JimBob/Gothard Standards falling apart

[pega127]

I feel these past two weddings have demonstrated many things us FJ-ers have brought to lights over the years. Jill and Jessa creating their own wedding styles and life seems to be picking away at the standards demanded by JB and Gothard. I can't imagine JB wanted Ben for Jessa (does not measure up to those courters need to be able to provide for their wives) and Jill marrying a guy she supposedly hadn't met for months, yet fell in love!!! How will he handle the rest of his blessings who have witnessed their older sisters make certain decisions?

[bluehydrangea]

I think that the Duggars' fame, for all the bad it's brought out in them, has also exposed them to some good things, i.e. real life outside of the insular Gothard-directed world they were living in before. They are still very conservative...but like you said, I think these past two weddings have shown us that they're not following Gothardism by the book anymore.

Quite simply, I think they're starting to figure out which of ATI/IBLP/Gothard's standards are not realistic, and stepping outside of the "umbrella" on a few things. Courting is so strict as it is, and I don't think the Duggar kids want to be single forever, a la some of the Maxwells, Arndts, and so on...I think they're doing as the Bates do, rewriting the rules a bit to suit them, and I think that will trickle on down the line. I don't think Gothard's kingdom has a long foreseeable future.

[eh02]

I think Jim Bob and Michelle are slowly and strategically pulling away from ATI and probably have been for a while. They're still getting their paychecks by speaking at their events so people will actually show up, but my guess is much of the rest has ended. The Duggars' whole schtick is being called in to "help" when "likeminded" people need support - they're advertising for the Creation Museum, which is REALLY struggling financially, they advertise for ATI, even for the Bates family, and of course they campaign for struggling politicians. I'm sure they get money from ATI and Ken Ham to instagram those photos - 100% positive. People with their level of fame do not do that for free. I think Josiah spending so much time at ALERT could be a push to keep fundies interested in the program and they could even potentially be getting paid for that. We all know ATI is struggling and the Duggars are their big ticket to staying relevant.

I am curious to see where they will end up, though - if they will stay about where they are now or it will be a gradual slide into Christian rock and exposed shoulders.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

I have always thought the achilles heel of the "independent Baptist" movement was the fact that each Headship is his own little dictatorship. That gives JB just enough wiggle room to massage and bend the rules this way and that. Especially in a time when several of the leaders in the fundie movement have stepped out of the limelight for a bit.

At the end of the day- JB has the realize that if he tries to force his will a few of his kids will walk. And if they do- oh the interviews I am sure they could give!

[Mama Mia]

I have always thought the achilles heel of the "independent Baptist" movement was the fact that each Headship is his own little dictatorship. That gives JB just enough wiggle room to massage and bend the rules this way and that. Especially in a time when several of the leaders in the fundie movement have stepped out of the limelight for a bit.

At the end of the day- JB has the realize that if he tries to force his will a few of his kids will walk. And if they do- oh the interviews I am sure they could give!

I know they are way, way extremist about the amount of control they have over their kids in general, but it think part of this shift to being more flexible/realistic is bound to happen in any family. Particularly a large family.

As a parent you start out with a picture in your head of your kids who are SAHD or college educated professionals or love cheering on your favorite sports team in front of the tv, or going out to lunch and shopping , or discussing current events or going into the family business or doing art projects or being prom queen or being too hip for that or loving Harry Potter and Dr. Who , or being in band or playing on team sports or joining the a Peace Corp.

But in real life your kids might turn out to be a totally different " type" than you expected. And the more kids, the more likely this is. Your first two kids might be within your comfort range of interests and personality and world view - but number three is completely out of your realm. Whatever that is.

I think the Duggar's , and other fundamentalists, are just a " normal" family on steroids. So the kids do relatively tiny little shows of independence, but for them are probably as significant as the child in a family of Doctors and Lawyers who decides to be a construction worker.

I think that's a very good point regarding JB and his realizing that trying to exert too much control and lockstep similarity will backfire. Well " too much" in their world! Which is hugely different than most families!

[Toothfairy]

I don't think the Duggars will ever leave Gothard. They're took far into it. The kids might. I think they are given much more freedom than shown. I do think JB loosen up the reins a lot, because no way can you give your heat away to a guy u never met.

[Boogalou]

I don't see it. All the big important things, campaigning for ultra-conservative politicians, promoting creationism, abortion = holocaust, not kissing until marriage, no alone time with the person you are going to marry, etc. are all still firmly in place. Sure, the brides might go barefoot or wear a dress three shades off from white, or not have cake at their wedding, but these are all small things that Gothard doesn't have anything to say about.

I wonder if some of this stuff isn't being encouraged by JB to promote their brand to say "look, we're not ultra conservative whackadoodles - my daughter saw her husband before they were married!" New external superficial trappings to the same fundamentalist beliefs. Maybe this is the beginning of them moving away from those beliefs but people have been speculating on that for years and it has yet to happen.

[OodOnTheLoo]

Aren't ATI men supposed o be clean shaven? Love all the beards popping up, even at the alter.

I won't rejoice in the fall of Gothard until the girls cut their hair and go off to college and have some form of family planning in place.

I would also approve of public statements made calling out Gothard's predatory actions. I can't believe that between the Duggars and Bates there aren't some victims there.

[neuroticcat]

It seems to me to be only in the surface-y type standards. I mean, they may not opt for the frumper fundie style anymore, but they are still toeing the line: no higher education, girls as SAHD's, courtship, modesty, conservative politics etc.

I think the fact that they appear more mainstream is TLC's spin and the fact that they are savvy to appealing to mainstream audiences as a way to spread their "ministry." I agree that they've had to loosen up on certain things because of the number of kids and outside exposure, but until some of them rebel or go mainstream, I imagine the brainwashing is still pretty heavy at home. And why not? They can point to God's blessing (how well it's worked out for them $$$) on their lifestyle.

I will believe they have broken from fundie/Gothard thinking when they let one of their daughters move out on her own even if she isn't married or when they let one of their kids pursue higher education or something of that nature.

[SassyPants]

The worst elements of Gothardism that the Duggars support are the lack of education and no BC use-

Singularly, both of those elements lead to poverty, together, there is very little chance that these kids will not end up impoverished. TLC is not going to be following those kids and their mega families for the long haul- and the Duggar kids are now use to that lifestyle. Jill was able to marry an educated, more mainstream man, I hope he leads her out of this hole....the rest, we'll have to see.

I don't care about hair, beards, pants, shoulders or knees. I care about bodies being used for the cause and children, in large numbers, who are being denied a decent education and future opportunities.