Fundie Wedding Nights/Losing Virginity

[Firiel]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Speaking as an XY type, I think you are probably a bit paranoid here. By far the best part of sex for me is having my partner totally lose it. Why? Well, sex is fun physically but honestly that can be done solo. The emotional part is the real payoff for doing it with some one else

A) I just managed to give someone I love a great time. That's always a good feeling

B) There's a level of emotional intimacy built into really good sex- the kind where you forget inhibitions and just do "I don't care if the neighbors hear" funtime. That's tough to achieve - it requires serious trust in the other person, especially for the woman. Knowing that she's willing to do that is a tremendous emotional turn on, and something you remember long after the physical bits are forgotten.

Yes, I get that sometimes her orgasm just isn't going to happen even if she wants sex, and again you have to have the level of emotional trust to be willing to accept that too. But I will admit to being disappointed, not because I feel like a failure as a lover but because I really do want her to have a good time.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Okay, I addressed some of this in my post just above this one. But yeah.

First, I'm not being paranoid. The dynamic I described was most definitely the dynamic in my relationship. I know because I lived it. That's not the dynamic in every relationship, of course. It's not the dynamic in the relationship I'm in now.

Second, it feels a bit dismissive for you to say things like this:

here's a level of emotional intimacy built into really good sex- the kind where you forget inhibitions and just do "I don't care if the neighbors hear" funtime. That's tough to achieve - it requires serious trust in the other person, especially for the woman. Knowing that she's willing to do that is a tremendous emotional turn on, and something you remember long after the physical bits are forgotten.

It sounds like you are saying that bad sex is generally the woman's fault because she doesn't "forget inhibitions" or have enough trust in the other person. It at least sounds like you are saying sub-par sex is generally the fault of the person not enjoying it. Sorry, but that's not the case. Sex is a two-way street. Always. And if a partner's anxiety or fear or newness at sex is making things difficult, then so is the other partner's inability to understand that anxiety or work with the inexperience.

You say you feel disappointed when she doesn't orgasm because you really wanted her to have a good time. That's fine, but what if she tells you that she doesn't need to orgasm to have a good time? In that case, you are dismissing her own experience and opinions because of YOUR belief that orgasm = good sex and not orgasm = not good sex.

[church_of_dog]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Oh, I don't think it's bad to want your partner to enjoy sex! Of course not! But I remain suspicious of people who are overly invested in the orgasm for their partner. Enjoyable sex is not limited by orgasms. That may be the case for some women, especially those who don't really ever have trouble finishing. And that's great for them! But some people (*ahem* me) don't work that way. Telling someone fairly new to sex that they need to orgasm for you to enjoy it, especially when they struggle with anxiety, is a really mean and stupid thing to do. It's like telling a guy who struggles with ED because of anxiety that he better be able to get it up. And insisting on defining someone else's standards for enjoyable sex is pretty crappy too. Plus, I know there are guys out there who will have sex with women and then brag to their friends about how many times she finished or how loud she was or how much she enjoyed it. And in those cases, the guy is most definitely not having a mutually pleasurable experience because sex should be good for everyone. He's having a mutually pleasurable experience so he can feel superior about how great he is in bed.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I completely agree. I would really appreciate having a partner who is willing to work with me to sleuth out the nonstandard mysteries of my body's sexual responses -- and in a way and and at a pace that works within MY comfort zone. But that process could take months, who knows? I definitely wouldn't want my partner to forfeit his own pleasure during that time -- in fact, as you said, I would find that exceptionally stressful, if he said "I won't until you do" -- last thing I need is that kind of pressure! Plus, as you also say, I can completely enjoy the experience of lovemaking even without that last piece -- so I'm not interested in denying MYSELF that either. Using orgasms as the measure of whether the intimacy was 'successful' is really a shame and inappropriate as well.

[August]

Yes, it happened.

And it gets worse. They were doing it in front of Jessa and Ben and taunting them because they couldn't do it yet.

That is the creepiest thing I've heard all year. Yuck.

NsFWK

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JVjRiQw9KLw

[SquirrelySquirrel]

This thread shows how much others are obsessed with sex as much as the fundies are [emoji12]

:lol: You have a point. But if they didn't talk about sex and "purity" so damn much, neither would we. I mean, no one is speculating on Jeremy Roloff's marital bed that I've seen. How do fundies like Boob not see how immodest they are? I guarantee there isn't enough money in the world to male my heathen parents say a word about my sex life to anyone, let alone to a tv crew and magazines.

[guitar_villain]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Okay, I addressed some of this in my post just above this one. But yeah.

First, I'm not being paranoid. The dynamic I described was most definitely the dynamic in my relationship. I know because I lived it. That's not the dynamic in every relationship, of course. It's not the dynamic in the relationship I'm in now.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

But that's my point. Yes, you had a crappy lover. Please don't make that experience color your beliefs about how men view sex, and some of your comments indicate that you might be.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Again, I think you *really* misunderstand me here. I'm not blaming anyone at all- I'm saying that "good" sex is something that involves mutual trust and communication. If you're unable to reach that emotional connection yes, the sex will be crappy. That's why you have to listen to your partner- there's nothing worse than sex with someone who's not into it. I've had inexperienced partners (and of course was inexperienced myself once)- you go at the speed you both feel comfortable with.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I think you missed my paragraph where I said it's ok if she doesn't want to. It happens occasionally, and if she's ok with just me finishing I'm ok with that too. I've been married 20+ years, so my views here are colored by our experience. I have a pretty good idea what she enjoys (and vice versa), so honestly it doesn't happen often: if she's not in the mood to the point where starting out she knows she's not interested we'll try another time. (Between two kids and some serious health issues lately that's more than a little common anyway ) I"m not sure how you went from "I'd like her to climax because I know she enjoys it" to my dismissing her opinions.

[Mama Mia]

I hope so. I always worry about girls brought up in this culture who are raped or molested. Do they feel like they aren't worth anything any longer because they are no longer pure? Clearly some extreme religions/cultures view this as so, which is so clearly screwed up that it's almost impossible to believe it still exists in the 21st Century, but it does. I think the emphasis on purity takes away from the value of the young woman herself as a whole. It's like she has nothing to offer her husband without it. It really is just another facet of the person, and they place way too much on top of it, suggesting that if you are not pure then you are less and that's wrong.

It's like how the white wedding gown has come to be synonomous with purity, but that isn't how it started. Prior to Queen Victorian, woman did not wear white to marry. They often chose gowns of ""heavy brocaded gowns embroidered with white and silver thread," with red being a particularly popular colour in Western Europe more generally.[1] European and American brides had been wearing a plethora of colours, including blue, yellow, and practical colours like black, brown, or gray" Because laundering was still difficult, white was rarely worn, so to wear a white gown was a way to show that you were so wealthy you didn't need to worry about getting a white gown dirty. After Queen Victoria chose white for her wedding, the trend spread among the elite and later among the middle class after WWII. "Etiquette books then began to turn the practice into a tradition and the white gown soon became a popular symbol of status that also carried "a connotation of innocence and sexual purity" (source: Wikipedia)

That's why it always kills me when people snark on a woman who is not a virgin wearing a white bridal gown. Who cares? It's just a dress people! Sorry...got off topic and went on a rant there!

Staying off topic, but I knew this about wedding dresses not generally being white, and typically being either the brides current best dress, or a new one that could be her best dress for a long time to come. So I was very, very surprised when I recently was sorting through old family photos. I found a formal wedding portrait of my dirt poor, immigrant, fruit picker great grandparents taken right around 1895. I was surprised, first of all that they even had a formal portrait. But even more surprised that the bride was wearing a formal, white wedding dress!

I'm really curious as to how on earth that happened.

[louisa05]

Staying off topic, but I knew this about wedding dresses not generally being white, and typically being either the brides current best dress, or a new one that could be her best dress for a long time to come. So I was very, very surprised when I recently was sorting through old family photos. I found a formal wedding portrait of my dirt poor, immigrant, fruit picker great grandparents taken right around 1895. I was surprised, first of all that they even had a formal portrait. But even more surprised that the bride was wearing a formal, white wedding dress!

I'm really curious as to how on earth that happened.

Victoria and Albert were married February 10, 1840, so by 1895 the white wedding dress trend had had 55 years to take off.

I don't think formal portraits were that uncommon by then. My great grandparents all had them. It was my grandparents married during the Depression or just after who did not (maternal married in 1933, paternal married in 1941). Nor did they have formal weddings at all.

[Loveday]

That is the creepiest thing I've heard all year. Yuck.

NsFWK

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JVjRiQw9KLw

:shock: I hadn't seen that til now. My eyeballs are scarred, and I need a case of brain bleach.

[Firiel]

:shock: I hadn't seen that til now. My eyeballs are scarred, and I need a case of brain bleach.

:brain-bleach: :brain-bleach: :brain-bleach: :brain-bleach: :brain-bleach:

I just watched it for the first time too. Those kids have about 400 more miles of leeway in my mind now that I have a deeper, more disturbing understanding of how screwed up their childhood was.

[Toothfairy]

JB your kids know you and Michelle love each other because you have 19 kids together. Gosh this is so nasty

[Lissa1481]

:brain-bleach: :brain-bleach: :brain-bleach: :brain-bleach: :brain-bleach:

I just watched it for the first time too. Those kids have about 400 more miles of leeway in my mind now that I have a deeper, more disturbing understanding of how screwed up their childhood was.

That can't be unseen. Oh, my eyes!

Those poor kids. That's all they have learned. It just gets passed on down the line.

[Mama Mia]

Victoria and Albert were married February 10, 1840, so by 1895 the white wedding dress trend had had 55 years to take off.

I don't think formal portraits were that uncommon by then. My great grandparents all had them. It was my grandparents married during the Depression or just after who did not (maternal married in 1933, paternal married in 1941). Nor did they have formal weddings at all.

Sorry, I just meant I was surprised because they were very, very poor. They had recently come to the U.S. and were fruit pickers living in a couple tiny rooms of slapped together housing on their employers orchard. That they paid for a formal portrait AND a white dress that clearly couldn't be worn in normal circumstances just seemed really really weird to me.

[ILoveJellybeans]

That can't be unseen. Oh, my eyes!

Those poor kids. That's all they have learned. It just gets passed on down the line.

Maybe that's the reason for Jessa's private first kiss. Trauma from watching her parents dry hump on the golf course and however many years of disgusting PDA that you witness when you spend 21 years and 11 months living with these two sex addicts. "No, no, no, no, no, ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, I am never ever going to do that, or have anyone see me doing that, in fact, nobody in the world will ever see us kiss. Its strictly a private activity as I don't want to make anyone throw up"

[Toothfairy]

Why won't fundies just put all their kids in chastity belts? Instead of suppressing sexual emotions and feelings.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

In my former fundie (IFB) experience most couples I knew were definitely sneaking around and figuring it out to different degrees. There were only a small fraction that were really truly not touching til the bitter end. God, I was in a wedding where the couple was getting hotel rooms while they were supposedly "working". And a number of girls in fundie high school and bible college ended up pregnant. There's a lot of faking it in the fundie world. Lying starts to become second nature because so much of what is asked is just unnatural and ridiculous. Sneaking around is normal for a good portion of teens and young adults. Camps and special events in very large churches can help. :) That book that was mentioned at the start of the thread, The Act of Marriage, is actually a pretty good book, especially for someone who is super conservative. It does address pleasure, not just procreation. I read a copy of it when I was very deeply in fundie world and I definitely learned from it. That book is very much recommended and passed around in the IFB world. Among the couples I can think of there is a wide range of success and satisfaction. Oddly enough every fundie couple that I know who was forced to marry because of pregnancy and premarital sex have divorced. Then there are those who have had a lot of problems with sex, a lot of that because of the crazy expectations put on sex in the fundie world. And there are those who didn't have problems and are still all good. I'm not sure the range of success is really all that different than it is in the general public. It's not better though, as much as fundies want to say that their way is superior and always leads to happiness.

Personally, I did everything but with a couple guys but have only ever actually done the deed with my husband. I knew what an orgasm was from previous experiences and we managed to practically live together for a couple months before we got married since I managed to begin the break from the fundie world a couple years before we met and by the time we got together I was in a different city from anyone who would really take an interest in making sure I was pure. We had sex before we got married and I'm glad we did. Like a previous poster I wish I had done it with a few other people too. I was lucky though, our first time was awesome and things are still very good.

[Rebelwife]

I thought of this thread when I saw this column in my local paper yesterday.....

arcamax.com/lifeadvice/anniesmailbox/s-1582176

[doggie]

Why won't fundies just put all their kids in chastity belts? Instead of suppressing sexual emotions and feelings.

Buy used save the difference gives that a whole new meaning.

[DGayle]

Yeah, apparently the Duggars and Friends toss a book at their sons, but how much will they really learn from a single book? And giving the girls "a talk" isn't anything. Jana and Jill were going though a doula/midwife program, but childbirth and sex aren't the same thing, even though sex is usually what leads to childbirth. Having an orgasm as a girl must be scary.

[Aurora rising]

A friend of mine was raised in a very conservative islamic household and only kissed her husband before the wedding. Unfortunately the tradition at the wedding day is to wear a white costum with a red belt to indicate that you are a virgin. On top of it, she was raped as a child. She told me that it was very bad for her, she couldn´t stand it that everybody knew that they will do "the dirty thing" now. She is much better now, but her first marriage got divorced because of further sex problems. :(