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circularlogic

So much focus on the "first kiss", what about the marriage?

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circularlogic

I realize that I'm in way too deep when I wake up at 4:30 in the morning and my first thoughts are "why does jim bob stand in front of the church and make such a big to-do about that first kiss and not about the fact that two young people are making a lifetime commitment to one another. It just seems to me that the focus is skewed and priorities are out of order.

Since I have joined FreeJinger I have really taken notice of just how immature Jim Bob and Michelle really are. Other husband/wife fundie combos seem to have a power/control aspect but these two have more of at 'teenage quality to their relationship) Yes, they have their finances in order - but it seems that they wholly focus on sex, kissing, blah, blah... what about real preparations and foundations for marriage? What about ensuring two people are truly compatible? I have started to really dig into this whole Bill Gothard ministry thing and the patriarchal legalistic elements. It just seems to me like a bunch of boy-men who think about little more than the physical aspects of a relationship and not what really makes it tick. Annoying. Baseless. Thoughts?

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BrownieMomma

I find myself hope hope hoping it seems this way because the show skews it this way.

It's like JB likes the cheap titillation of kissing and sex topics within his family. I truly cringed when he stood with Derick and Jill in their bedroom and made that tasteless comment about them calling him to say they'd conceived in that very room. That made my skin crawl.

It's not supposed to be about the wedding, although plenty of people make that mistake. It's supposed to be about the marriage.

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treemom

I have actually thought about this a bit. I think that JB and Michelle's love language (yes religious book but I think the content is decent) is touch which adds that level to their relationship.

In my marriage we aren't matched like that, touch is my lowest (and because of my childhood something I really struggle to be ok with) and it is my husbands highest. So the way we have to find ways to show our love and accept the others love is a bit more complicated.

I think they probably think everyone is like them, if you simply remain physically intimate everything will be cool!

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circularlogic

Ive read that book. I liked it too. I think you are on to something but they should be mature enough to recognize it for its value to them specifically. I think JB is just perverse in his thinking. Too much emphasis on sex , kiss...its just weird the last thing I want to see is my son macking on his girl.

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ILoveJellybeans

I don't think Jessa and Ben have thought about that yet. The rest of the marriage is irrelevant to them because they are thinking with their genitals. Which is why I cant see them being happy once the fun of sex has worn off and they are stuck with eachother's incompatible personalities.

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Phoenix

I am left wondering how special or intimate a first kiss taken in front of a church full of people can be? The performance anxiety has to be through the roof if the couple actually waits. I feel like there is a panel of judges waiting to score them on the quality of their much vaunted first kiss. Waiting until their wedding day seems to pretty much ignore the fact that first kisses (be they first kiss ever or first kiss with a new partner) tend to be awkward and frequently tentative at first. Sure things can warm up quickly if chemistry is there, but that is only the start of the journey of physical intimacy.

What if even worse, the chemistry isn't there? Now you are stuck married for life to someone that doesn't really light your fire.

As far as fundy couples go Erin and Chad Paine seem fairly well matched from what little we know about them. I can't forget a moment during their departure after the wedding reception when Chad and Erin kiss again with encouragement of the crowd. Erin quickly kissed Chad on the lips and then buried her head in his shoulder like a bashful toddler. They had had no time to get used to each other, to process the feelings and reactions kissing brought up and they had yet at that point to have had five minutes alone since they became man and wife. No wonder Erin had a moment of wanting to hide! No doubt the subsequent year of marriage provided plenty of privacy in which to become comfortable with each other.

I also don't like the way that nearly any physical intimacy prior to marriage is used to bait the couple to the altar followed by the insanely quick baby bump watch. First intimacy is withheld and then it is hyper encouraged for procreation. Often a young fundie bride has a baby by or shortly after her first wedding anniversary. Either way their sexuality is used against them to manipulate and control. That is twisted and unhealthy. "Hey you followed your hormones, now you are a baby factory and if you don't like it, remember to keep sweet because this is the way you make God happy!" How is this dynamic a virtue? Gives me the creeps.

I agree Jim Bob's attitude about sexuality seems stuck around age 14. A man pushing 50 shouldn't remind me of a kid giggling over "you said boobies". The dry humping at the golf course made me so uncomfortable I nearly turned the program off. How utterly classless and frankly disrespectful of Michelle who giggled like a teenage girl! I cannot imagine how embrassed Jessa and Ben must have been.

When I am alone with my boyfriend or at least in the privacy of a residential home I have been known to enjoy it when he grabs for my backside. The check out line at the grocery store is an entirely different matter. How can Jim Bob be so obsessed with his legalistic religious world view and fail to grasp the concept there is a time and a place for intimacy.... and a publc mini-golf course with cameras running is not it!? :music-tool:

Ben and Jessa are definitley thinking with their genitals. They are also enjoying all the fuss being made over them as the next bridal couple in less than two weeks. Well and good, but that is NOT the foundation for a marriage that will last. Weddings can be a lot of fun and a grand party, but they only last a day.

Edited once for riffles and to add to content.

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Emme

My heart goes out to their future children. I imagine that will not be a happy home. (talking about Ben and Jessa, obviously)

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Four is Enough

There is a definite skew in their thinking.. and I agree, Jim Bob seems incredibly immature.. like he's the 14 year old leader of a pack, but has no idea how to lead them.

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Childless

How can you really get to know someone when you've constantly got a brother or sister with their nose in your face? Why can't Jim Bob drop the couple off at a restaurant and leave them alone there for a couple of hours and then return to pick them up? Does he really think they're going have sex in a crowded restaurant? Even more important, why can't he leave them alone together anywhere they want to be? If he was truly a good parent and the children were brought up to really believe in his teachings regarding sex, why can't they be trusted to be alone? His courting children are adults. If they do decide to have sex before marriage, then they'll live with the consequences. That's what adults should be capable of doing, making decisions after weighing the potential consequences and living with whatever decision they make. How are they even remotely ready for marriage if they can't make decisions regarding their own lives? His views of his children are definitely those of a man child who does not understand the significance of being an adult and what it really takes to make a marriage work. He just wants to control his little minions and parade them around as the perfect family to stroke his own ego. Its sad really and the children are the ones that suffer in the end.

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HarleyQuinn

Everything is about sex with the Duggars.

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feministxtian
How can you really get to know someone when you've constantly got a brother or sister with their nose in your face? Why can't Jim Bob drop the couple off at a restaurant and leave them alone there for a couple of hours and then return to pick them up? Does he really think they're going have sex in a crowded restaurant? Even more important, why can't he leave them alone together anywhere they want to be? If he was truly a good parent and the children were brought up to really believe in his teachings regarding sex, why can't they be trusted to be alone? His courting children are adults. If they do decide to have sex before marriage, then they'll live with the consequences. That's what adults should be capable of doing, making decisions after weighing the potential consequences and living with whatever decision they make. How are they even remotely ready for marriage if they can't make decisions regarding their own lives? His views of his children are definitely those of a man child who does not understand the significance of being an adult and what it really takes to make a marriage work. He just wants to control his little minions and parade them around as the perfect family to stroke his own ego. Its sad really and the children are the ones that suffer in the end.

I pretty much said this in a comment on a fundie blog. If you've "raised them right" then why the chaperones? Don't they trust their children enough to think that the kids will adhere to whatever they were taught? The truth is, they don't. But, so much of their culture is focused on sex they think that everyone is just like them. When the STBX and I first got together, and remember, we were in our 30's at the time, we managed to be alone and behave ourselves. I don't see why they can't trust their kids to do the same.

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Cassia

What I can't wrap my head around is the fact that JB&M are actively encouraging their daughters and other young women to marry men that they have never, ever been alone with. Can they not see the danger in this? I mean, a man can by frigging Prince Charming in front of your mommy and daddy and then turn into a monster behind closed doors. Any one can put on an act in front your family, but how they treat you privately in your personal relationship is the only thing that matters. Do they really honestly believe that no man will ever do anything to you or treat you in a way that he won't do in front of your daddy? Give me a break :roll:

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MrsYoungie

Even supposing that the young man is not a monster. How do you know what he really thinks about things when all communication is monitored? You can't even sit on the front porch alone and discuss life, death, and the real feelings you have for your family (!) How do you know what the other person really wants to do in life, when every conversation has to sound like you are running for class president?

My husband and I, back when we were dating, would sit outside for hours just talking. We would stare at the stars and speculate about what it all meant. We weren't doing anything wrong, but we weren't "accountable" for what we talked about.

These girls (and the boys as well) are marrying virtual strangers, or at best, friendly acquaintances. It's only a step above an arranged marriage.

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circularlogic

okay, so i've read about the "dry humping" incident at mini golf a few times on the boards but wasn't sure i had actually seen the clip....so i dug it up on youtube. OMG! he really is dry humping michelle right in front of ben and jessa.

really? i'm without words (well, not really). wtf?

i don't think i've ever even passionately kissed a man (son's daddy or step-daddy) in front of my son. i don't know...maybe i'm wrong here - i assure you i'm far, far from a prude and talked very openly with said teenager about birds, bees, etc when the time was right and he needed to know how not to catch diseases or babies - but strutting my own sexual self in front of the kid - EWWWWWW! not just creepy, but wildly innapropriate.

the duggars are my gateway fundie family so i don't know if this is common for the whole tribe or if jim bob is just a perverted freak. i do remember the kids talking often about how their parents like to 'kiss' alot. i wonder if 'kiss' is a blanket term for all sexual behavior. i'm guessing that they think dad laying mom down in the middle of a game of chutes and ladders is just standard operating procedure. i can't imagine what else goes on in the duggar home. jim bob is one of the most self absorbed, immature, ego-driven people i have ever seen in my life and i can't wait until he is exposed for the nut case that he really is!

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FreeHannie!
I pretty much said this in a comment on a fundie blog. If you've "raised them right" then why the chaperones? Don't they trust their children enough to think that the kids will adhere to whatever they were taught? The truth is, they don't.

This is exactly what I don't get. If they have really set these courtship boundaries for themselves like Boob and Mullet claim they have, they should trust them to adhere to them. To me, the fact that Boob can't even drop them off at a crowded restaurant on a Saturday night and pick them back up suggests to me these kids didn't set the courtship rules, Mommy and Daddy did, and they only get to play if they go along with them. They might not have sex in a restaurant, but they might, shock horror, kiss before marriage.

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FreeHannie!

I can't get over how overwhelming it must be to go from not even being alone with a guy and giving him a front hug to suddenly kissing, having pledged lifelong commitment and going off and having sex.

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It'sFunToRun
I don't think Jessa and Ben have thought about that yet. The rest of the marriage is irrelevant to them because they are thinking with their genitals. Which is why I cant see them being happy once the fun of sex has worn off and they are stuck with eachother's incompatible personalities.

The fun of sex wears off?

Back on topic, I agree with OP that focusing on the "first kiss" and not the marriage is superficial and just... bad. It's like focusing on whether a woman dresses modestly enough, instead of the other many, many aspects of her religious life.

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Toothfairy
Everything is about sex with the Duggars.

Which is really sad. They only have short courtships and engagement to have sex, because they have no self control. Instead of focusing on a promise and a commitment they're so focused on keeping their hearts pure and what's between their legs pure. What if that man that courts a girl is abusive or controlling? What if he doesn't care for her feelings or she doesn't care about him and they're both miserable? Anyone can get pass daddy's questioning. With no time alone to really get to know each other, it's a set up for failure. There are warning signs that people should look out for to help avoid certain disasters. Sex is just one part of marriage where's the rest?

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grandmadugger

Which is really sad. They only have short courtships and engagement to have sex, because they have no self control. Instead of focusing on a promise and a commitment they're so focused on keeping their hearts pure and what's between their legs pure. What if that man that courts a girl is abusive or controlling? What if he doesn't care for her feelings or she doesn't care about him and they're both miserable? Anyone can get pass daddy's questioning. With no time alone to really get to know each other, it's a set up for failure. There are warning signs that people should look out for to help avoid certain disasters. Sex is just one part of marriage where's the rest?

But But But sex is the only thing that brings BBBBBAAAAAABBBBBBIIIIIIEEEEESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the only part that they seem to understand.

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SassyPants
I don't think Jessa and Ben have thought about that yet. The rest of the marriage is irrelevant to them because they are thinking with their genitals. Which is why I can't see them being happy once the fun of sex has worn off and they are stuck with eachother's incompatible personalities.

The Duggar kids have no concept of relationships beyond those with their sibs- they've never been allowed the opportunity to cultivate a relationship or friendship. They have no idea of the give and take or true communication relationships require because they've been forbidden to do such outside the walls of their home or family. It's like bringing a group of toddlers together at mommy and me for socialization.

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ILoveJellybeans

The Duggar kids have no concept of relationships beyond those with their sibs- they've never been allowed the opportunity to cultivate a relationship or friendship. They have no idea of the give and take or true communication relationships require because they've been forbidden to do such outside the walls of their home or family. It's like bringing a group of toddlers together at mommy and me for socialization.

I know, and I don't blame them for that-they don't understand their feelings and what true love is. They are missing so many important things that normal kids get to experience, because they have had such little socialization experience.

Shame on Michelle and Jimbob (and all other fundie parents) for giving their kids such sucky lessons on love.

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Foudeb
"why does jim bob stand in front of the church and make such a big to-do about that first kiss and not about the fact that two young people are making a lifetime commitment to one another.

Because that's what legalism is all about.

Sex before marriage = evil

kissing = leads to sex

therefore, first kiss on wedding day = ultimate good

Everything else: not on the list of legalities, so doesn't count.

Which is a rather different thing from arguing that sex without some serious emotions is less than ideal (not that I necessarily agree, but it's a point many religions make), therefore one should prefer marriage to sleeping around (again, not a personal opinion).

Legalism = crazy cult. Strong opinions about sex-related things = far more mainstream.

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CorruptionInc.
Everything is about sex with the Duggars.

Yes because sex = babies = more $$$$ from TLC...

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MoonFace
I find myself hope hope hoping it seems this way because the show skews it this way.

It's like JB likes the cheap titillation of kissing and sex topics within his family. I truly cringed when he stood with Derick and Jill in their bedroom and made that tasteless comment about them calling him to say they'd conceived in that very room. That made my skin crawl.

It's not supposed to be about the wedding, although plenty of people make that mistake. It's supposed to be about the marriage.

HA! Are they not allowed to have sex any place other than the bedroom?

Wouldn't it make great TV if they invite the whole family over for dinner, get them seated at the table (With JB in the place of honor at the head of the table) and announce - "We're PREGGERS! And Daddy! I got knocked up right THERE!"

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SassyPants
I can't get over how overwhelming it must be to go from not even being alone with a guy and giving him a front hug to suddenly kissing, having pledged lifelong commitment and going off and having sex.

Awful- what a truly awful day for these girls. And what if you ended up with a "dud" like Joy mentioned? Or a man that was pushy about sex? The whole Ben and Jessa union gives me a bad vibe.

Horrible, just horrible.

Then you get to service him and have a bazillion babies, and for most fundies, live in poverty.

I guess that's one way for getting out of having your period.

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