Cathy is a Breath of Fresh Air

[Georgiana]

I'm a firm believer in "practicing relationships" mainly because I'm the type of person to whom forming relationships (either romantic or platonic) has never come easily. High school was an important time for me because I learned skills on how to be an active part of a healthy relationship. I was not ready for marriage at that time. I did not intend to marry any of my HS boyfriends. But I gained a lot of emotional maturity through my experiences and skills that in my mid-twenties, I am happy to have.

It's easy to dismiss "dating around" if you're the type of person to whom relationships come easy. It's easy to dismiss ANY form of practice for things that you can just do naturally because you don't have a need for it. However, there are those that do.

If you really get something out of them, even relationships that do not lead to marriage aren't a waste of time. Marriage doesn't necessarily need to be the end goal of every romantic relationship to have it be worthwhile. If you come out of a relationship with a better skill, different perspective, or deeper understanding of yourself than you had going in, then that relationship was worth something.

Also, I hate dating men that haven't really had relationships before. They're still learning so many things, and it's frustrating to have to teach them everything. I like a man who is comfortable, confident, and knows how to communicate in a relationship.

[bluehydrangea]

^^ Like Georgiana, I needed the "practice relationships" or "dating around" to know what I wanted in a spouse/develop healthy relationship expectations and skills. My husband, on the other hand, never dated a single person until me. So I suppose it depends on the person; but I don't think it's a good idea to force every single person to follow the same standards.

[RosyDaisy]

I dated a lot of guys, but didn't have sex with all of them. You can count the number of men I've slept with on one hand, including my fiancee, and I'm in my 40s. I'm just one of those who has to love a man before I'll sleep with him.

[CorruptionInc.]

I dated a lot of guys, but didn't have sex with all of them. You can count the number of men I've slept with on one hand, including my fiancee, and I'm in my 40s. I'm just one of those who has to love a man before I'll sleep with him.

There is nothing wrong with this - if only the Duggars could see this seriously!!!

[SassyPants]

There's conservative- reserving sex for marriage and entering relationships cautiously and marrying once education is complete and careers established.

Then there's quackery...chaperones for adults, no frontal hugs, saving any alone time or private conversation for marriage, children until the uterus falls out or menopause hits- offspring raised with zero choices, limited formal education and few skills.

1 approach makes sense, the other is ridiculous.

[lonestarlonghorn]

"Wouldn't it make sense to wait until you're at a position to really get serious in a relationship and then maybe get married and then put the time into it?"

I know Cathy was not speaking of Ben, but that's who I thought of when I read this and unfortunately Ben's parents are so starstruck by Jessa that they are overlooking the basic fact that he is in no way ready for marriage.

[singsingsing]

Part of the reason I don't date much at all is because when I can see something about another person that I know would inhibit a long term successful relationship, I don't go any further. I wouldn't want someone to 'practice' being in a relationship on me, and I really don't want to use other people for practice, either. That's not what relationships are, to me. How many people do you need to practice with before you're ready for the real deal, anyway? 5? 10? 30?

[BrownieMomma]

Part of the reason I don't date much at all is because when I can see something about another person that I know would inhibit a long term successful relationship, I don't go any further. I wouldn't want someone to 'practice' being in a relationship on me, and I really don't want to use other people for practice, either. That's not what relationships are, to me. How many people do you need to practice with before you're ready for the real deal, anyway? 5? 10? 30?

I wish I had been more like this. The only thing that ever stopped me dead in my tracks from being interested in a guy was if there was already a woman in the picture somehow. Then he was mentally off-limits and I never crossed that line.

I don't quite get how you "practice" being in a relationship? Are both parties aware of it? Do you have some kind of playbook to follow?

If you are not really open and have your heart in it, what good practice is it?

Really it just smacks of using people IMO.

It was bad enough that he broke up with me when I thought the relationship was going well but then to tell me he was practicing because his therapist told him to "practice dating" wow, yeah, sorry there's no way that's kind or considerate or thinking of anyone except your own self.

[singsingsing]

I think it's really important to know yourself, to figure out what you like and dislike, what works for you, what your own faults and shortcomings are, and so on, and having relationships can help you learn all that, but that's not the only way to learn it. Dating a variety of different guys for 1 month or 1 year or 3 years isn't going to prepare you for 30 years of marriage to the same person. Nothing is. Nobody practices having children before they get pregnant. Nobody says, "Hey, I really want kids but I'm going to need to have a few practice babies first before I go for the real deal."

[grandmadugger]

I get what Cathy is saying. I can't say I really dated a lot. I had lots of friends who if I needed a plus one for an occasion I could call on. I enjoyed company over a dating relationship. Group dates were just more style. I could figure out if they would work out or not based on how my friends meshed with them. Only two guys ever passed the test of the friends. One lives in another state and is a dear friend. The other is on the couch snoring, my husband.

[antwan]

I

I would WAY rather my (nonexistent) children date around, and hell, even sleep around, than marry someone they just met

But Jill and Derick HADN'T "just met", even though much of the getting to know one another was done from a distance, online.

I have to say, plenty of couples meet, barely get to know one another, then move in together and/or marry, and the world doesn't generally question it. Fundies shouldn't be under any greater a microscope or criticism.

I also have to say I would NOT want my children to sleep around in lieu of pursuing a genuine, lasting relationship, but to each her own.

[Coco]

There's so much BS out there in dating advice too. Books girls read when they leave fundie land, to try to make sense of it all. For instance, He's Just Not That Into You and The Rules. Those books just take I Kissed Dating Goodbye and When God Writes Your Love Story and throw in a level of non-fundie. :angry-banghead:

and yes, those books will say practice dating. Especially The Rules. But what happens when the person they were just a tad more than friends with to practice opposite sex relationships just won't let go? Or they just want to be friends with benefits for a while, to get some fun practice, and the person doesn't get the hint? Then what? Ex-fundie girls need to learn to be able to stand up for themselves. We say these girls should be free, leave and make their own lives, but where are the websites to help them learn to live without the structure of their cages? They don't have school friends or any peers to turn to for actual advice; just books, TV shows, and movies.

Websites like Libby Anne's and H.A. need to start advertising on buses in Springdale. :lol: Some real help for girls who break free but are then clueless.

[Toothfairy]

I dated a lot of guys, but didn't have sex with all of them. You can count the number of men I've slept with on one hand, including my fiancee, and I'm in my 40s. I'm just one of those who has to love a man before I'll sleep with him.

Me too. Dating is fun. I didn't have sex with any of my dates except my husband who I married

[Toothfairy]

Part of the reason I don't date much at all is because when I can see something about another person that I know would inhibit a long term successful relationship, I don't go any further. I wouldn't want someone to 'practice' being in a relationship on me, and I really don't want to use other people for practice, either. That's not what relationships are, to me. How many people do you need to practice with before you're ready for the real deal, anyway? 5? 10? 30?

I agree. I mostly dated around for fun with a few guys. Nothing serious. I definitely wasn't practicing for anything. I wouldn't want someone practicing on me.

[Toothfairy]

But Jill and Derick HADN'T "just met", even though much of the getting to know one another was done from a distance, online.

I have to say, plenty of couples meet, barely get to know one another, then move in together and/or marry, and the world doesn't generally question it. Fundies shouldn't be under any greater a microscope or criticism.

I also have to say I would NOT want my children to sleep around in lieu of pursuing a genuine, lasting relationship, but to each her own.

Plenty of couples like that are taking a gamble. I know people who did this. Few remained married to the person they dated for two months. I wouldn't want my children to sleep around neither. You don't have to sleep with someone to have a relationship.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I wish I had been more like this. The only thing that ever stopped me dead in my tracks from being interested in a guy was if there was already a woman in the picture somehow. Then he was mentally off-limits and I never crossed that line.

I don't quite get how you "practice" being in a relationship? Are both parties aware of it? Do you have some kind of playbook to follow?

If you are not really open and have your heart in it, what good practice is it?

Really it just smacks of using people IMO.

It was bad enough that he broke up with me when I thought the relationship was going well but then to tell me he was practicing because his therapist told him to "practice dating" wow, yeah, sorry there's no way that's kind or considerate or thinking of anyone except your own self.

The only way "practicing" dating would work, for me, would be going on dates with people because I enjoy their company, not because I want a long-term relationship. But even that is outside of my comfort zone. (This is for me; if others date around and have fun, I have no problem with it.) Alternately, if the therapist meant something like "have a platonic friend pretend to be a date/potential date so the process of initiating a date is less terrifying".

[BrownieMomma]

The only way "practicing" dating would work, for me, would be going on dates with people because I enjoy their company, not because I want a long-term relationship. But even that is outside of my comfort zone. (This is for me; if others date around and have fun, I have no problem with it.) Alternately, if the therapist meant something like "have a platonic friend pretend to be a date/potential date so the process of initiating a date is less terrifying".

There are socially awkward people. I could easily see a scenario where a friend is enlisted, everyone knows this is practice and the socially awkward person actually goes through asking for a date, planning a date, going on the date, and ending the date.

This is not the same as hide your true intentions and just use people to have fun times. If both people doing the dating are on the same page, that's fine. But to set out to, to target, someone you have no actual intention of having a relationship but using that person with no regard to their feelings or their intentions or their desires, omg, how is that even remotely acceptable?

[Walking Cat Bed]

There are socially awkward people. I could easily see a scenario where a friend is enlisted, everyone knows this is practice and the socially awkward person actually goes through asking for a date, planning a date, going on the date, and ending the date.

This is not the same as hide your true intentions and just use people to have fun times. If both people doing the dating are on the same page, that's fine. But to set out to, to target, someone you have no actual intention of having a relationship but using that person with no regard to their feelings or their intentions or their desires, omg, how is that even remotely acceptable?

I have no argument with you on that. The two or three dates I've had via online dating were nothing but a few dates with that person, and we both approached it that way. But that's a different scenario than you described, in which your approach was pursuit of a relationship and he never hinted that his approach was the opposite. That's dirtbag behavior.

[Katie_Bug]

But Jill and Derick HADN'T "just met", even though much of the getting to know one another was done from a distance, online.

I have to say, plenty of couples meet, barely get to know one another, then move in together and/or marry, and the world doesn't generally question it. Fundies shouldn't be under any greater a microscope or criticism.

I also have to say I would NOT want my children to sleep around in lieu of pursuing a genuine, lasting relationship, but to each her own.

A lot of people do question relationships that progress quickly. Many people will make comments like, “aren’t you guys moving a little fast.†I think the only time someone can meet a person and move in with them/get married in quick succession is when the two people are older adults (like 70+). Any other time, people are going to be concerned. Religion has nothing to do with it.

[eh02]

A lot of people do question relationships that progress quickly. Many people will make comments like, “aren’t you guys moving a little fast.†I think the only time someone can meet a person and move in with them/get married in quick succession is when the two people are older adults (like 70+). Any other time, people are going to be concerned. Religion has nothing to do with it.

I don't think anyone else should tell you when to move your relationship into the next steps. Nobody really, truly knows what's best besides the couple. However...marriage is a considerably different ballgame than moving in together. Obviously neither marrying or moving in with someone you barely know is wise, but you will have a MUCH harder time divorcing someone than just moving out. It is legally and financially (and usually also emotionally and psychologically) very taxing to go through a divorce. Not to mention for fundies and evangelicals, it is breaking a covenant they consider very sacred.

Also, there's a huge difference in "average" dating vs. what the Duggars do. I can't even imagine how different my relationship with my current SO would be if we had to have a chaperone with us? I mean, we are grown ass adults and that sounds insane, but it's really worth thinking about. We'd act substantially different if there was someone here watching us 24/7. It would be harder to know who that person really is at their core when you haven't been around them alone.

Obviously a long lasting relationship with monogamous sex is the ideal for most people, but most people also are not ready to settle down with their lifelong mate at 18. Most of us do not have the same things in mind regarding what we need from a partner at 18 than we would at 28 or at 38. I'd rather them spend time finding out who they are and what they need in a partner, even if it includes "sleeping around" in the mean time (assuming they are having safe and mutually respectful sex) than to make a commitment they weren't ready for. I'm in a long-term, serious relationship and honestly, I wish I'd dated more when I was younger. I think it's good for you to go through the process, figure out ways to communicate well, how and when to compromise etc.

The Duggars have been told how their relationship dynamics should look and they don't question it. I just think your "young adult" years are very important and formative and are best spend unmarried.

[paintergurl]

Yes yes yes. And I don't like the term 'sleeping around' and the judgement it seems to imply.

My late-teen daughter is in a long-term "serious" relationship with her first boyfriend. She would call him her First Love. She would probably call him her Only Love. I have prepared her with information, birth control, and the understanding that she has Plenty of Time to create her life. And I consider her to be having a 'practice relationship' and I hope she learns a whole lot more before she makes up her mind to marry.

[LongDogMom]

I really like this approach as well. My son is about 16 1/2, and a junior in high school. He's a tall, skinny, good looking kid. A lot of people will ask me if he has a girlfriend. He does not and hasn't dated at all yet. That is perfectly fine with me. I would be happy for him to wait until he goes to college to start dating, but even then I'd be hoping it was more like him hanging out with a larger group of friends, and becoming friends first before dating.

It's not because I think he has pieces of his heart to protect. It's more about not getting side-tracked before he finishes college. More importantly, it's about him not accidentally getting a girl pregnant and suddenly his life path takes a big turn.

The Duggars are just so extreme about everything. They constantly tell their children that they won't be able to control themselves without being chaperoned, and without keeping a physical distance between themselves and their courting partner. I just think it's a terrible message to indoctrinate into your children from day one -- you're going to sin if you don't have someone watching your every move.

I agree that the Duggars give their children a terrible message about trust and self-control. You have to give your chidren a chance to live and learn and even make mistakes.

I was happy to have my boys not date too early. Both skipped two grades and entered highschool much younger that their classmates but both had a girlfriend (2 years older) their last year and went to their Proms. Both then went away to University and dated there (both went from long relationships to long relationships and didn't hop around much (I call them serial monogamers). They are 23 and 25 now and both have been with their girlfriends now for quite a few years each. My oldest and his just moved in together and plan to get engaged and married next year (they are saving up their money). My youngest is back in school working on his second degree and while he loves his gf, he isn't sure she's the one. She's only 21 and just finished up a Fine Art degree. While they have experienced heartache and disappointment at times in the past, I think it's been good for them to experience how different relationships can be. My youngest really appreciates his gf because he's been with girls who were not as giving or as much fun, so he loves those things about his current gf and is very aware of them. They've changed and grown from their various experiences and what they wanted or thought they wanted when they were 19 or 20 is very different than what they want now. As they have come to know themselves better, they also have come to know what they want in a wife and in their future.

I've encouraged mine not to rush into marriage. I've told them to travel and have fun and take some risks and get to know themselves and follow their dreams. Neither is in a huge rush to marry. My youngest doesn't think he wants to get married until around 30 and that's fine with me.

I don't think you can protect your kids from having their heart hurt and I'm not even sure you should. Instead I think the Duggars would be far better off encouraging their children to have strong self-confidence and get to know themselves and what they truly want to do with their lives. I'm not saying a marriage can't work out when you marry young. But you change and hopefully grow as you marry, age and have children. Maybe you will grow together and enrich each other, but many do not. When you really don't know yourself or what you really want deep inside, it's a gamble and many that marry in that situation end up very unhappy. Sometimes that unhappiness doesn't come out until middle age, but it will come out in some way or another.

Jill and Derick seem like a good match, although I'm not sure how well they really know each other despite all the talking. Most of what they said has been monitored and they were rarely alone to have any seriously deep conversations where they bear their souls to one another. Maybe that won't matter and they will be okay. Or maybe Derick will find out that the Duggar way isn't quite what he expected and Jill is too closed minded and he doesn't want to see his own kids raised with things like the Pearls blanket training technique despite the Duggars endorsement. Time will tell how much Jill is willing to bend and how much Derick will accept.

As for Jessa and Ben. That just seems like a total trainwreck waiting to happen. They really don't know each other and are both so immature. But the Duggars are so superficial in their relationships and how they interact, despite all this talk of really getting to know someone. It's like they never really have any deep conversations about feelings or emotions except stereotypical things and everything is about God and how Godly they are, which is supposed to prove how deep they are or that they are extra good people. But it just doesn't come off as genuine to me. They seem somehow emotionally stunted. Like how they didn't consider Jana's feelings regarding the dress alterations and her missing lunch with everyone or not comforting her about the jewlery box thing which clearly is still very upsetting to her. Everything feels like it's for show, like an act they all put on.

[VelociRapture]

Personally, I was fortunate enough to meet my FI when I was 19. He is the only man I have ever dated or had any kind of romantic relationship with. I didn't need to practice having a relationship with anyone or date a bunch of people. This was partly luck that we met when we did and it was also partly because I always had the mindset that I wouldn't start a relationship with someone that I didn't see myself getting serious with one day. That works for some people, but it really didn't hold any appeal for me.

I honestly think what Cathy meant was that you need to concentrate on getting through school and getting to know yourself as a person before committing to a relationship and that she didn't want her sons to be the type of people that don't care about other people's emotions. I think she is just like most parents in the sense that she didn't want them getting distracted from their education. Maybe she could have worded it better, but I don't think she is Fundie or anything.

[BrownieMomma]

Personally, I was fortunate enough to meet my FI when I was 19. He is the only man I have ever dated or had any kind of romantic relationship with. I didn't need to practice having a relationship with anyone or date a bunch of people. This was partly luck that we met when we did and it was also partly because I always had the mindset that I wouldn't start a relationship with someone that I didn't see myself getting serious with one day. That works for some people, but it really didn't hold any appeal for me.

I honestly think what Cathy meant was that you need to concentrate on getting through school and getting to know yourself as a person before committing to a relationship and that she didn't want her sons to be the type of people that don't care about other people's emotions. I think she is just like most parents in the sense that she didn't want them getting distracted from their education. Maybe she could have worded it better, but I don't think she is Fundie or anything.

I have two kids in high school and I do not want them to get a serious bf/gf in HS. I don't even want them to date, really. I want them to focus on their education, activities, family, church, friends, and pets.

Like Derick, not like Ben.

[bluehydrangea]

I feel like I need to clarify the "practice relationships" term some are using -- I don't think most people, including myself, mean it as literally as it's being taken: it's not like I made a decision in high school to pick someone out and say, "K, I'm going to practice being in a relationship with you now". Every guy that I've ever dated, I dated because I liked. With the intention of marriage, you might say, though not usually in the immediate future. When I started to feel like it wasn't going to work out in the long run, I would break it off, or he would...whichever came first. I still call them practice relationships, because in the end, that's what they were. And I feel that they benefitted me in my marriage down the road because I learned a lot from each relationship I had, and I don't feel the need to defend that or say "I only dated a few and I didn't have sex with all of them" and blah blah blah because there's nothing wrong with dating others before marriage. My husband didn't date anyone before me, and he was where he needed to be when he met me. Everyone is different.