Fundie Wedding Nights/Losing Virginity

[LongDogMom]

Joe and Elissa Maxwell's recent nuptials have me thinking, once again, about fundie wedding nights and sex. Yes, I've traded in my usual sex fantasies of Jodi Foster and Robert Downey,Jr. for something much, well, less interesting. Seriously, have the Maxwells or Duggars or anyone else talked about what they teach their children to expect from their wedding night or whole sexual exploration, once they actually get to touch each other? Do know what an orgasm is, or how to make each other feel good, or that it's OK to kiss using tongues, or to explore each other's bodies? I cannot imagine what that experience would be like without any exposure to media, previous touch, or public school playgrounds. Any thoughts on this? Any fundie posts that explain it? Sorry if this has been addressed in a previous topic.

I wonder the same thing. I mean, do they only kiss with their lips closed? Do they know to open their mouths? How would they know? How much detail on anything other than the basics would the book Jim Bob gave Josh, for example, go into?

Plus, I know when my husband and I got married (26 years ago last April) that we were so exhausted from the stress of the wedding etc. that we just fell asleep on our wedding night (but we had had an intimate relationship prior to our wedding). Course the Duggars don't have a dinner reception or anything so I guess the couple can get away fairly early, but still. I can't imagine the pressure they might feel on the wedding day and then afterwards worrying about sex and performing and if it'll hurt, etc. (I mean, the first time isn't always that great).

The Duggars have made such a big deal out of no touching or kissing etc. before marriage, that it would almost be embarassing to see everyone the day after the wedding night. They would all know you were no longer a virgin (including the world watching). I know that sounds like grade school, but you know what I mean. I wonder if the other girls asked Jill what it was like, especially Jessa!

[browncoatslytherin]

I don't think that the religious view of sex used to be as harmful as it is today. I think that the current "purity culture" was birthed as a sort of religious response to the sexual liberation in the '70s and the AIDS crisis of the '80s. The result was an obsession with sexual purity revolving around shame. I feel like the movement gained momentum through the '90s and really peaked around the early 2000s, just when I was in high school.

Luckily, so many people (even those who believe 100% that sex is only for marriage) are currently critiquing the movement that I feel like it may be on its way out. We can only hope!

i swear i could have written this myself. i went through the whole sex is shameful thing, and i believe it was due to what i dub the "purity madness" that i experience. i was bombarded since age 11 or 12 about purity. i even signed a card stating i wouldn't have sex before marriage and i even made the promise to not kiss until my wedding day. when i was raped at 15, it was extremely difficult for me, because i was now tainted. i wasn't pure anymore. i suffered through a good deal of depression because of that. i never told my mother about it until i was 21. my father didn't know until i was 23.

being out of the loop, christianity-wise, i don't follow those kinds of trends anymore. but i'm glad to hear it's on the way out.

[LongDogMom]

I don't think that the religious view of sex used to be as harmful as it is today. I think that the current "purity culture" was birthed as a sort of religious response to the sexual liberation in the '70s and the AIDS crisis of the '80s. The result was an obsession with sexual purity revolving around shame. I feel like the movement gained momentum through the '90s and really peaked around the early 2000s, just when I was in high school. Luckily, so many people (even those who believe 100% that sex is only for marriage) are currently critiquing the movement that I feel like it may be on its way out. We can only hope!

I hope so. I always worry about girls brought up in this culture who are raped or molested. Do they feel like they aren't worth anything any longer because they are no longer pure? Clearly some extreme religions/cultures view this as so, which is so clearly screwed up that it's almost impossible to believe it still exists in the 21st Century, but it does. I think the emphasis on purity takes away from the value of the young woman herself as a whole. It's like she has nothing to offer her husband without it. It really is just another facet of the person, and they place way too much on top of it, suggesting that if you are not pure then you are less and that's wrong.

It's like how the white wedding gown has come to be synonomous with purity, but that isn't how it started. Prior to Queen Victorian, woman did not wear white to marry. They often chose gowns of ""heavy brocaded gowns embroidered with white and silver thread," with red being a particularly popular colour in Western Europe more generally.[1] European and American brides had been wearing a plethora of colours, including blue, yellow, and practical colours like black, brown, or gray" Because laundering was still difficult, white was rarely worn, so to wear a white gown was a way to show that you were so wealthy you didn't need to worry about getting a white gown dirty. After Queen Victoria chose white for her wedding, the trend spread among the elite and later among the middle class after WWII. "Etiquette books then began to turn the practice into a tradition and the white gown soon became a popular symbol of status that also carried "a connotation of innocence and sexual purity" (source: Wikipedia)

That's why it always kills me when people snark on a woman who is not a virgin wearing a white bridal gown. Who cares? It's just a dress people! Sorry...got off topic and went on a rant there!

[Rainytown]

That's why it always kills me when people snark on a woman who is not a virgin wearing a white bridal gown. Who cares? It's just a dress people! Sorry...got off topic and went on a rant there!

I got slut-shamed on my wedding day from one of my guests. My husband is Jewish. I wanted to do the smashing the glass thing as part of our ceremony. One of my guests made the point that the smashing of the glass denoted "virginity", and I obviously was not one, since I lived with my husband for two months before we got married. (Let's just say I wanted him to know exactly what we were both getting into.)

And, yes, I wore a big white satin ballgown and a veil, because it was none of his business.

[guitar_villain]

Okay, I'm going to share my experiences with purity culture. Be warned-- this will be long.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

...However, he could tell I wasn't super "into" it. And I definitely wasn't having orgasms! That really bothered him. He wanted me to physically enjoy sex, but when I told him it was fine and I really liked the emotional aspect of it, he told me he wanted me to enjoy it because it made him enjoy it more. In other words, even my pleasure was all about him-- he wanted to feel "manly" for pleasing me. (I'm now suspicious of anyone who seems overly invested in a partner's orgasm.)

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Speaking as an XY type, I think you are probably a bit paranoid here. By far the best part of sex for me is having my partner totally lose it. Why? Well, sex is fun physically but honestly that can be done solo. The emotional part is the real payoff for doing it with some one else

A) I just managed to give someone I love a great time. That's always a good feeling

B) There's a level of emotional intimacy built into really good sex- the kind where you forget inhibitions and just do "I don't care if the neighbors hear" funtime. That's tough to achieve - it requires serious trust in the other person, especially for the woman. Knowing that she's willing to do that is a tremendous emotional turn on, and something you remember long after the physical bits are forgotten.

Yes, I get that sometimes her orgasm just isn't going to happen even if she wants sex, and again you have to have the level of emotional trust to be willing to accept that too. But I will admit to being disappointed, not because I feel like a failure as a lover but because I really do want her to have a good time.

[Firiel]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Speaking as an XY type, I think you are probably a bit paranoid here. By far the best part of sex for me is having my partner totally lose it. Why? Well, sex is fun physically but honestly that can be done solo. The emotional part is the real payoff for doing it with some one else

A) I just managed to give someone I love a great time. That's always a good feeling

B) There's a level of emotional intimacy built into really good sex- the kind where you forget inhibitions and just do "I don't care if the neighbors hear" funtime. That's tough to achieve - it requires serious trust in the other person, especially for the woman. Knowing that she's willing to do that is a tremendous emotional turn on, and something you remember long after the physical bits are forgotten.

Yes, I get that sometimes her orgasm just isn't going to happen even if she wants sex, and again you have to have the level of emotional trust to be willing to accept that too. But I will admit to being disappointed, not because I feel like a failure as a lover but because I really do want her to have a good time.

*sigh* I will respond to this when I get to a computer. I can't stand writing massive walls of text on my phone.

[calimojo]

I'm not sure why a couple of inexperienced fundies can't try a little mutual experimentation... do the books say that "missionary position man on top" is the ONLY HOLY way to procreate?

ETA: I totally get the lack of improvement after years of trying for some people. In my case, the XH was more interested in boys than girls... and I am all girl.

Well, if I remember JB humping M on the mini golf course, they weren't simulating "missionary", so I think they must allow a little doggy style here and there. With M being preggo all the time, Doggy style might have been a necessary accommodation.

[lawlifelgbt]

I can vouch. Even with no experience, you will figure it out if the couple wants to have sex!

I know because (TMI) my wife and I (both female) had never had sex with women before we started being together like that, and I hadn't had any sex, full stop, gay or straight. It was really awkward the first few times, but we eventually worked it out.

I don't know if all fundies can really work it out together though, since masturbation is not allowed and the headship-submission power dynamic probably harms intimate communication. That's what I wonder about.

[Josieandtheduggarcats]

I read a great book that covers this topic. God and Sex: How religion distorts Sexuality. By Darrel Ray. I was surprised by how much Christianity has limited my own sexuality. I was raised in a very liberal church yet Christian ideas of morality are everywhere. I think it's almost impossible to think that young fundies are having good sex.

[jerkit]

I read a great book that covers this topic. God and Sex: How religion distorts Sexuality. By Darrel Ray. I was surprised by how much Christianity has limited my own sexuality. I was raised in a very liberal church yet Christian ideas of morality are everywhere . I think it's almost impossible to think that young fundies are having good sex.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this. I've heard a lot of former fundie/evangelical perspectives on this but I'm interested in hearing a liberal Christians perspective.

[polecat]

This might be interesting to some of you: givemesexjesus.com/

[cindyluvs24]

This was so bad, i felt compelled to write my first review to encourage people to wave off from buying this book.

... finally had to put the book down in absolute disappointment when I came to the one brief entry on oral sex that basically boiled the act as a 'crutch' for men lacking the self-discipline to use intercourse to bring their mate to orgasm (chapter 15, pg 242).

Well, crutch away.

[jerkit]

Well, crutch away.

It makes ZERO sense. Orgasm doesn't just require time. It requires stimulation in the right location and method. Gahhhh.

[Toothfairy]

Well my parents didn't talk about the S word at all to us. They just said don't do it or you will go to hell. No mentioned of orgasms, self stimulation, how things work. I had to figure all of that on my own. I can't lie I did feel somewhat ashamed when I started having sex even though I was married. For me whole life I grew up with people saying sex is wrong, it's a special gift that you hold onto. People who have sex before marriage or used and nobody wants them. Then when I did get married and lost my virginity I felt bad that I didn't have nothing else to give my husband. He got what he wanted now what? Then people don't tell you how horrible the sex is going to be. Or that it takes practice to get it right. They just tell you the night of your wedding it's suppose to be magical. I never knew about the clitoris, the female orgasm until college. And that was all from reading books. Touching yourself was wrong growing up as well as having sexual urges. That was suppose to be saved for marriage. I was never taught that having these urges were normal. I was never taught about sexual simulation or how a man/women get aroused. I had to figure that out on my own. I was lucky that I have a husband that understood and didnt force me to so anything i didnt feel like doing. Nor did he made feel guilty or bad about myself. And I never understood why the message is different for women than men. Men can enjoy sex but women cant?

[LongDogMom]

I am so very sorry that happened to you!! And of course you know that you are not tainted or "less than" in any way. Something horrible happened TO you and that is extremely sad and horrible. I can't imagine how much worse the whole emphasis on purity and saving your virginity for your future husband would make the whole thing a hundred times more difficult to deal with.

Huge hugs!

[browncoatslytherin]

thanks :) i'm dealing with the ptsd better, but sometimes it is just one day at a time. overall much better, though, and i have a great fiance now who supports me and helps me.

[alba]

No, but like I said above, a lot of them prohibit oral sex, mutual masturbation, etc (basically anything other than PinV intercourse) so there's little opportunity to explore.

Please tell me they're at least allowed plenty of foreplay.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

The idea of PIV without a good 15-20 minutes of foreplay makes me cringe.

[Coco]

and the right kind too. So many of these fundie guys are raised with a taker mentality.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

They might have heard women like touch so they give her "foreplay" by grabbing a boob or grinding on her thigh. Just like Jim Bob on the golf course humping Michelle and asking her on camera if it turned her on.

[FJSharkJump]

and the right kind too. So many of these fundie guys are raised with a taker mentality.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

They might have heard women like touch so they give her "foreplay" by grabbing a boob or grinding on her thigh. Just like Jim Bob on the golf course humping Michelle and asking her on camera if it turned her on.

What????? This happened? Gross!

[ILoveJellybeans]

What????? This happened? Gross!

Yes, it happened.

And it gets worse. They were doing it in front of Jessa and Ben and taunting them because they couldn't do it yet.

[16strong]

This might be interesting to some of you: givemesexjesus.com/

Produced by SideHug Films? Lmao, you have got to be kidding me. :lol:

[doggie]

This thread shows how much others are obsessed with sex as much as the fundies are [emoji12]

[Toothfairy]

This thread shows how much others are obsessed with sex as much as the fundies are [emoji12]

O no. I can't imagine humping my husband in front of my kids and their friends. Gross

[2xx1xy1JD]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Firiel:

I can understand that you grew up thinking out sex as being a duty that was all about the 's pleasure, and in that context, having your ex want you to orgasm would have seemed like another duty/demand piled on top of everything else. Plus, as you say, your ex happened to be a jerk.

I just would hate to see "partner being interested in your pleasure" as something that you will always view negatively.

If you unpack the rest of the junk - the parts about sex being a duty and not having control over your own body - and start from scratch viewing sex as an activity that should be a mutually enjoyable thing where physical intimacy is ideally part of emotional intimacy, it's different. It's an interactive thing, with each wanting to please the other and watching their partner's reactions.

There have been times that I knew that my orgasm just wasn't going to happen (due to physical stuff like pregnancy - the mechanics never worked for me), but my husband really didn't like the idea of just using me to get off when I wasn't into it. That's part of the reason that Ken and Cupboard Boy surprise me - what kind of a man wants sex with someone who isn't enjoying it? It doesn't say much about either his character or his skills.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

[Firiel]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Firiel:

I can understand that you grew up thinking out sex as being a duty that was all about the 's pleasure, and in that context, having your ex want you to orgasm would have seemed like another duty/demand piled on top of everything else. Plus, as you say, your ex happened to be a jerk.

I just would hate to see "partner being interested in your pleasure" as something that you will always view negatively.

If you unpack the rest of the junk - the parts about sex being a duty and not having control over your own body - and start from scratch viewing sex as an activity that should be a mutually enjoyable thing where physical intimacy is ideally part of emotional intimacy, it's different. It's an interactive thing, with each wanting to please the other and watching their partner's reactions.

There have been times that I knew that my orgasm just wasn't going to happen (due to physical stuff like pregnancy - the mechanics never worked for me), but my husband really didn't like the idea of just using me to get off when I wasn't into it. That's part of the reason that Ken and Cupboard Boy surprise me - what kind of a man wants sex with someone who isn't enjoying it? It doesn't say much about either his character or his skills.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Oh, I don't think it's bad to want your partner to enjoy sex! Of course not! But I remain suspicious of people who are overly invested in the orgasm for their partner. Enjoyable sex is not limited by orgasms. That may be the case for some women, especially those who don't really ever have trouble finishing. And that's great for them! But some people (*ahem* me) don't work that way. Telling someone fairly new to sex that they need to orgasm for you to enjoy it, especially when they struggle with anxiety, is a really mean and stupid thing to do. It's like telling a guy who struggles with ED because of anxiety that he better be able to get it up. And insisting on defining someone else's standards for enjoyable sex is pretty crappy too. Plus, I know there are guys out there who will have sex with women and then brag to their friends about how many times she finished or how loud she was or how much she enjoyed it. And in those cases, the guy is most definitely not having a mutually pleasurable experience because sex should be good for everyone. He's having a mutually pleasurable experience so he can feel superior about how great he is in bed.