So much focus on the "first kiss", what about the marriage?

[bluebird]

It's just not natural. One of those girls could end up in a sexually humiliating marriage and not know what to do except to say "o.k."

[Toothfairy]

I think they're already sexually humiliated

[CorruptionInc.]

It's just not natural. One of those girls could end up in a sexually humiliating marriage and not know what to do except to say "o.k."

Boob apparently gave Josh books on it when he got married. How did he have time to learn the skills? Or was he given them before the wedding?

[Jay9]

I agree that they focus way too much on the first kiss, and other "purity rules". They don't care whether anyone is compatible, whether they are prepared for marriage, or whether they even like each other or not. All the care about is that the first kiss is on the wedding day. As if it is the most righteous and holy feat of all time. Very nonsensical and childish.

I grew up pretty fundie. My parents never really said anything about this, but I had heaps of friends, mentors, etc that strongly pushed these same ideas. My husband and I had our first kiss on our first real date because it felt right and we pretty much wanted to kiss long before the first date lol. But right afterward, as I relived the wonderful evening in my head, I felt strange, and wondered if I should feel bad or guilty. I truly didn't think I did something wrong, and I didn't regret it, but when that's all you are taught, it sort of sticks with you and you doubt yourself. I don't know of that makes any sense.

Even with being surrounded with these ideas growing up, to the point where they seemed "normal" when I was a young teen, I would have been mortified if I had my first kiss at my wedding. Especially if it was turned into a big deal. A marriage ceremony is just so much bigger and more important than a kiss, and a kiss shouldn't be the focus.

[FreeHannie!]

Yeah, my mother grew up fundie and while the 'no sex before marriage' was an expectation she says it wasn't discussed nearly as much as the Duggars do and there was no creepy purity rings and even she thinks the 'first kiss' thing is weird. She said in her fundie circles most people did 'everything but sex' before marriage.

(My mum left fundie-land before meeting my father. My mother and her sister were her family's equivalent of the lost girls, which is why I'd bet on one or more of Hannie/Jenny/Jordyn running).

[SassyPants]

In order to provide the strongest base, relationships are supposed to gradually grow.

I cannot imagine going from a hand to a P in the V all in one afternoon.

How special does that make the first Kiss?

The first real hug?

The first private conversation?

The first walk, just the 2 of you?

The first car ride, alone?

Laughing together about something that only the 2 of you know?

From nothing to everyone in the pool, all within an afternoon-

Emotionally, physically, personally...it's just not right, IMO.

[MoonFace]

Boob apparently gave Josh books on it when he got married. How did he have time to learn the skills? Or was he given them before the wedding?

Wouldn't you have just loved to be a fly on the wall during that conversation? Having your dad tell you to bring the KY jelly and where to put it. Put your left hand here and your knees there...... Then you....

[SassyPants]

Wedding Day To Do List

Frontal Hug- check

Closed Mouth Kiss-check

Tongue in Mouth-check

Hand in.....

[Lovebug]

Waiting for the first kiss at the altar makes me cringe. Call me superficial but if I hated that first kiss at the altar, I'd be second guessing the vows I just made. Is that a crazy thing to think? Maybe, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And that's just the kissing part. Don't even get me started on the sexual compatibility...

Compatibility is more than just spiritually, and whatever other bullshit these people preach. Holding hands after announcing an engagement isn't exactly my idea of being physically in sync. Could you imagine being instantly turned off by a person after a kiss or real physical contact? Yeah - it would suck to be stuck with for the rest of your life.

Each to their own, but before I commit the entire rest of my life to someone, there's going to be some kissing and touching. No wedding vows for me until then. :naughty:

[Mela99]

They don't have to worry about the marriage - it's ordained and approved by God/Boob so HOW COULD IT FAIL???

Besides, all they think marriage exists for is making babies and more Jesus soldiers.

[Letgo]

A couple episodes ago, they showed JB and Michelle having a counseling session with Jill and Derick. Did they receive counseling from anyone else? How comfortable would Derick be to disagree with his future in-laws? Is Jill okay with discussing EVERY topic with her parents? I guess it would be okay to have parents who are a happily married couple speak to them, but a more neutral party should be doing the main counseling sessions. All the Duggar focus is on keeping sweet, staying pure and saving everything except side hugs and handholding for the marriage. I keep wondering, why are those two things allowed? And why does hand holding need to be after engagement?

I really hope that much of what we see leading up to Jill's marriage is because of TLC's editing. I hope that privately there has been more emphasis on the actual marriage and how to live with another person, especially for Jill. She has only lived with her family. Derick most likely had roommates at college, and he spent two years in Nepal. I hope Derick has some say in all of this and isn't blindly following along in order to be with Jill. Please, please let his non-ATI upbringing add some sanity to this marriage. I don't want the Dilly kids to be isolated and sheltered; Derick wasn't and he turned out just fine. Fine enough to impress JB and to marry Jill, all without an ATI "education." I hope Jill realizes that so there is hope for the children.

[CorruptionInc.]

In order to provide the strongest base, relationships are supposed to gradually grow.

I cannot imagine going from a hand to a P in the V all in one afternoon.

How special does that make the first Kiss?

The first real hug?

The first private conversation?

The first walk, just the 2 of you?

The first car ride, alone?

Laughing together about something that only the 2 of you know?

From nothing to everyone in the pool, all within an afternoon-

Emotionally, physically, personally...it's just not right, IMO.

I am hoping that some Duggars that get married in the future go "maybe we should wait a bit?"

[It'sFunToRun]

A couple episodes ago, they showed JB and Michelle having a counseling session with Jill and Derick. Did they receive counseling from anyone else? How comfortable would Derick be to disagree with his future in-laws? Is Jill okay with discussing EVERY topic with her parents?

She's always done that. They have a meeting once a month where they tell their parents everything that is bothering them, their dreams, and what is going on in their "thought life".

I guess it would be okay to have parents who are a happily married couple speak to them, but a more neutral party should be doing the main counseling sessions. All the Duggar focus is on keeping sweet, staying pure and saving everything except side hugs and handholding for the marriage. I keep wondering, why are those two things allowed? And why does hand holding need to be after engagement?

My theory is that side hugging is allowed because it looks good in pictures. They specifically said that at the beginning they are allowed to side hug to say "hello" and "goodbye" and for pictures. If the Duggars weren't a high-profile family, I could see them not allowing side hugs.

I really hope that much of what we see leading up to Jill's marriage is because of TLC's editing. I hope that privately there has been more emphasis on the actual marriage and how to live with another person, especially for Jill. She has only lived with her family. Derick most likely had roommates at college, and he spent two years in Nepal. I hope Derick has some say in all of this and isn't blindly following along in order to be with Jill. Please, please let his non-ATI upbringing add some sanity to this marriage. I don't want the Dilly kids to be isolated and sheltered; Derick wasn't and he turned out just fine. Fine enough to impress JB and to marry Jill, all without an ATI "education." I hope Jill realizes that so there is hope for the children.

Honestly, I think Jill turned out fine too. Her beliefs aren't my cup of tea, but if everyone thought like me, there wouldn't be any doctors because everyone would pass out at the sight of blood, and there would never be enough drumsticks.

[Toothfairy]

Boob apparently gave Josh books on it when he got married. How did he have time to learn the skills? Or was he given them before the wedding?

At least Josh gets book. I bet Steve's sons doesn't get shit.

[OneFifthQuiverFull]

Right about now, about 21 years ago, my husband and I shared our first kiss (we'd go on to have sex out of wedlock, live together, and legit conceive twins on our honeymoon (I am only sure of that because we were far too busy for sex the 3-4 weeks leading up to the wedding day, plus that was old news to us evil ones)).

Anyway, I don't really remember that first kiss, but what I do remember was rolling around the memory of that first kiss the next day at work, and reliving the butterflies. It was just a kiss, but it was a wonderful kiss, and I was absolutely giddy the next day. It was awesome, and the start of the knitting together that ties us together to this day.

If the ultimate goal is to create and sustain life-long happy marriages, they have GOT to understand that there is more than one path to that. I understand that sex before marriage is a SERIOUS deal for some people and I respect that. But sexual chemistry can be developed and nurtured, and previous experience helps with that. Not to offer TMI or dog on my husband, but he didn't have all the right moves at first. We had the chemistry, but I had to teach him some things as we went along. Not everyone is an skilled lover, and that takes some patience and understanding of the mechanics of sex and what pleases you and your partner. That doesn't mean tramping it up beforehand so you have first-hand knowledge of every position, but having an idea of what makes it enjoyable for you, what can make it enjoyable for them, and what you can discover together with the knowledge you both bring. That doesn't even mean exploring with other partners, but even exploring yourself and understanding yourself. My husband genuinely says nothing turns him on like seeing me turned on, so it's not about being selfish.

These puritanical rules are so unhealthy and so destructive to marriage and family. God gave us the pleasure of sex. And frankly, He didn't make it easy. It's not insert part A into part B and "FIREWORKS"! The way I see it, framing it in a religious way, He made it so it required communication, mutual respect, exploration, discussion, warmth, etc. Those things are layered and developed. And if those things are present in the marital bed, then marriage is as He hoped it would be - a special bond between two people. But it seems to me they have stunted the growth and development of even that sacred act between two people.

They are all cage babies, man!