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Chapel in Idaho refusing gay couples


Firiel

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thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/10/20/3581733/idaho-marriage-chapel-adf/

A wedding chapel in Idaho is going to be affected by Coeur d'Alene's anti-discrimination law and is filing a lawsuit so they do not have to marry gay couples. The chapel is a wedding business, but the couple who run it are ordained ministers and not justices of the peace.

I've always felt that gay marriage should be completely legal and accepted but that a church/minister shouldn't be forced to perform them, seeing as many ministers will not marry couples who live together, who are of different faiths, who don't attend the church, who don't do pre-marital counseling, etc.

This is clearly a for-profit business, so I don't think it should be exempt from the law. But I do understand (not agree with!) a minister feeling uncomfortable marrying a gay couple if their religious beliefs say that it's wrong. (In this case, the couple has offered non-religious marriages to straight couples in the past, so they are a bunch o' hypocrites.)

Anyway, perhaps a nice balance here would be to enforce the law on the company but allow them to contract an affirming minister to perform the gay marriages? I would rather be married by someone who doesn't think my relationship in an abomination anyway, personally. What do you all think?

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i agree with your assessment. a minister shouldn't be forced, but they're running a for-profit business, not just a church, and i don't think for-profit businesses are exempt or should be exempt just because they're owned by people who think they should be (hobby lobby, anyone?).

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The fact that they are ordained ministers is only pertinent when they are involved in something related to a church. Their business is not, so open a church and have weddings there.

Otherwise, that business is subject the law just like everyone else.

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i just wonder if, when they challenge it, they'll list the hobby lobby case. i can't help but think they will, and if they do, it will be a great boon to them and make it that much harder to defend against it.

i knew the hobby lobby ruling was a grave mistake with implications that would stretch way further than anyone wanted. i hope those justices are happy with themselves.

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Whats' odd is, all they have to do if bring in an outside minister of Justice of the Peace willing to preform a same sex ceremony. The ministers running the place don't have to do the service themselves.

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As I said in another thread, I don't believe a business should be forced to contract with anybody.

And no, that's not because they are ministers. In fact, I think if you have these laws in first place, everyone (regardless their profession) should be forced to obey them. No exeption for religous institutions!

But well, I think these laws are wrong in first place.

Not that I'm for any kind of discrimination! But I don't think it's a solution to force people into doing business with other people if they don't want to.

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A pagan friend took a view of marriage i like a lot; attending a wedding says to the universe and whatever god or gods one is asking to witness said wedding that you approve of this couple. if you do not approve then do not attend the wedding. I would say this goes double for an officiant. not saying their reasons are good or bad. But i do not get the reasoning behind forcing a merchant to provide services for an event of any kind that they do not approve of. would the celebrants not get better service and a much nicer finished product from a merchant or officiant who does approve of their event?

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Typing on my phone because I have a new laptop and don't remember my password :? I googled the story and read three different articles, then Googled the chapel. (Because I am lame and do actually have better things to do but do t want to) so some facts I gleaned are: it's called "The Hitching Post Chapel" which by the way, looks as tacky as the name.

Clearly it's purpose is to marry people. The name does include chapel, and in the FAQ section makes the distinction that the difference between them and city hall weddings is ordained ministers. The owners are ordained ministers of a Penticostal denomination, and say t is forbidden for them to perform the wedding. I could not find if there was an option to bring in ministers for this. It also sees that they applied for some sort of religious status on Oct,7 (not sure the legal ramifications of this)and the law passing gay marriage was passed on Oct. 15.

So it is a business that performs weddings, so yeah it would be illegal to discriminate against the couple as it would be illegal for the florists, and caterers to do business with them. And they should of bought in someone who would marry gay people. They either were too stupid to come up with that idea, or heterosexualists ( a word I learned today in my ethics class!)

A concearn that was raised was, could independant ministers who perform weddings for a profit be sued or forced to marry gay couples?

This is where the trouble is going to be. .The only semi reasonable argument I heard against gay marriage was that gay couples would insist on being married by churches opposed to homosexuality. I understand that the ministers are not affiliated with specific churches, this just seems like such a slippery slope to me.. I have heard a lot of positive open dialog on gay marriage lately, I feel that these kinds of cases will slow progress in the acceptance.

A religious pharmacist cannot refuse to sell birth control, or the abortion pill. Nurses and doctors cannot refuse to perform an abortion in an emergency situation and I think those are both right.

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If an ordained minister works as an EMT on a couple weekdays, could he refuse medical care to a gay person because he's an ordained minister? No. Outside the church, your clergy title doesn't matter. If it did, then everyone who wants to discriminate legally would find a hack church to ordain them.

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If an ordained minister works as an EMT on a couple weekdays, could he refuse medical care to a gay person because he's an ordained minister? No. Outside the church, your clergy title doesn't matter. If it did, then everyone who wants to discriminate legally would find a hack church to ordain them.

I was saying the same thing, not disagreeing with you.

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Americans are not married in town hall ?

Some are but often it's at a church or a scenic place (beach, hotel) or a chapel, which kind of looks like a church and is decorated but without a religious theme.

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Some are but often it's at a church or a scenic place (beach, hotel) or a chapel, which kind of looks like a church and is decorated but without a religious theme.

So, that's why weddings are more beautifull in US movies... ;)

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If the chapel is aware of the minister's beliefs on gay marriage, then this case should

be dismissed. It doesn't matter if they are for profit or not. They knowingly hired ministers that were against gay marriage. Nobody should force a minister to marry anyone. That is a clear violation of freedom of religion and separation of church of state. This is coming from someone who believes gay marriage should be legalized.

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If the chapel is aware of the minister's beliefs on gay marriage, then this case should

be dismissed. It doesn't matter if they are for profit or not. They knowingly hired ministers that were against gay marriage. Nobody should force a minister to marry anyone. That is a clear violation of freedom of religion and separation of church of state. This is coming from someone who believes gay marriage should be legalized.

The chapel is owned by a married man and woman who are ordained ministers from the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel.

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I just lost my post!

The pastors marry people as a form of income, the chapel is a business whose purpose is to marry people. There is no actual services there. They cannot refuse to marry them the same way a florist can not refuse to provide services to them. It would be like refusing to marry somebody based on their skin color.

If it were an actual church and they were the pastors, they could refuse because it is not a private business for profit.

The couple are forcing them to prove a point.

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I just lost my post!

The pastors marry people as a form of income, the chapel is a business whose purpose is to marry people. There is no actual services there. They cannot refuse to marry them the same way a florist can not refuse to provide services to them. It would be like refusing to marry somebody based on their skin color.

If it were an actual church and they were the pastors, they could refuse because it is not a private business for profit.

The couple are forcing them to prove a point.

There is no comparison between skin colors and sexual choices.

Skin color cannot be changed, cannot be hidden except perhaps under a burqa. There is never a day that a black person can say "today I will abstain from being black."

A relationship is always a choice. You never have to enter a relationship. You can hide a relationship. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Relationships can and do end. Skin color never ends.

There's no comparison between skin color and relationship choice. It is so completely disingenuous to try to co-opt a personal choice on the backs of people of color, who, as you may remember, have no choice about the color of their skin. Ever.

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There is no comparison between skin colors and sexual choices.

Skin color cannot be changed, cannot be hidden except perhaps under a burqa. There is never a day that a black person can say "today I will abstain from being black."

A relationship is always a choice. You never have to enter a relationship. You can hide a relationship. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Relationships can and do end. Skin color never ends.

There's no comparison between skin color and relationship choice. It is so completely disingenuous to try to co-opt a personal choice on the backs of people of color, who, as you may remember, have no choice about the color of their skin. Ever.

A person is born gay. It is who they are. And if you don't want to serve someone because of the way they were born, don't have a public business. End of story. You don't get a pass because your fucked up religious beliefs. And yes, believing that you can't serve a person because they are gay is just as fucked up as believing that you can't serve a person because they are black. It is indefensible.

The comparison works because businesses are saying that they don't want to serve someone just because of the way they are born. In the past it was skin color(they didn't even want to serve those people who could pass as white), now it is being gay.

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There is no comparison between skin colors and sexual choices.

Skin color cannot be changed, cannot be hidden except perhaps under a burqa. There is never a day that a black person can say "today I will abstain from being black."

A relationship is always a choice. You never have to enter a relationship. You can hide a relationship. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Relationships can and do end. Skin color never ends.

There's no comparison between skin color and relationship choice. It is so completely disingenuous to try to co-opt a personal choice on the backs of people of color, who, as you may remember, have no choice about the color of their skin. Ever.

Do you think gay people choose to be gay then? My step brothers live and grew up in a very macho country a culture that where most familes completely disown gay people. I am pretty sure they would rather find a nice girl and settle down rather than being disowned. I can't imagine a successful marriage where the man was attracted to men instead of women. Even if he was a nice man who cared about his wife, she deserves to be with someone who would fulfill her not only emotionally but physically/ sexually. He deserves to be in a flourishing loving relationship too. Do you think that gay people don't deserve to be in a loving relationship where they care for each other's happiness, respect one another, and care for each other?

I think more people are helped than harmed by antidiscrimintion laws. I am at a loss to think of anybody that has truly been harmed by antidiscrimintion laws actually.

I also think antidiscrimintion laws protect those who don't want to discriminate. Before civil rights laws people white people were pressured not to help/ serve black people, and became victims themselves if they chose to serve them. I think it's all high and idealistic to say"while I think it's wrong to discriminate, others have the right to, ....... I know I would never do that, even if everyone else around me does, and I would risk harming my business, and the financial security of my family, because I am so moral, I would do the right thing!" It's easy for you to say that, I am not sure I believe it though.

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There is no comparison between skin colors and sexual choices.

Skin color cannot be changed, cannot be hidden except perhaps under a burqa. There is never a day that a black person can say "today I will abstain from being black."

A relationship is always a choice. You never have to enter a relationship. You can hide a relationship. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Relationships can and do end. Skin color never ends.

There's no comparison between skin color and relationship choice. It is so completely disingenuous to try to co-opt a personal choice on the backs of people of color, who, as you may remember, have no choice about the color of their skin. Ever.

Would it be ok if a store told gay people they could not shop there? Let's leave religion out of this for a moment.

Would it be okay for an emergency room doctor to refuse to save a gay person's life?

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There is no comparison between skin colors and sexual choices.

Skin color cannot be changed, cannot be hidden except perhaps under a burqa. There is never a day that a black person can say "today I will abstain from being black."

A relationship is always a choice. You never have to enter a relationship. You can hide a relationship. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Relationships can and do end. Skin color never ends.

There's no comparison between skin color and relationship choice. It is so completely disingenuous to try to co-opt a personal choice on the backs of people of color, who, as you may remember, have no choice about the color of their skin. Ever.

Ok, I can tell you: you can't chose if you are gay or not. I'm gay myself, and although I don't mind being gay, my life would be so much easier if I was straight. Mostly because of stupid government laws which prohibit me from living life as I want to.

There are people gettin killed and put into prison by governments on a daily basis because they are gay. Do you seriously think they chose to be this way??

It's also pretty much proven that people are born gay. Some just hide it and claim to be straight, but that doesn't mean they really are straight, they are just hiding their true identity.

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There is no comparison between skin colors and sexual choices.

Skin color cannot be changed, cannot be hidden except perhaps under a burqa. There is never a day that a black person can say "today I will abstain from being black."

A relationship is always a choice. You never have to enter a relationship. You can hide a relationship. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Relationships can and do end. Skin color never ends.

There's no comparison between skin color and relationship choice. It is so completely disingenuous to try to co-opt a personal choice on the backs of people of color, who, as you may remember, have no choice about the color of their skin. Ever.

:naughty: :wtf:

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As I said in another thread, I don't believe a business should be forced to contract with anybody.

And no, that's not because they are ministers. In fact, I think if you have these laws in first place, everyone (regardless their profession) should be forced to obey them. No exeption for religous institutions!

But well, I think these laws are wrong in first place.

Not that I'm for any kind of discrimination! But I don't think it's a solution to force people into doing business with other people if they don't want to.

Actually you ARE pro-discrimination. You fully support letting business discriminate against people. Do you have any idea how fucked up you are because of this? You're probably a straight, white Christian who wouldn't face much, if any, discrimination. If you were gay, black, or non-Christian, you'd be able to see how awful this is, and you are for thinking it's okay!!

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There is no comparison between skin colors and sexual choices.

Skin color cannot be changed, cannot be hidden except perhaps under a burqa. There is never a day that a black person can say "today I will abstain from being black."

A relationship is always a choice. You never have to enter a relationship. You can hide a relationship. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Relationships can and do end. Skin color never ends.

There's no comparison between skin color and relationship choice. It is so completely disingenuous to try to co-opt a personal choice on the backs of people of color, who, as you may remember, have no choice about the color of their skin. Ever.

How does it feel up there on your perch of hate and willful ignorance? Sure, a relationship is a choice, but not your orientation. In parts of this world, marriages are arranged, and the little girls never see their husbands until the day of the ceremony. Is that okay? But two people of the same sex. Oh hell no, that's a choice you don't like. If you don't like the thought of two women getting married, then don't marry a woman. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of LGBT people, if given the choice, would pick being straight because we're the ones whose rights aren't up for debate with bigots like you trying to oppress them.

Since it's a choice, tell me when you CHOSE to be straight.

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Actually you ARE pro-discrimination. You fully support letting business discriminate against people. Do you have any idea how fucked up you are because of this? You're probably a straight, white Christian who wouldn't face much, if any, discrimination. If you were gay, black, or non-Christian, you'd be able to see how awful this is, and you are for thinking it's okay!!

Well, she is gay.

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