing. She wanted to live a life of adventure from her “proper province†(Eliza’s phrase.)

She was trying to be a Proverbs 31 woman who saw family and home as her focus, but she saw it as including business, scientific experimentation, study, and keeping up with world events. She realized how broad her “proper province†could be and how much potential she had serving within her family from home.

E likes that Eliza’s life was so invested in her men. Her letters encourage her father and brothers to be Godly Christian men and fight hard. She tries to breathe words of life and encouragement into her men.

Our flesh is often more drawn to a comfortable, easy version of feminity, but we know the difference between that and girls like Eliza Lucas Pinckney is not their circumstances, it’s in their outlook and approach to life and daughterhood.

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Circumstances are a big part of what we’ve been given to deal with (kind of families, talents, opportunities, gifts.)

What gifts are, and aren’t:

“Gifted: endowed by nature with any power or faculty, furnished with any particular talentâ€

Ultimately all talents are from the Spirit of the Lord, and are to be used for his service.

Five things we need to know about gifts:

1) (Anna-Sophia) Gifts are our servants, not our masters.

They are given as tools, but are not ends unto themselves. A-S says she thinks this is where a lot of homeschooled kids get off track. They want to prove to the world that being homeschooled is just as good or better. A-S and E know from years of studying the harp just how easy it is for a desire to bless others can turn into a desire for recognition of personal achievement. Another danger is to spiritualize a desire for accolades: “we’re trying to get recognition for the glory of God,†“we feel God’s pleasure when we hear people clapping.†But is this service feeding is sheep and serving one another in love? If we’re not glorifying Him in the way He wants to be glorified then we’re not doing it for Him, we’re doing it for us.

If we don’t take dominion of our gifts, they will take dominion of us. A gift should not be taken as a blanket endorsement from God to go use it however we want to. It must be used on his terms.

2) (Elizabeth) Gifts are tests.

When we realize we have a gift, it can be very tempting to use it for self-promoting reasons. Wanting to be great in the kingdom of God and wanting to do great things for the kingdom of God are two very different things.

Gifts can tempt us to put our confidence in ourselves.

“An obvious gifting can cause us to disregard our previous convictions or our previous path.†E says she and A-S know many girls who got confused when they realized they had a gift and started to wonder if they were the exception to the rule. “And when they start off on this road, they never, ever mean for it to take them as far off track as it always does.â€

Cue ominous music.

E talks about a close friend who wanted to have a bunch of kids and homeschool them. She had a wonderful gift for teaching, but she started to wonder if homeschooling her kids wouldn’t be enough to use her gift to its maximum. She went to college to become a teacher and started working in a school. Now she is married and postponing having children, and doesn’t think she’ll be able to homeschool when she does have them because she has to work to pay off her student loan.

My first thought was Jasmine.

The idea that we have to take a gift and develop it to its uttermost is not found in the Bible. “Don’t let your gift de-rail you from the path you knew was better.â€

3) You probably have more than one gift.

Don’t invest in one gift and neglect all the others that might be more useful to more people.

Sometimes we define our gifts too narrowly or too specifically

In doing a lot of different things we find out what our true gifts actually are. We find we have a lot more gifts by working and serving than through competitions and talent shows.

4) (A-S) There’s more than one way to use a gift.

Our understanding of how many kinds of gifts there are is narrow, as is our understanding of how we pursue and use them.

In college Daddy Bot was a great oil painter, and to his professors that meant that he should go to art school and become the world’s next great master. Even though he didn’t do that, “God has been able to use his artist’s eye, his aesthetic discernment, his craftsman’s hand†in other pursuits that were more important: filmmaking, newspaper layout, graphic design, home renovation.

Their brother Ben is very gifted musically, and was pressured to go to school and get his performance degree. No one told him to buy composing software and become a freelance composer, but he did it after considering how he could contribute something to the world of music “instead of being a kind of puppet for the rest of his life, always playing and performing somebody else’s music.â€

A-S knows a girl who had a gift for languages, but instead of going to a foreign country and becoming a school teacher, she is translating theological books by European reformers that have never been in English.

A single gift can be used in multiple ways. We should never feel that we either pursue a gift by compromising, or let it go by the wayside.

5) (E) Character is a bigger deal than gifting.

What’s more important than being gifted is being willing. A regenerate person, filled with the Spirit and endowed with the Word of God will be capable of things they’ve never done before.

God equips His people for the work He wants them to do.

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It strikes me that most fundies take relatively simple things make them much more complicated than they need to be, while forcing ideas into very black and white thinking. THis "But we are doing things differently because we are the first to think of things this way" is pretty sickening.

Lorri makes marriage and even submission much more difficult than it needs to be, but she starts from the premise that love it a battlefield AND marriage a version of Mutual Assured Destruction and duty for God. Then she talks it to death.

Cabinet man does the same, but he wants everyone to know that he has a penis...seriously, a penis and it is a really good one so we all should pay attention.

The Botkins stepped on their own dick when they created the whole SAHD movement on top of their "have as many kids for the dominion as possible and rul the world" movement and they are sort of killing both of them by the daughters staying home this long. So, they rebrand, but they rebrand with such longwinded BS that tries to make it look like they were right all along it is just their followers were too stupid to get it.

And blathering on. Because telling people that there is no one size fits all that works for everyone as far as how to live your life, marriage, etc doesn't sell books. And without that book selling/conference promotion, their family economy SUCKS!

I feel they are scrambling to keep the SAHD Botkins relevant to anyone, possibly inclluding themselves At least Sara Maxwell sells children's books, not "how to be like us--and you'd want to be because look how well all our plans worked out" books.

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How do we put gifts to work?

1) Building our homes and families.

We still need to make our homes into all they were meant to be.

How can we have a more active role as the “corner-pillars†of our homes?

Unmarried daughters who are still at home are actually the secret weapon to rebuild the household economy.

Some girls will be given better success than others, but everyone needs to try.

There’s a place for having businesses from home, but right now there may be a greater need to get the entire family set up as an economic unit. Fathers and brothers are struggling with broken economy and want to come home, but don’t know how. A lot of fathers are realizing that with the economy going downhill, something has to change with their family.

They believe one of the most important things girls can do is to present themselves as servants.

Helping your family = helping them do more than they thought possible.

2) Learn how to talk to our parents

If we want to help build a home economy, we have to have open, clear communication with our parents.

There are two different ways to say “I think our family could be doing better,†“why are we doing things this way,†“I think I could be doing more things.â€

“You can breathe words of life and encouragement into your father’s vision, or you can be the dripping faucet that makes him decides that the office would be a much more pleasant place to be.â€

If you appeal to your parents to expand what’s going on at home, be sure to expand your commitment to work harder and serve more. Don’t accuse, complain, demand they do more. Ask how you can help the family do more. Don’t expect your parents to entrust you with more until you’ve proven you will handle it.

Don’t make assumptions about how your parents will respond. A-S and E have heard lots of assumptions from girls about what their fathers are interested in, want, care about. Before you assume your father wants a home business, ask him. Bring him a business plan, but don’t go to him with accusations, anxiety, and expectations.

We are not commanded to pursue favorite interests or dreams, but we are commanded to honor and obey parents.

How to encourage an entrepreneurial spirit “in our dad and brothers:â€

Embrace any hard work your brothers and dad try to involve you in.

Be full of faith and hope, and don’t be afraid to let them take risks.

Don’t be negative.

Be part of your dad’s world. Care about what he cares about and put your whole heart into what he’s trying to do.

We’re all equally prone to doing the bare minimum with what we’ve been given.

We’re afraid of how much the Lord will do with our lives if we give them to Him.

We need to be content with the talents the Lord has given us, but we should never be content with what we’re doing with them.

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5 Principles on how to Apply Gifts:

1) We should all be applying the concept of stewardship, and it starts by thinking like a steward

In all the little things you can think like an entrepreneurs. There’s no reason why we can’t think in terms of initiative, investment, and profit in everything we do.

Cooking: we can think of it as a chore, or we can view it as an opportunity to practice making meals that are better, more economical, healthier, faster, more efficiently.

View every new task or job as an opportunity to master something.

Think more entrepreneurially in regards to how we spend our time. When we say yes to one activity, that means saying no to a different activity.

“What will the return on my labor be?†Will you make a better return on one hour of scrapbooking than one hour of learning to use Photoshop?

A-S doesn’t want it to sound like they’re beating up on handcrafts. She says that she and E were once the queens of handcrafts, and did “untold hours’ doing cross-stitch, and cake and silk ribbon embroidery, and origami, and lanyard making. They used to have competitions to see who could make the smallest origami crane using A-S’s microscope and a pair of tweezers. Now they’re using the skills they learned doing those crafts in things that have a bigger return.

An activity’s value is not measured by the amount of money it brings in (unless that was the point.) Sometimes the most valuable thing you can do is help your brother with his homework or cleaning the house.

“When determining something’s value, our gold standard is ‘whatever our family needs.’†But don’t put personal satisfaction into doing something by hand if its more economical to buy it.

2) We should be looking for the needs.

The Christian life is primarily about service to others. If it is, we should be able to pick which activity would be most useful to the people around us.

Ask ourselves from a business standpoint, is this needed?

A lot of times we don’t see opportunities for what could be done because our world is still so small and we’re thinking in terms of ourselves.

3) Think outside the box

A few years ago a few daughters at home who were trying to figure out what to do with their time looked back a few hundred years ago before feminism, and saw lots of spinning and knitting and making basic household items like soap and candles, and thought “this is what a virtuous woman does.â€

We live in a totally different economic world. They made those things because they had to.

The next wave of girls who came after looked at all the baked goods, music lessons, handcrafts, and calligraphy and those things became the “accepted activities for daughters at home.â€

A-S (?) references a Time news article which says stay-at-home-daughters don’t work, and view personal ambition as anti-family, and spend their days crocheting, knitting, and making soap.

We’re a generation of followers. We get caught up in the SAHD approved activities, and don’t see anything bigger. We don’t want to have to tailor-make a business or education plan based on our family’s situation.

We get hung up on un-Biblical stereotypes of stuff that’s gender appropriate. We still have a lot of baggage within the movement regarding that.

The Bible doesn’t divide things by job so much as it does by hierarchy and jurisdiction.

“We don’t define feminine as ‘something no man in his right mind would ever do.’ We define feminine as ‘what’s most helpful to the men in our families.’â€

We get so focused on the things we can’t do that we lose sight of all the things we could be doing.

4) (E) Redeem the time.

Some people think time should be passed or filled, but Christians know that the time must be redeemed.

How A-S and E try to make the most of their time through the day:

Keep our brains turned on instead of relying on routine

Look for smarter and faster ways of doing things, even routine things like vacuuming

Prioritize ruthlessly and eliminate all things that are not essential, it’s a lie that you can do everything

Multitask as much as possible. E says they planned this speech while they were refinishing some cabinets for one brother and retiling the floor for another brother.

We should never be completely satisfied that we’re using our time as best we can and that what we’re doing right now is as good as it needs to be.

We should always be looking for opportunities that are more important.

5) Seek first the kingdom of God

Having the perfect understanding of Biblical womanhood and the perfect Biblical home won’t make us perfect.

We can know everything we should do and not want to, or be confused about it. This is because we don’t love God or care about His interests enough.

Seeking the kingdom shows us the needs and what si a worthy investment of our times and gifts. It will give us the motivation and energy to do more and give more of ourselves.

We should want more than the personal fulfillment of having made money, we should want the sound of God’s voice saying “well done, good and faithful servant.â€

And that's it, folks, all 77 minutes of it.

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...They used to have competitions to see who could make the smallest origami crane using A-S’s microscope and a pair of tweezers. ...

...They used to have competitions to see who could make the smallest origami crane using A-S’s microscope and a pair of tweezers. ...

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Thank you, Columbia, for taking one for FJ. :worship:

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Thanks, Columbia, for sitting through 77 minutes of this shite.

The years roll by, and they really do continue to grind out the same old crap, don't they? For all their verbosity, I'm still left wondering what it is the Botkinettes actually DO, beyond posing prettily for photos in WWII costume at September's local re-enactment fest, and manning the family merch table at Scotty Brown's NCFIC conference last weekend. Oh, and continuing to perpetuate Daddy's hyperinflated resume:

In college Daddy Bot was a great oil painter, and to his professors that meant that he should go to art school and become the world’s next great master. Even though he didn’t do that, “God has been able to use his artist’s eye, his aesthetic discernment, his craftsman’s hand†in other pursuits that were more important: filmmaking, newspaper layout, graphic design, home renovation.

Yes, folks, alert the media and prepare for a shock, the world has been deprived of its next Rembrandt. :roll:

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What the h*ll is the "home based economy" that SAHDs are supposed to encourage Papa to consider, instead of the office/health insurance/savings??? :cray-cray:

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:shock: :shock: :shock:

Thank you, Columbia, for taking one for FJ. :worship:

In their defense (I always shudder when I type that) they did make it sound like they were much younger. To be honest, I could totally see my little sister and I trying something like that when we were 11 or 12.

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I want to know what has been the response to this and the "It's Not About Staying at Home" talk within the SAHD community. I haven't seen either of them mentioned on any of the SAHD blogs I follow (though I don't follow very many.) I haven't seen anyone hailing these as some remarkable, noble, Biblical, new view of daughterhood. The folks at Ladies Against Feminism announced their four new talks, but it looks like they just copied and pasted the same announcement the Botkinettes had on their website. There's one comment:

From a man’s point of view, admittedly, this is very time; the Biblical Womanhood movement was in danger of becoming so completely withdrawn that it could not engage with the outside world at all.

Is everyone still quiet after DPIATR? Are their ideas so far out there that none of these patriarchs will let their daughters consider them? Does no one care anymore? I'd love to know just what is going on in the Botkin house these days.

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What the h*ll is the "home based economy" that SAHDs are supposed to encourage Papa to consider, instead of the office/health insurance/savings??? :cray-cray:

I think it is a variation of some of the frugal/simplicity ideas that suggest if you try hard enough, you can add more value by working at home on household things than you would if you had a job. SO I read posts about women cutting up flannel to use instead of toilet paper and then spending their time making the laundry detergent to washing this and then hanging it out to dry--all to be more productive than working outside the home :? . It sounds like the Botkins are becoming efficiency experts in the less extreme versions of this.

Here is some non Botkin stuff I thought was interesting. Note the bolded....

The Family Economy is a term we use to describe products, goods, and services, mostly produced in the home and where the workforce consists of family members. It is the most basic but most hidden element of the pre-industrial community economy.

An early American family working at home(. . . .removed picture) illustrates the family economy at work in the home! The man is weaving at his loom. The woman is spinning yarn. One boy appears to be stripping wood from a log. The other is making a basket from the stripped wood. If those activities produced cloth or baskets for sale, that work would be part of the community's production economy.

As most tasks in pre-industrial society were labor-intensive, The early American workforce suffered from a chronic shortage of labor. Bound (slave, criminal, orphan) and contract labor (indentures and apprentices) only solved part of the problem. Early Albany families were large and all members were expected to work in support of the family's subsistence and commercial activities. Since many families had large numbers of children, they performed many of the most basic tasks on an ongoing basis. Two decades into a marriage, the family economy typically would reach a high point with many children, adolescents, young adults, and even the elderly and infirm efficiently contributing to its production.

Almost all families included at least some children who grew up but never married. Physical and emotional reasons answer some of the questions as to "why not?" But younger sons and daughters of large families sometimes remained unmarried even though no health-related impediments are apparent. We believe un-married adult children who lived in their parents' home were a means to bolster the family economy as their experience, loyalty, and simply "extra hands" were great assets to a household's overall well-being .

nysm.nysed.gov/albany/econ/famec.html

And, the conferences have begun. This one doesn't seem to include the botkins,but does include the Maxwells! As usual, the ad for it sets up a ton of strawmen,

The Vision of Family Economics

Forget about world GDP, population implosion, or the CPI for just a moment, and consider the power of a family unit knit together in relationship, love, and honor – all diligently working toward the single goal of being productive for the kingdom of God and advancing the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is what Family Economics is all about!

Many families have seen the disintegration of family relationships over the last few decades and responded by integrating relationship and character into their home and their children’s lives. :violin: But what about the 80% or more of real life not directly connected to classroom learning? What about your family’s work, your budget, your finances, your higher education and vocational training, your health care, your inheritance, and your overall financial vision? Does your family have a unified, integrated vision for where you will be in 5, 10, and 20 years from now? Will you be able to accomplish that together? Family Economics takes the next step in incorporating a Biblical vision for the family’s economics on all levels, and seeks to practically equip families across America with the steps to build their household-based economy, one family at a time.

(And by Next Step we mean now our kids are old and not married and cant' get jobs with their experience not to mention they'd be around sinners!)

The economies of the world around us rise and fall, corporations come and go. As the debt loads of Western nations reach skyrocketing proportions, the future of our macro-economy can look a little bleak. But we are hopeful and excited about the future of the family economy. Families around America are beginning to see the vision for work and economics that existed for over 4,000 years – family-based production in the context of the household.

While politicians are positioning for power and bankers scheme on the future of the world financial markets, we’re preparing families to grab a hammer and anvil and forge a fruitful household economy for the kingdom of God! This is the vision that you will find at our Family Economics conferences held around the country every year, and we believe it couldn’t come at a better time.

IE< we aren't earning as much so we are going old school and have no time for lounging about... I'm looking at you, grown up girls. To me, it just looks and sounds like a rebrand ....

And the thing is I have no bone to pick with them for doing their own stuff-- but I think they make way more of a big deal about it than it is and talk it to death, as I said earlier.

Wikipedia has a long bit on it, but I didn't read the whole thing and--- Wikipedia...

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I never made it past a "lot of fathers are realizing that with the economy going downhill, something has to change with their family. They believe one of the most important things girls can do is to present themselves as servants."

So your family is having economic problems and the best thing to do is make her daughter stay at home and not work? How does less income for the family solve economic problems?

Their ideas may have work in the 1800s when the whole family worked and sustained the family, on the farm but it doesn't work in the modern age when most people leave their homes to make money. Your daughter cleaning your home everyday does not contribute to improve the family's finances.

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Prioritize ruthlessly and eliminate all things that are not essential,

Which, if their followers do this, would mean no longer attending dress up reunions of religious history reinacting, and going to countless pointless conferences held by people like The Botkins.

Do we think the Tools disgrace blew back on them enough that it hit their incomes? Because the whole simplify, diy, etc etc etc line sounds like "We're broke".

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"ideas may have work in the 1800s when the whole family worked and sustained the family, on the farm but it doesn't work in the modern age when most people leave their homes to make money. Your daughter cleaning your home everyday does not contribute to improve the family's finances.

Yup. Plus it doesn't take into account the whole world of people she doesn't know about who in the 19th century didn't work on farms-- the men who worked in mines and on railroads, some of whom died or were mauled in accidents, wives with no access to birth control having to take in laundry or do migrant labor or work in the places like the Triangle factory while their nonschooled children--home or otherwise--were hauling coal or otherwise engaged in "productive" labor.

So very much to snark on, but for now I'll just note the ignorance and arrogance of using as a role model the woman who sort of took over the plantation while the family had to attend to details of their ventures in the Caribbean. WhoTF did she think was doing the work on the plantation? WhoTF did she think was doing the work in the Caribbean? The Botkinettes need to explain why the women of color, and their children, (too tired to check dates now, so can't say for sure they were enslaved on those dates), weren't entitled to live the life that they believe should be aspired to.

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Oh my god, are those lunatics actually talking about the industrial revolution like it's a bad thing? And public schools are evil? Before the IR, families didn't have time ti educate their kids! And tiny children routinely worked around heavy, deadly machinery!

Cooking: we can think of it as a chore, or we can view it as an opportunity to practice making meals that are better, more economical, healthier, faster, more efficiently.

Such black and white thinking. I think of some things as both chores and a chance to figure out how to do it more efficiently. I'm sure there are people who hate cooking, but still try to do it better anyway. How sad does like have to be that it can only be chore or opportunity?

Jeez, the general gist of the program there is that nothing you can ever do is good enough, and you're selfish and wicked if you ever think about yourself at all. What would they say about my husband who actually wants me to relax and think about myself sometimes? Would I be horrid and sinful if I took a bath to relax, and did some stuff for myself, if it's what my husband wants?

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In their defense (I always shudder when I type that) they did make it sound like they were much younger. To be honest, I could totally see my little sister and I trying something like that when we were 11 or 12.

I hope you're right. I just keep visualising them doing this at the age of 25 or so. :cray-cray: And I can't get that old Styx song out of my head: "Too much/Time on my hands..." :lol:

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"ideas may have work in the 1800s when the whole family worked and sustained the family, on the farm but it doesn't work in the modern age when most people leave their homes to make money. Your daughter cleaning your home everyday does not contribute to improve the family's finances.

Yup. Plus it doesn't take into account the whole world of people she doesn't know about who in the 19th century didn't work on farms-- the men who worked in mines and on railroads, some of whom died or were mauled in accidents, wives with no access to birth control having to take in laundry or do migrant labor or work in the places like the Triangle factory while their nonschooled children--home or otherwise--were hauling coal or otherwise engaged in "productive" labor.

So very much to snark on, but for now I'll just note the ignorance and arrogance of using as a role model the woman who sort of took over the plantation while the family had to attend to details of their ventures in the Caribbean. WhoTF did she think was doing the work on the plantation? WhoTF did she think was doing the work in the Caribbean? The Botkinettes need to explain why the women of color, and their children, (too tired to check dates now, so can't say for sure they were enslaved on those dates), weren't entitled to live the life that they believe should be aspired to.

Eliza Pinckney was born in the early 18th century, so yes, all that work to produce indigo was done by slaves. :?

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Thanks, Columbia, for sitting through 77 minutes of this shite.

The years roll by, and they really do continue to grind out the same old crap, don't they? For all their verbosity, I'm still left wondering what it is the Botkinettes actually DO, beyond posing prettily for photos in WWII costume at September's local re-enactment fest, and manning the family merch table at Scotty Brown's NCFIC conference last weekend. Oh, and continuing to perpetuate Daddy's hyperinflated resume:

Yes, folks, alert the media and prepare for a shock, the world has been deprived of its next Rembrandt. :roll:

Rembrandt, I'm dubious of - but Thomas Kinkade with the whole Personal Branding thing? Could see that!

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Notice how in 77 minutes they devote zero time to any kind of practical advice about starting a buisness. Surely they've developed some ideas about how to build an empire of doling out overpriced sanctimonious to young sahds about how they are forever doing something wrong

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Industrial revolution: separated the family life from the world of work. “… we see the mommy working here, the daddies working here, and the children are working here, unless of course they’re in this new institution called ‘public school’ which has been established by the government because mommy and daddy are not able to be at home to educate any more.â€

Public schools weren't new in the 19th century; we had them in Scotland in the 16th century. It wasn't a replacement for home education, but a replacement for no education, brought in by the church, of all organisations, so people could read their bibles.

Scotland was unusually early in establishing public schools, but where public schools didn't exist wealthy children went to boarding schools and poor children weren't educated at all. It wasn't some kind of utopia of homeschooling.

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Public schools weren't new in the 19th century; we had them in Scotland in the 16th century. It wasn't a replacement for home education, but a replacement for no education, brought in by the church, of all organisations, so people could read their bibles.

Scotland was unusually early in establishing public schools, but where public schools didn't exist wealthy children went to boarding schools and poor children weren't educated at all. It wasn't some kind of utopia of homeschooling.

Thank you. Because the hate and lies about public schooling wears on me.

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I never made it past a "lot of fathers are realizing that with the economy going downhill, something has to change with their family. They believe one of the most important things girls can do is to present themselves as servants."

So your family is having economic problems and the best thing to do is make her daughter stay at home and not work? How does less income for the family solve economic problems?

Their ideas may have work in the 1800s when the whole family worked and sustained the family, on the farm but it doesn't work in the modern age when most people leave their homes to make money. Your daughter cleaning your home everyday does not contribute to improve the family's finances.

I think their "logic" - and I use the word in its broadest possible sense - is that if all of womankind stayed at home there'd be jobs for all the menfolk, which is the ultimate fundie wet dream. They don't actually care about more income, as long as the wimminz aren't stealing mens' jobs!

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