In Which Robert Lurves "The Homeless"

[thoughtful]

Umm...I don't know about ya'll, but I'm pretty dang happy that someone is specializing in setting broken bones. It takes skill not to mess that up. Properly trained (read: specialized) physicians have saved my life, the lives of many others.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

Really. The strikethroughs I've added show my opinion of fairly basic human skills, and I would be sympathetic to someone who is missing some of those, as well. Some specialization is for humans, and not everybody can meet all expectations.

Bloviating about their fabulous skills in all things (or whatever things they value) is for assholes like Cabinetman. I'm fine with my abilities -- very limited (or nonexistant) in some areas, stronger in others.

What's the point of having a society and cooperating, if everybody has to be able to do everything?

[church_of_dog]

Really. The strikethroughs I've added show my opinion of fairly basic human skills, and I would be sympathetic to someone who is missing some of those, as well. Some specialization is for humans, and not everybody can meet all expectations.

Bloviating about their fabulous skills in all things (or whatever things they value) is for assholes like Cabinetman. I'm fine with my abilities -- very limited (or nonexistant) in some areas, stronger in others.

What's the point of having a society and cooperating, if everybody has to be able to do everything?

I don't really agree with your last statement. I don't think having a society and cooperating is a compelling reason to limit our skills (which I know isn't what you were saying, but the way you phrased it makes it seem that way). I have no problem with having my own strengths and weaknesses and leaning on others for their strengths/my weaknesses, but the more an ordinary person knows about whether the specialist is doing it right, the better the outcome. It's not like we've never seen medical malpractice, bank errors, shoddy carpentry, and governmental incompetence. And, the more abilities people have, the more flexibility there is in arranging who should do what.

I guess to me it's like a personal verson of "trust but verify" -- when I have someone else do something for me that I am totally oblivious about, not a clue if they're doing it right, I feel much more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, than I do when I have at least enough knowledge and ability to ensure they're doing the right thing.

[thoughtful]

I don't really agree with your last statement. I don't think having a society and cooperating is a compelling reason to limit our skills (which I know isn't what you were saying, but the way you phrased it makes it seem that way). I have no problem with having my own strengths and weaknesses and leaning on others for their strengths/my weaknesses, but the more an ordinary person knows about whether the specialist is doing it right, the better the outcome. It's not like we've never seen medical malpractice, bank errors, shoddy carpentry, and governmental incompetence. And, the more abilities people have, the more flexibility there is in arranging who should do what.

I guess to me it's like a personal verson of "trust but verify" -- when I have someone else do something for me that I am totally oblivious about, not a clue if they're doing it right, I feel much more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, than I do when I have at least enough knowledge and ability to ensure they're doing the right thing.

Oh, absolutely -- I think we're in agreement about that.

Re: the red -- glad you put that in, because I certainly wasn't praising ignorance or naivety -- that's why I said "everybody" and "everything." In fact, I tend to be a pretty compulsive learner, both out of natural curiosity and, as you said, to make sure I am not cheated.

Of course it's a good idea for any and all of us to be as educated as we can be about anything that will affect our lives. And I agree that having multiple skills, including in things that are not what we need every day, is a good thing.

But many of the things on the Heinlein list are pretty arbitrary, and the list is given voice by a fictional character who lives at least 2000 years, so he has plenty of time to learn all of that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long

And, as a music teacher, I live daily with the challenges that arise because knowing about something and having the physical skills to do it are very far apart sometimes. I can't count how many times I've given the "your ears and your brain understand immediately, we just have to give those muscles a chance to learn, and they only learn by repetition -- you're doing great, just keep it up" pep talk! :lol:

Somewhere between helpless naivety and trust, which is not wise, and trying to do and be everything, which is not possible, we all find our middle ground. We all make our choices, if we are allowed to do so, about how dependent to be on others, and what we need (or think we need) to live life as we want. I'd say the vast majority of us depend on society, and people with other skills, to balance things out, especially if we live in an industrialized setting.

edited for clarity

[feministxtian]

I know, right? I'm sure Robert has many reasons why servicemen aren't real men, but, wow, would it be funny to see him try to do what they do.

My son and his soldier friends would eat him for breakfast, burp and go back for seconds

[salex]

"Sky pilot" as slang for a preacher, military or not, goes back pretty far, as in this 1921 film title:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0012699/

When it became more associated with military chaplains, I don't know -- WWII, Korea, Vietnam? Maybe the general public thought of it that way after the 1968 song.

And speaking of the song, I am inspired:

He harangues his kids, as they stand in line

The smell of his farts makes their little eyes shine

He's there to boss them all that he can

To make them feel bullied, he’s a weak little man.

Big bully . . . big bully,

Bluster, though you’re wrong,

You'll never, never, never prove you’re strong.

He smiles at his poor wife, now.

Tells her he wants sex.

He knows not her needs, how they might be complex.

Sooner or late, she’d better comply,

Robert is a 48-hour guy.

Big bully . . . big bully,

Bluster, though you’re wrong,

You'll never, never, never prove you’re strong.

[bBvideo 560,340:24iuycqe]

[/bBvideo]

I had found the video but was not going to do a song, much less such a great one as what you have given us! :dance: Thank you!

[thoughtful]

I had found the video but was not going to do a song, much less such a great one as what you have given us! :dance: Thank you!

Aw, shucks, ma'am -- just doin' ma job. :D

Maybe it's because today is the one-year anniversary of Tool-o-ween, but I'm in a powerfully parodyin' mood.

[lawfulevil]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I didn't say I necessarily agreed with Heinlein. My list would probably go more like "get rid of Jehovah's witnesses, Google something, use a bus schedule, do your own laundry..."

But the quote SHOULD really piss off Cabinetman, which was the point.

I'd also like to point out that even Heinlein, a big fat chauvinist pig, managed to have expectations of "humans". Realistic or not, he didn't divide that list into two genders.

[church_of_dog]

Oh, absolutely -- I think we're in agreement about that.

Re: the red -- glad you put that in, because I certainly wasn't praising ignorance or naivety -- that's why I said "everybody" and "everything." In fact, I tend to be a pretty compulsive learner, both out of natural curiosity and, as you said, to make sure I am not cheated.

Of course it's a good idea for any and all of us to be as educated as we can be about anything that will affect our lives. And I agree that having multiple skills, including in things that are not what we need every day, is a good thing.

But many of the things on the Heinlein list are pretty arbitrary, and the list is given voice by a fictional character who lives at least 2000 years, so he has plenty of time to learn all of that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long

And, as a music teacher, I live daily with the challenges that arise because knowing about something and having the physical skills to do it are very far apart sometimes. I can't count how many times I've given the "your ears and your brain understand immediately, we just have to give those muscles a chance to learn, and they only learn by repetition -- you're doing great, just keep it up" pep talk! :lol:

Somewhere between helpless naivety and trust, which is not wise, and trying to do and be everything, which is not possible, we all find our middle ground. We all make our choices, if we are allowed to do so, about how dependent to be on others, and what we need (or think we need) to live life as we want. I'd say the vast majority of us depend on society, and people with other skills, to balance things out, especially if we live in an industrialized setting.

edited for clarity

Yes, I agree. There is not really any such thing as complete independence. Interdependence is the name of the game. And some of us are a bit warier of "the system" than others, and some are more focused on being a jack- or jane-of-all-trades just for personal satisfaction. So, no right or wrong here. Sorry if I came off sounding harsh. I guess I just had a soft spot for that quote :embarrassed: although keeping in mind, as you said, the context in which he said it and the era in which he wrote it, I kinda like lawfulevil's sample list better...

[thoughtful]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I didn't say I necessarily agreed with Heinlein. My list would probably go more like "get rid of Jehovah's witnesses, Google something, use a bus schedule, do your own laundry..."

But the quote SHOULD really piss off Cabinetman, which was the point.

I'd also like to point out that even Heinlein, a big fat chauvinist pig, managed to have expectations of "humans". Realistic or not, he didn't divide that list into two genders.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I guess I got lost somewhere -- I thought the Heinlein list came up because Cabinetman liked it, or was using it as an example of how to be independent and strong.

I definitely take your point. I think we all have a mental list of basic skills, whether we've actually said it or not, and that it varies for everyone and changes with the times. And of course I agree that it shouldn't be based on gender.

[lawfulevil]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I guess I got lost somewhere -- I thought the Heinlein list came up because Cabinetman liked it, or was using it as an example of how to be independent and strong.

I definitely take your point. I think we all have a mental list of basic skills, whether we've actually said it or not, it varies for everyone and changes with the times. And I agree that it shouldn't be based on gender.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Nah, I quoted it because I think about it every time someone starts wanking on about PhDs in homemaking or Required Manly Man Card Skills or other gendered Required List of Skills type nonsense. I personally don't agree with at least half of the list- plan an invasion? What?

I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't drive to be able to change a flat tire. Childless people probably don't know how to change a diaper unless they had much younger siblings. I don't expect someone who rents (vs owns) to know much about house maintenance, the landlord is supposed to take care of that. And as long as you're not homeschooling your kids, I don't really care if you can't do algebra or if your grammar is awful or if you think the sky is blue because that's the color God picked at Sherwin Williams.

But there's a level of deliberate helplessness where you cross over from "well, everyone can't be good at everything" to "are you fucking kidding me here". I think it's vom-worthy how fundie men go on about how ahmayzing they are at relatively basic car and house repair tasks that need to be performed maybe every few years (my alternator hasn't broken in awhile...) but they're completely incapable of daily/weekly tasks that every neurotypical, able-bodied adult should be able to do. I mean, exactly how often do pipes up at Bob's place leak, anyway?

[SquirrelySquirrel]

To add on to the conversation: there are plenty of things I'm capable of doing but I much prefer to pay someone to do it for me!

My husband and I are very DIY kind of people, but for example, we have decided when we finally have a real pool we will happily pay someone to come level the yard and install it. We could do it but after experience woth an "easy set" type we know how difficult it is and it's worth the money to not have to do it in our lumpy, bumpy yard. We paid to have our Dog Guard fence put in and have a pro train us on how to train our dogs. We will rip out walls and insulate and hang dry wall, but pay to have windows installed correctly.

It's so absurd to make a laundry list for everyone to follow. Sure, there is absolutely some merit in being able to handle common household issues, like a running toilet or leaky pipe, but it's absurd to lump that in with things like butchering hogs. I'm in Farmville USA and will never need that skill.

[usmcmom]

This sentence sums up Robert's latest post.

I believe that egalitarianism, both in marriage and church roles, is not only not scriptural but not logical.

I seriously want to take a red pen to each of his ramblings.

For instance, most of us would have written something like this:

"I believe that egalitarianism, both in marriage and church roles, is unscriptural and illogical."

Not only does he enjoy the excessive use of apostrophes, but he is also a lover of "not."

[lawfulevil]

God help us all, he found out about thesauruses. You know how we can tell, Robbie? Your language suddenly got 300% fancier, but you're not using any of it right.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

This one's a grammatical hot mess even for Bob. Can you imagine how unbearable it must be to listen to his sermons?

[usmcmom]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I think he wrote this post specifically to drum up comments (maybe from Sheila?) and to get FJ all riled up. It's pretty funny that neither one is happening.

[Firiel]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I think he wrote this post specifically to drum up comments (maybe from Sheila?) and to get FJ all riled up. It's pretty funny that neither one is happening.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I haven't even tried to read it yet. I'm sure I won't be able to make heads nor tails of it.

[lawfulevil]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I think he wrote this post specifically to drum up comments (maybe from Sheila?) and to get FJ all riled up. It's pretty funny that neither one is happening.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

He's trying so hard to sound smart but it reads like a bad freshman composition draft.

[Firiel]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

He's trying so hard to sound smart but it reads like a bad freshman composition draft.

Ha ha! I literally just made that comparison in the thread about Lori calling Ken "lord."

Seriously. My biggest advice to him as a former grader of freshman papers would be to actually engage outside sources. Oh, and I would also probably point out the logical fallacies.

[lawfulevil]

He reminds me of a lot of people in my freshman composition class, thinking about it. 2000 words of rambling, largely repetitive, completely unsupported by anything but assfax? Check...

[Firiel]

He reminds me of a lot of people in my freshman composition class, thinking about it. 2000 words of rambling, largely repetitive, completely unsupported by anything but assfax? Check...

Plus bad grammar and a healthy dose of thinking he's the shit and knows everything.

[usmcmom]

Plus bad grammar and a healthy dose of thinking he's the shit and knows everything.

Don't you gals know nothin"? Real men ain't got good grammar!! All real men need is a good bull for rasslin' and a key to the shed to lock his woman in!

[browncoatslytherin]

Don't you gals know nothin"? Real men ain't got good grammar!! All real men need is a good bull for rasslin' and a key to the shed to lock his woman in!

i almost did a spittake with my coffee :lol: thank jeebus, the authorization forms remain unstained :D

[Curious]

I hate when threads I'm reading leave the first page. I missed a whole bunch of fun on this thread darn it! Can someone please set us to the time schedule they use in MIB? Thanks!

[lawfulevil]

We'll make sure and page you next time someone gives out the Bond treatment. :D