Real Marriage, By Mark Drizz-Cull

[Trynn]

Alright kiddies, gather round! It's Halloween in a few weeks and Momma's gonna read ya'all a HORROR story! This year, the book I have selected for your horrified amusement is: Real Marriage, by Mark and Grace DRISCOLL!

Don't worry, though. I obtained it from the library. No money went to Mark or Grace Drizz-cull in the making of these reviews.

Let's start with chapter one. Because introductions are boring, and basically just tell us all about what we're already gonna read about anyway. (Actually, don't usually think that way, but I skimmed this one and trust me, we're not missing much.)

Chapter one begins with the story of Mark and Grace's relationship, so that they will earn our trust.

Mark Blathers for a bit about that, and then Grace starts the story. The book is told by both of them, but so far is well marked when the viewpoint switches.

Grace starts off by talking about how the "seeds for the potential destruction of my marriage" were planted as a child. This is because she was PK, Pastor's kid, and she felt this enormous pressure to be perfect. she grew up in a Christian home, but still somehow missed the memo on confession and repentance of sins. She felt like a no good dirty rotten sinner when she sinned, but, even as a PK, somehow missed the memo on God's mercy and forgiveness.

When she would get in arguments with her sister, she would apologize because she wanted to get out of her time out, not because she was actually sorry. She never actually felt bad for what she'd done. Now when she sins she feels bad because she hurt people, and this empathy is prompted by the Holy Spirit, without whom she'd sound like someone who resembled a sociopath.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you have to be prompted by an invisible sky-daddy into feeling sorry for doing something wrong, you have a problem, and the answer is therapy, not god.

Grace had low self esteem growing up because she didn't realize her identity needed to be founded on God creating her in his Image and Jesus gifting her with righteousness. Because any other way of finding your identity is bad, mmkay?

Back to Mark, and this paragraph is so outrageous I don't know if he's embellishing or outright lying. He diens't give the name of the town in which he grew up, describing it merely as:

a very rough neighborhood near the airport in Seattle before it was incorporated as a city. Without a local police force, it resembled the wild west... multiple strip clubs, seedy massage parlors, and... prostitutes brazen enough to knock on my car window seeking "business.

In other words: The "wrong" side of the tracks. And here is the part I find.... ?

These young women (the aforementioned prostitutes) attended my high school, and serial killers murdered some of them. Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer picked up many of their victims in my neighborhood, even dumping at least two of their bodies at my little league field.

It's not enough for Mark to have grown up in a bad neighborhood, there must also be serial killers involved. How does he know they were women prostitutes anyway? Most of the prostitutes in my grandma's town are actually male, even if dressed otherwise.

He goes on to describe all the men on his father's side as criminals, uneducated, mental patients, and abusers. He's pretty sure some of them have been on the TV show Cops.

This might all be true, but it's sounding wilder and wilder by the minute.

Mark was determined to get out of all of this, to get an education and live across the river on the right side of the tracks. To this day (The day of this writing, what was it, 2005?) He has never smoked, drank, or did drugs. Congratulations, what does he want, a medal, or a chest to pin it on?

He was the "good guy" in high school, He graduated most likely to succeed, man of the year, editor of the school newspaper... bla bla I think I'll give Mark a chest to pin it on. No, I'll give him a medal, so I can stab him with it.

Oh, and his parents were Catholic. We all know what THAT means.

he met Grace when he was 17. Despite being a PK, Grace was into drugs and partying. He describes her as naive, and then goes on for a whole paragraph about how innocent is different from naive; the former is healthy, the latter is dangerous. I would agree, but this is a 17 year old we're talking about here, and I would be surprised to find most 17 year olds actually being innocent. whatever.

Mark announces that neither he nor Grace was a virgin when they met, and that they had sex together before marriage. Sadly, this is not as detailed as they will get about their sex lives.

Mark declined a trip to Mexico because the company sending him said he would receive VIP treatment, which involved a lot of alcohol and women. he declined the offer to stay faithful to Grace. Yo dude, just because those things are there doesn't mean you have to make use of them. That's probably not why your company representative sent you to Mexico anyway.

Mark joined a fraternity in college, and the fraternity did nothing but drink, party, and have lots of sex. His pledge class ended up getting arrested. He doesn't say what for, and it sounds like they all got arrested at once but that sounds hard to believe.

Mark said he got out just in time to avoid spending his nights and weekends in jail, prayze duh lawd.

God saved Mark while he was sitting in his dorm, reading a bible Grace had given him. He goes on to say that Grace should have broken up with him when she found out he wasn't a Christian, but instead gave him a bible. Mark read Romans 1:6 "You are also among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ."

Mark trotted off to find himself a church. He didn't know what to look for, and, rightfully so in my opinion, was afraid of getting caught up in a cult.

by the grace of God, I ended up in a solid bible teaching church, where I was taught about Jesus, marriage, sex, and family.

Alright kids, let's play a game! It's called, "Which word does not belong?"

A) Jesus

B) Marriage

C) Sex

D) Family

Seriously? Jesus might be first on the list, but you can tell he's only mentioned as an after thought. Because the REAL spirituality of the church is measured in their teachings on the last 3. Most people I know of, when the first came to church, talked about how they learned about Jesus and his love, Jesus and his life, death, and resurrection, Jesus taking the punishment for our sins.... other basic gospel stuff, bla bla. No, Mark was excited to find this church because Marriage (which involves sex) sex, and family (which is created by SEX!) Oh and Jesus. Jesus does not have to do with sex, except in kinky porn novels.

Meanwhile, Grace got converted too. No, we don't get to hear about it. She gave up drinking and partying, which, I don't see why alcohol was so important to give up, as in moderation it isn't a bad thing, and I didn't THINK Mark and Grace were of the sort that think alcohol is ob da debbil and should never be consumed by a living soul.

Grace transferred to Mark's college (Heaven forbid it be the other way around, I guess) and they began going to church together. and it was then that Mark began learning about sex and marriage from the bible.

the previous church I attended was Catholic, with a priest who seemed to be a gay alcoholic. He was the last person on earth I wanted to be like. To a young man, a life of poverty, celibacy, living at the church, and wearing a dress was more frightful than going to hell, so I stopped going to church.

That, folks, is Mark's definition of the catholic priest. I could understand an aversion to being an alcoholic, but oh my gosh, I gotta go find some pearls to clutch, because heaven help Mark if he turns out GAY because apparently being gay is a moral issue in the same category as being an alcoholic.

By contrast, the pastor at this new church had been in the military, earned a few degrees, was smart, humble, and bow hunted. He had sex with his wife. I don't know how Mark knew that. I mean, I generally ASSUME pastors who have wives are sexually active, but it's not like it's anything they or their wives talk to me about. Not that I've ever been close to any pastors (SDA ones all scare me) but I've gotten close to a few of their wives, enough to hear some TMI stuff. However, none of that TMI stuff has been at all about their sex lives. That was a closed door, and I never sought to open it. I don't know if Mark here is just assuming the pastor has sex with his wife, or if he knows for sure. Either way, it's a very odd thing to bring up when talking about how good a person is.

Mark describes the men at this church as godly and masculine. Because masculinity is next to godliness, clearly. He and Grace met a family with 13 children, 11 girls and 2 boys. I wondered briefly if they were the Duggars, but then realized the boy/girl ratio was off.

Mark heard a bible study given by a pastor who taught from the bible about "the f-word." No, of course not. The F-word means FORNICATING, silly. What were you thinking?

Anyway, Mark finally learned about how fornicating is wrong even if you're in a committed relationship, so he and grace stopped, got engaged, and got married before their senior years of college.

And now, the REAL what the fuckery begins. *plays ominous music* :violin: There, now the mood is set. Don't read this in the dark, children, or you may see monsters in the shadows.

Anyway, after marrying Grace, things were different. Before marriage, Grace had been free and fun. After marriage she was "a frigid and fearful wife." She didn't undress in front of him and insisted marital relations, if performed at all, were to be done in the dark. She also experienced physical discomfort due to tension.

I will admit that it does seem like there is a problem here, though I've no idea what it could be. Perhaps Grace should speak to a trained therapist about it, and in the mean time see a gynecologist to make sure it IS tension making things painful downstairs and not something more serious.

All of this made Mark bitter against God and his wife. He felt they had both tried to trap him. he was the good guy, and since he'd only slept with a few other people, he felt God owed him because he had been holy enough.

I felt God had conned me by telling me to marry Grace, and allowed Grace to rule over me since she was controlling our sex life. I loved grace, but in the bedroom I did not enjoy her and wondered how many years I could white knuckle fidelity. Grace was so full of shame and hurt from previous relationships that she didn't trust that i loved her, no matter how many times I said it. she became afraid of me and felt used as i tried to explain how she frustrated me sexually, which added to her feeling less valuable. we both needed help but didn't know where to turn.

Couple of things here:

1. Jee, no wonder Grace felt unloved. Love is an action, not a word. You can tell a person " I love you" over and over again, but if you constantly treat them like a piece of trash "Grace was ruling over me" "Grace was controlling our sex life," etc. No one is going to believe you.

2. Grace was ruling over Mark by controlling their.... OH GOOD GOD! This just smacks of "women must be available for sex at all times and never say no." After all, would it still be a bad thing if MARK was the one controlling their sex life?

They were poor for a few years after graduation... bla bla bla, I don't care. They felt called to start a church in Seattle. For the first 2 years they couldn't afford to pay Mark.

Grace talking now. She realizes she never followed the biblical command to leave her family and cleave to Mark as her new family. She called her mom daily and complained whenever she and Mark were fighting.

It is odd for a married woman to call her mom daily, I think. I'm moved out, and I call my mom once a week, maybe twice if something big is going on. And there can be value in being able to talk about issues with one's husband with a woman who is older and wiser than you and been there and done that and can help out and give a little advice.

However, if she was complaining about Mark every single day to her mom... ehhhh. I know a person who got married and then spent dates with her new husband texting her mother. Even though they could afford to do otherwise, this girl insisted they move in with her mother. And then her mother posted on facebook, all joy and smiles, that she was waking up her daughter to go to school because it was her daughter's first day as teacher.

Seriously? After I hit my teens, my mom only woke me up if she thought my alarm clock had failed me. That only happened on average of twice a school year.

So it can be very devastating to a marriage to still be super dependent on your mom, and that sounds like waht is going on here.

Grace's parents also had the keys to the house, and would stop by any time, unnannounced. This lack of privacy frustrated introverted Mark. Well yeah, that would frustrate me too. I mean, if my mom lived nearby she would have the keys to my house, but that would be with the understanding that they were only to be used in emergencies. Like when I was sick with flu and couldn't take 5 steps without feeling like I was going to faint. That does not sound healthy.

I called them "My family" which made Mark feel as if he and I weren't family. I had to learn to... refer to Mark as "my family" and others as our "extended family."

Is... is this a thing in real life? do people actually do this? As an aromantic asexual I highly doubt I will ever marry (it just doesn't appeal to me) but if I did, I could NEVER refer to my dad, mom, and brother, as "extended family." Heck, I don't even refer to my own GRANDMA that way. To me she is "my family." My cousins are "my family," my really grouchy step grandma, though not biologically, is "my family." The only people I personally refer to as extended family are relatives I never see, and even then, I tend to see them as "family I haven't met yet."

I would NEVER want to permanently attach myself to someone who was so insecure that I couldn't even refer to my own mother and father and grandma and cousin as "my family." Oh good god.

I'm taking a small vodka break. I've got about another 8 pages to go in this chapter, and it's my goal to get it done tonight. We'll see, though, as I'm in minor amounts of pain, and not just from reading this horror story.

[Trynn]

Now I've got more vodka, I'm ready, I think. Mark is still talking. He said they did ministry in their home every night a week. Mark is an introvert, who prefers home to be a refuge where he can have his alone time.

For once I actually agree and sympathize with Mark. I would feel the exact same way. It sounds like something he needs to discuss with his wife so they can set appropriate boundaries between home and ministry. All during the ministry their sex life was suffering, even as they taught premarital counseling for young couples.

Then Grace got pregnant. She suffered a lot of stress from her job, so she came home from work and they lived on odd jobs and support. which probably means free stuff from people trying to support to their ministry.

In this season we shifted into ministry and family mode, neglecting our intimacy and failing to work through our issues. This became apparent to me when my pregnant wife came home from a hair appointment with her previously long hair (that I loved) chopped off and replaced with a short, mommish haircut. She asked what I thought, and could tell from the look on my face. She had put a mom's need for convenience over being a wife. She wept.

It's one thing not to like your wife's new haircut. That is allowed. Even with friends, I've been known to say something like, "well, I liked it the other way better, but having short hair is more convenient. And I don't think it makes you look ugly. I just liked it better before." Because I'm not the type to tell them I like it when I don't. Though I do try to remain tactful.

It's another thing to act like your wife has totally betrayed her wifely duties by cutting it. I just...

Oh my god, I thought THAT was bad. We're coming up to the paragraph I believe has been discussed here before, but I'll quote it anyway because someone might not have read it.

One night, I had a dream in which I saw some things that shook me to my core. I saw in painful detail Grace sinning sexually during a senior trip she took after high school when we had just started dating. It was so clear it was like watching a film--something I cannot really explain but the kind of revelations I sometimes receive. I awoke, threw up, and spent the rest of the night sitting on our couch, praying, hoping it was untrue and waiting for her to wake up so I could ask her.

I asked her if it was true. She confessed it was. Grace started weeping and apologizing, but I honestly don't remember the details, as I was shocked. Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.

The first time I read this, I kind of skipped over the whole "I had a vision part." Now it's leaping out at me. Before, I was too busy with the last sentence, "If I had known about this sin, I would not have married her."

Ow. Oh ouch. And I don't mean my knee, which incidentally is why I'm here instead of touring a 3 story haunted house.

It happened in HIGH SCHOOL. When they had JUST STARTED dating. Her cheating on him in high school would have stopped him from marrying her during their senior year of college. Don't get me wrong, I think Grace should've been honest with him from the start. But I still think he's being a big baby about it. I mean, they were children in high school for buddha's sake, he's going to hold a grudge over... I was enraged when I first read that.

It showed he didn't see Grace as a person, with her own personality. He didn't say something like, "you know what, that was a long time ago. You are the love of my life. I am a little hurt, but you know what? I was so in love with you I'd have married you anyway."

It felt like Mark saw Grace as tarnished by her cheating, and therefore not worth having as a wife.

Grace picks up the narrative, talking about how Mark had "righteous anger" about the subject and felt totally betrayed. Mark didn't know what to do, Mark felt, bla bla bla shouldn't MARK be the one narrating how HE felt?

Grace felt guilty. They both felt stuck in the marriage. Grace felt awful knowing Mark wished he hadn't married her.

Grace admits they should have gone for counsel, but they didn't. Grace thought that exposing the deepest sin would help heal her and Mark and bring them closer together, but it didn't happen for another 7 years. They were trapped in the marriage because divorce is ob da debbil because BYE-BULL.

Grace goes on to say some people will use that story against her and Mark, but they wanted to share it anyway so they could help others.

Mark talking: he was mad that Grace chose not to reveal that sin in their premarital counseling sessions....

you know, I feel like if God was going to reveal that to Mark, it should have been either before they got married, or saved it for such a time as they could fully heal and deal with it. It just seems odd for God to give Mark the revelation even though he knew they'd have to wait 7 years to heal properly, and shouldn't God have waited fro Grace to tell Mark, anyway? Wouldn't it have been a lot better for Grace to wait a little longer, but open up to Mark herself, than to have sky-daddy tattle on her?

This story does not paint God in a good light. Juuuuuust sayin'.

Mark felt like a total fool after he discovered Grace's sin, and ended up demonizing Grace and doubting God.

Grace said she knew she should have told Mark, but believed that telling him would only hurt him more, and it was just a one time mistake anyway.

Grace began to fear that God was too good for her, that she didn't deserve such a good husband. She grew emotionally distant because she was afraid he was going to leave her.

I think one of my house mates is watching a horror movie, because the ominous music just left my head and entered reality. OH wait, that's not ominous music, it's American Idol and they really do sound that badly. Whoops. Back to Drizz-Cull.

Mark made a decision not to turn to porn, adultery, or masturbation. Which is sad because I think he could really use a good wank. Instead, Mark poured all his energy into his ministry and children. No I don't mean his sexual energy.

lots of long paragraphs about trust issues...

They were both very bitter... Grace wishes she'd listened to God's voice leading her to repentance... right, because Mark's behavior is totally appropriate either...

Mark preached on song of sons... snicker snicker. Lots of people went to Mark for counseling. Lots of sexual abuse victims...

God kept Mark and Grace together. They had mediocre sex which resulted in 5 children and one miscarriage. They both say they still loved each other, and maybe that's true but it doesn't seem like it.

Then God spoke to Mark and told him that He was Grace's father and had chosen Mark for the important mission of rescuing, protecting, and loving His daughter. This made more sense to Mark, because Mark had a newborn daughter, Ashely, and he realized that God loved Grace like Mark loved Ashley.

And finally after about 7 years or so, Mark found out (hopefully not via more tattling by sky-daddy) that Grace's problem was that she was a victim of sexual assault and had never told anyone. Mark talked about how much all of this hurt him as they worked through it. To his credit, he realized he had been overbearing and boorish.

Details about Mark's ministry at the time... they did a bunch of new things with the church and lost around a thousand people due to changes and criticism (no, he doesn't spell out what the issues were, exactly.) They laid off a lot of people, many of whom Mark says were great people, and decided everything in the church would change or they would walk.

It kind of sounds like half the problem was Mark putting in too many hours, but then why would you lay off people like that? This don't make no sense!

Finally, he and Grace got some professional help. They now have a healthy sex life and are very close to each other. They never cheated on each other during their married years.

Parts of this book are things Mark has preached about in... he proceeds to list different countries.... *stabs Mark with medal*

Mark and Grace pray that the contents in the book lead to the healing of your soul and of your marriage if you suffer from bitterness, past sexual sin, porn, fornication, sexual abuse... etc.

Tune in next time to read the next chapter: Friends with Benefits!

[Georgiana]

Back to Mark, and this paragraph is so outrageous I don't know if he's embellishing or outright lying. He diens't give the name of the town in which he grew up, describing it merely as:

In other words: The "wrong" side of the tracks. And here is the part I find.... ?

It's not enough for Mark to have grown up in a bad neighborhood, there must also be serial killers involved. How does he know they were women prostitutes anyway? Most of the prostitutes in my grandma's town are actually male, even if dressed otherwise.

I'm from Seattle, and the place Mark is talking about is SeaTac. It was a pretty rough place, even when I was younger (which would have been after Mark had already left), and it's still not a great area. Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway were active in approximately that area at approximately the same time Driscoll would have been there, but it is interesting that Mark strings them together, as Bundy was active in WA in the 70's, whereas Ridgeway was the 80's/90's.

Anyways, it's typical MD: truthful and vague enough that it can be slightly verified and can't be dis proven, but almost certainly not an accurate representation of the truth.

[Trynn]

I'm from Seattle, and the place Mark is talking about is SeaTac. It was a pretty rough place, even when I was younger (which would have been after Mark had already left), and it's still not a great area. Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway were active in approximately that area at approximately the same time Driscoll would have been there, but it is interesting that Mark strings them together, as Bundy was active in WA in the 70's, whereas Ridgeway was the 80's/90's.

Anyways, it's typical MD: truthful and vague enough that it can be slightly verified and can't be dis proven, but almost certainly not an accurate representation of the truth.

Georgianna, thank you very much for educating me. I didn't know for sure whether Mark was embellishing or not, and I still don't, but at least I know it's within the realm of possibility... thank you :)

[ViolaSebastian]

My brother was in a fraternity...and I just refuse to believe that Mark was in one and didn't ever take a drink. Nope, don't think he's being truthful. :snooty:

[Trynn]

Viola, would you know perhaps... If all fraternities are reall as bad as mark makes hem out to be? I was under the impression that, while things happen, the deunken debauchery of fraternities was a myth

[ViolaSebastian]

I imagine that there are some that are as bad as popular culture (Animal House comes to mind) portrays, and while the vast, vast majority are not the hotbed of sin and inequity that Driscoll is portraying, there's still a lot of (what I consider normal) late-teens and early twenties type behavior that goes on. So while there's drinking, and I have never been in a frat where it wasn't common to drink on Thirsty Thursday/Friday/Saturday and have a sorority or two over for a party, they're still students somewhat devoted to their studies and it's not quite as crazy as the media claims.

I just don't think he could have gotten out of that environment without succumbing to curiosity or peer pressure in terms of drinking.

[Georgiana]

Georgianna, thank you very much for educating me. I didn't know for sure whether Mark was embellishing or not, and I still don't, but at least I know it's within the realm of possibility... thank you :)

I'm fairly sure he's embellishing A LOT, however, it's impossible to prove it's an outright lie. That's the worst part of MD: he stays just truthful enough to where it's hard to catch him.

However, Seattle is no LA or New York. Even our worst areas are nothing compared to bigger cities like those, especially back then. Of course there was and is some degree of urban crime especially around the airport, which is where this is, but Bundy and Ridgeway were huge deals because violent crime is fairly uncommon. Less so now, but even still, he is definitely embellishing.

[debrand]

Also, Ted Bundy killed women who weren't prostitutes(not that being a prostitute means that someone should deserve to die) so I am not certain why Mark lumps all the victims together as sex workers.

Mark Driscoll is 44. That makes him four years younger than me. Bundy was arrested in 76 when I was ten and Driscoll was six. He makes it sound like some of the women he attended school with were Bundy's victims but that is impossible.

A couple of years back, I somehow downloaded a free version of this book but gave up reading it after a couple of chapters. I'd read criticisms of the book from Christian sites that concentrated on Driscoll's views on anal sex and the fact that he shamed his wife for cutting her hair. What those sites glossed over was how mentally abusive and controlling that Driscoll is.

Although his wife should not have been contacting her mother daily, the entire extended family thing sounded like he wants to be the center of her world and have her cut ties with people who love her. Grace comes off as a needy, fragile person who can be bullied into obeying a narcissistic jerk.

[debrand]

Imagine the nightmare of living with a controlling person who you believe(like Grace does) has supernatural abilities to tell what you are thinking and have done.

[RachelB]

Viola, would you know perhaps... If all fraternities are reall as bad as mark makes hem out to be? I was under the impression that, while things happen, the deunken debauchery of fraternities was a myth

I tried to join a fraternity in college, for a variety of reasons.

I didn't initially have any interest in the Greek system. The sororities weren't a good fit for me. But the first people I really hit it off with, even before college orientation started, were all in a particular fraternity. (It seemed to collect nerds, musicians, and distance runners, i.e., my people.)

It turned out I missed my brother, and my two closest male friends from high school, much more than I anticipated. WAAAY more than my then-boyfriend. Being around a group of guys who gave me the same mix of affection and piss-taking that they would have given a younger sister was awesome.

Preparing the house for parties was at least as much fun as being at them. I have fond memories of helping build a wooden maze / tunnel that took party-goers out one window, then totally disoriented them before ending in the basement.

The parties themselves had alcohol, but no one pressured me to drink. The most serious distance runners didn't drink during the track or cross-country seasons, which took up most of the school year, so I had my ginger ale in good company.

There were, mind you, frats on my campus I wouldn't have wanted to visit, let alone join. But these guys, I would have been comfortable getting drunk around, if I'd had any interest in getting drunk.

[browncoatslytherin]

it's taken me several tries just to get through the summaries. holy hell, this guy needs some serious help. he sounds controlling, narcissistic, and i can tell has some problems with lying, because even just embellishing the truth is still a lie.

newsflash, mark: embellishing the truth still isn't okay, even if the message is good. just ask james frey.

[RachelB]

Every time I see the sentence "Mark is still talking," I think, "For the love of all that is holy and pure, WHY? Why is he still talking? Hasn't he said enough?"

[infooverload]

I grew up in Auburn close to Seatac in the 80's and part of the 90's. Mark is making the place sound waaay more dangerous then it really was. For example my mom had no problem dropping me off at the Sea-Tac mall with my friend to go catch a movie at the cineplex and then call her on the pay phone when we were done. Our family and our friends were mostly run of the mill lower middle class or middle class. The neighborhood was just mostly filled with blue colar types. Seatac while not great isn't anyworse than any other suburb near a major city. As a side note the sponsoring church based in Aurburn for the Schrader's mission looks very similar to a church which was up the road from my childhood home.

[Trynn]

Chapter 2 has arrived. This one is not TOO bad, though it has its moments.

Real marriage chapter 2

This chapter starts out with Martin Luther King. It's actualy a pretty interesting history lesson. Apparently he helped smuggle out 12 nuns becaues they all wanted to get married. All but one of them got Married, and Katherine said “either you find me a husband or you marry me yourself.â€

So the former munk and the former nun got married. This was a huge scandal in the day because it was rumored that the anti christ would result form such a union.

Luther grew to love his wife, Katherine, and Mark driscoll talks about how they were best friends. Apparenty

Driscoll (I'm guessing it's Mark talking here) goes on to talk about how friendship is the biggest part of marriage.

This, incidentaly, is the chapter that sucked my friend Jacob (not his real name) in. He was intruged by the idea of being best friends with your spouse, and hadn't run across a book yet that talked about it. Unforuantely it got him sucked into other stuff, like wifely submission.

Jacob and I talked about sex waaaaaaay more than is seen as normal on Planet Adventist (I don't know why; I'm an asexual, and he is very straight, and normally it's frowned upon to discuss these things in mixed gendered groups.) and he was discussing how marriage should be about frienship first and foremost and that was my first exposure to this book. Jacob owned a copy of Real Marriage, and let me borrow it. Unfortuantely, I was going through my questioning fase, so I couldn't make it past the first few chapters without giving up and telling Jacob, “I just can't handle it all right now.â€

So that is how I know which parts of this chapter to skim and which to pick up in detail.

Mark and Grace, in preparing this book, read all or part of 187 books on the subject, and not one of them had a chapter on how spouses are supposed to be your best friends.

Mark says that happy marriages are based on a couple's friendship. Friendship means a desire and respect for each other's company. He then announces that he and Grace are friends, which seems like a very toxic friendship to me but whatever.

Grace talks about how they were friends when dating, and it strained the friendship that she lied to Mark about the one and only time she ever cheated on him IN HIGH SCHOOL.

Grace says Mark felt he was alone because of the nature of his ministry. Grace would try to be tehre for him but Mark pushed her away and then got upset about it.

And then one day God convinced Mark to let Grace in, and they became friends again. Yay.

Friendship is an integral part of Christian marriage and a safeguard against emotional adultery.

Most marriage books/seminars/sermons only examine the bible verses on marriage, not the bible verses on friendship.

Song of Songs 5:16 This is my beloved, this is my friend.

The word friend needs to be used carefully. Co workers, classmates, and neighbors we hardly know are friends. People we meet on social media sites are not. We are to be friendly toward all people but friends to a few.

Dear god in heaven, I have no friends, then. I agree the word friend should be used more carefully, but people on social media sites can be closer than any IRL people we know, depending.

More talk about how marriage needs to resemble a friendship. Friends give without expecting to take, etc.

Mark and Grace Drizz-Cull like to spell friendship FRIENDS

F—fruitful

bangs inner 12 year old with a hammer

--Marriage exists to serve God and his kingdom

--Marriage and friendship exist to glorify god

--only when marriage exists for God's glory are we able to love and be loves. So all you athiests out there, your marriages all suck, ok?

--God created marriage to be fruitful. This is why satan did not even show up until adam and eve were married.

Gee, I thought Satan didn't show up till then because that was the first time god left them alone. Because if he'd shown up while god was still there creating Adam and Eve.... it would not have gone well for Satan.

--Satan hates the fruitfullness (snicker snicker) that can come from a couple serving God together in marriage.

R=Reciprocal

--It ony takes one spouse to be friendly, it takes both spouses to be friends.

--when people talk about “falling in love†it is to avoid taking the responsibiity. Faling is an accident, and so “falling in love†is used to take some of the responsibiilty off of themselves.

--the bible tells us to guard our hearts and not follow them, because our hearts are sinful

--We don't love with our hearts, we love through our hearts. God pours love into our hearts, and then we give it out to our spouse. So, all you non Christian married people, you don't really love each other. (Mark didn't say that last sentence, I added it.)

--Mark then makes a list of things you can do for your spouse. I don't actually have any disagreement with this, except for

“my husband will not leave the house without kissing me goodbye. Sometimes I try to avoid it, but he will stand in front of my car and climb in to make sure...â€

That one strikes me as kinda creepy. The others not so much. The other suggestions involve things like leaving your spouse notes where they will see them like on their car keys or on their steering wheel, buyhing them a Dr. Pepper at the end of the week when you know they are stressed, washing up the dishes after your wife cooks a dinner, etc.

I=intimate

Apparently there are 3 kinds of marriage: back to back, shoulder to shoulder, and face to face.

Back to back marriage--

Me: That's where you got each other's backs, right? Like, in a fight you put your backs to each other and that way you can always cover your partner and shoot the enemy?

Drizz-cull, however, thinks back to back marriage is when both spouses have turned their back on one another.

Shoulder to shoulder is when the couple works together on projects like keeping the home, raising the kids, etc.

face to face marriage is when they become friends and face each other, in addition to shoulder to shoulder work.

--women tend to have more friends, and these friendships tend to be deeper. This is because men typically have friends who have interest in shared activities. Jee, what does he think women friendships are made of, kittens and rainbows and cupcakes?

Men generally know very little about their friends, because their conversations tend to be about the task at hand (ie baseball) and not about the feelings they both have.

--this is why women do things men don't do, like going out for coffee just to talk, or having intimate conversations, etc.

Mark's advice to wives (at least, Grace hasn't said she's the one talking, so I'm assuming it's Mark) is to share an activity with your husband. Watch sports with him (starts singing sports go sports! I promise I really totally care who wins! Go team yeah!). If your man is working on a project, stay nearby to help out, or at the very least keep him company.

For a wife to be a friend to her husband requires a lot of shoulder to shoulder work, apparently. I'm still not sure what that means.

Husbands, to learn to be a good friend to your wife, learn to listen to her intimate conversations. Open up and tell your wife how you are feeling and ask how she's doing.Keep your advice to a minimum and learn to listen and empathize.

Resist the male urge to find the problem and try to fix it. No wife wants to be a person to be fixed rather than a person to be intimate with.

Silly me, I had no idea these things were supposed to be gendered, I just thought that both of these were what friends DO regardless of whether or not they identify as male/female.

Mark says that he asked Grace to be his functional pastor. This was surprsing, not just because Mark is such a manly man who needs nobody, (er, excuse me, he, “projects a sense of complete self sufficiencyâ€) but because neither of them believe pastors are allowed to be women, according to the bible.

Grace is Mark's intimate friend who pastors his heart. Isn't that special.

E=Enjoyable.

Life sucks sometimes, and we need to be able to have people who make it enjoyable. Ecclesiastes 9:7-9 is quoted, which says to enjoy your days with your wife.

Life is short, like a breath on a cold morning yous ee an instant before it disappears.

God gives us spouses as enjoyable friends... he expects us to have fun.

Grace talks about weekly date night, which I actually think is a good idea.

Oooooh here's an interesting quote. Last I checked Mark and Grace Drizz-cull did not claim to be seventh day adventists, and I'm sure SDAs don't want to claim him, so this next part is interesting.

Family night every saturday is a similar rituatl (sabbath time with the family doing various low key things.)

Sounds kinda like what most SDA families I know do on Saturday night. Actually, the preferred saturday night activity of most SDAs I know is watching a movie. Because you couldn't watch any non Christian movies all during the sabbath, so most families I know of picked a secular movie and watched it the minute the sun slipped below the horizon. My brother and I used to count down the minutes till our little sundown calendar said it was time, then find the fastest clock in the house –ahem. Off topic, sorry.

I've just never really heard a Non SDA refer to any time on saturday as “sabbath†before, so, that's interesting to me.

Every Sunday morning Mark leaves the house at 7am and doesn't get home till 10pm because he is preaching all day.

Wow... what does he preach ABOUT for that long? Is it like, the same sermon 5 times over? I know some churches have an early morning service and an afternoon service, but no church I've ever been to has services as late as 10pm. I do know of one church in my town (there's probably more, as it's a big college town) that has 3 sunday services, but the latest one gets out at LEAST by like, 8pm at the ABSOLUTE latest. And at least one of the services is directed to college graduates, so I know it's not the same sermon 3 times.

Anyway, Grace gets up early to make Mark breakfast. Poor Grace. I am so not a morning person and at that point my husband could make his own damn breakfast.

That is part of how they enjoy each other's company.

N= needed

This section starts with a summary of God creating humans... 1st and 2nd chapter of genesis, not going to quote.

God made man. Then God took a rib from the man's side and made a woman. Drizz-cull (and he's not the only one I've heard preaching this) says it is

because she belongs at his side as an equal and not in front of him as feminism would teach or behind him as chauvinism would teach.

Clearly, Drizz-cull does not understand what feminism means, or he would know that feminism is the equality of women.

Drizz-cull also says that the whole “woman came from a man's rib†is probably why Grace likes to snuggle up to Mark's side and feels at home there. Gag me with a spoon.

Mark says we all need human friendships in addition to friendships with God. Thank you! Yes, ugh! I can not TELL you how may times as a child I would tell an adult I ahd no friends and how much it bothered me, only to be told the only friend I needed was God. Even before I started questioning Christianity I knew that was bull and shit. I was also told this by my best friend of 10 years a lot... but she's no longer speaking to me so fuck her anyway.

God's answer to our need for human companionship is first a spouse, then other godly friends of our same gender.

Seriously?

1. I'm an aromantic asexual. If there is a god, I believe he created me this way AND I LIKE IT. If there is a god, it is the only thing I would be grateful to him for. I have no need for a spouse, but I still have a need for deep friendship. (The term “squish†is appropriate.)

2. Really? We can only have godly friends of our same gender? Because clearly it is not possible to be close friends with someone of the opposite gender without hopping in the sack together.

I've had at least 2 close guy friends. One ditched me because of mental issues, but he said he would've stopped speaking to me when he got married anyway because THOU SHALT NOT have opposite gender friends when married. The second close guy friend I have has said the same thing, he doesn't believe in having opposite gender friends when married, but even he thinks it's bullshit that some people think he and I can't be close without developing a sexual and or romantic attraction. Because first off, I'm asexual and 2, I'm not his type.

So FUCK YOU Mark Driscoll for perpetuating the lies that make half my friends leave me.

Mark needed to get rid of the idea that a true man stands alone against the world. Right, because, that totally came from.... ? I don't know any men who think that way.

God said that it is not good for man to be alone. For this reason, someone who says to their spouse “I don't need you†is calling God a liar.

Honestly, if I was going to get married, I wouldn't WANT the man to need me. I'd want to be with a man who is with me because he WANTS me, not because he NEEDS me. But then, I'm an aromantic asexual so what do I know. Thoughts?

Oh, and also, I seriously do NOT need a spouse, so FUCK YOU Mark Drizzle!

D=Devoted

A devoted friend is dependable... must agree with ecclesiastes 3:4 there is a time to weep and a time to laugh.

Being a devoted friend requires wisdom form the Holy Spirit... jee, nice to know my secular friends can never be dependable. Oh my God, is this how my current only Christian friend C sees me?

Mark talks a bit about devoted verses fake friends. Fake friends leave you when your life gets tough. Funnily enough, for me personally, those people have all been (seventh day adventist) Christians. The only devoted friends I've had are secular. Go figure. Yet Mark says that in order to be a devoted friend you must be a christian...

S= Sanctifying

Author Gary Thomas asked the vital question “what if God designed marriage to make us holy more than to make us happy?â€

I've heard this a LOT in marriage seminars/books that I somehow ended up having to sit/read through even though I have the exact same level of interest in marriage I did when I was 12, that level being: zero.

Apparently we don't learn how selfish and sinful we are until we live with someone in marriage. Huh. I'd think you could learn the same things about yourself living outside of marriage together. For example, going off to college and having a room mate, or even just living with a boyfriend. Apparently neither of those are options to Marky Boy.

Husbands and wives need to accept that they are married to imperfect people and to accept each other as they are while still helping them to grow.

True friends are revealed when someone has fallen into sin. They rush to help said friend. Our spouses need this more frequently than any other friend.

A married couple msut speak the truth in love so that they both may grow to be more like Jesus...

proverbs 27:6 faithful are the wounds of a friend, but kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

A spouse who never disagrees with you is not a true friend.

This chapter still does not explain how we are supposed to sanctify our spouses but whatever.

Closing note: marriage can be overhwelming, but Mark and Grace have found that the best way to work at it is to become friends, and that over time,the rest will sort itself out.

[jerkit]

The reason his "sabbath" is Saturday is because he works all day Sunday. His (former) congregation did not consider Saturday their sabbath, just him because of the nature of his job.

[bea]

Wait - wasn't he out there partyin' in his fraternity, having THE SEX with women while....in a relationship with Grace? That's what it seems like, from the timeline presented.

But GRACE is the bad guy for having a one-nighter with another guy when she and Mark had just started dating and presumably weren't exclusive?

Goodness, I'm confused.

[jerkit]

Wait - wasn't he out there partyin' in his fraternity, having THE SEX with women while....in a relationship with Grace? That's what it seems like, from the timeline presented.

But GRACE is the bad guy for having a one-nighter with another guy when she and Mark had just started dating and presumably weren't exclusive?

Goodness, I'm confused.

I have absolutely no proof of this and it's entirely speculation.

I think Grace's "sin" was a sexual encounter with a woman.

Grace was not a virgin when she started dating Mark. He was fully aware she had sex with other men. And he still wanted to be with her and marry her. It wasn't until he had the vision of her "sexually sinning" that he said he wouldn't have married her if he knew. It couldn't have been just sleeping with another guy. It had to be something that mark would view as more serious.

[Trynn]

Mark referred to the sin more of as cheating on him, rusher than the sex itself. He is just self absorbed enough to let it bother him.

You could still be right, we just don't know.

[jerkit]

Mark referred to the sin more of as cheating on him, rusher than the sex itself. He is just self absorbed enough to let it bother him.

You could still be right, we just don't know.

There's a quote of that section here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -marriage/

He doesn't refer to it as cheating at all just, "sinning sexually"

[ILoveJellybeans]

There's a quote of that section here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -marriage/

He doesn't refer to it as cheating at all just, "sinning sexually"

Its funny how the perpetrators of these fundie sex scandals can minimise things so much. Of course it isn't "cheating" its just "sinning sexually" which sounds way less bad. Just like for Doug Phillips, it was "a romantic and affectionate relationship" instead of rape.

Generally, when a confession like that comes out, just assume it is 20 times worse than they say it is.

[louisa05]

I have absolutely no proof of this and it's entirely speculation.

I think Grace's "sin" was a sexual encounter with a woman.

Grace was not a virgin when she started dating Mark. He was fully aware she had sex with other men. And he still wanted to be with her and marry her. It wasn't until he had the vision of her "sexually sinning" that he said he wouldn't have married her if he knew. It couldn't have been just sleeping with another guy. It had to be something that mark would view as more serious.

I swear I saw/read somewhere that she made out with another guy on a high school band trip very shortly after they started dating.

If it had been a woman, he would have announced it to the church and divorced her. I have no doubt about that.

[jerkit]

I swear I saw/read somewhere that she made out with another guy on a high school band trip very shortly after they started dating.

If it had been a woman, he would have announced it to the church and divorced her. I have no doubt about that.

That is SO much worse, IMO. To say he wouldn’t have married her because she made out with some guy? Wow. I would almost rather it be my theory.

[jerkit]

One more thing: why would he call a teenage makeout session "sexually sinning"? He's not part of the no-touch-courtship crowd by any means.

[nokidsmom]

I am suspecting that given Mark's penchant for embellishment, that whatever it was that Grace did, it's being magnified thanks to his very obvious narcissism. Even if, say Grace did something fairly harmless, such as flirting with a guy, Mark would still go over the top viewing it as sin because how could she do this to great, wonderful him?