Couple Loses Septuplets

[browncoatslytherin]

They're also really pushing that former-NLF angle too.

which is funny, as it's practically nonexistant. he spent one actual season with an nfl team and one pre-season on the practice squad of another. the rest of the time in his career (from 2008-2011) he was in the ufl and only made it more than one season with one team...a ufl team.

[It'sFunToRun]

There is no chance for a high order multiple pregnancy when using Clomid on its own. There is the possibility for twins and a small percentage chance for triplets, but the chance of septuplets...no way.

I was on Clomid many moons ago and one of my requirements was that there was NO chance for a "litter" of children. I was only about 20 or 21 at the time and smart enough to know that IF there managed to be a successful outcome to that kind of pregnancy, there was no way that *I* was capable of taking care of that many babies at once.

Did you end up having kids?

[karen77]

If you are experiencing secondary infertility and don't get pregnant after 6 months (after having a child already) you can get drugs. I started on clomid at 9 months, becasue nothing ws happening (we have a daughter as well). but I was being monitored also, and we started on a low dose.

Clomid never did the trick, we ended up on a combo of femara, gonal-f and and IUI, plus a couple months prior to our successful IUI (did 3) I found out I was insulin resistant and started metformin for that. I honestly thing that was the main issue with my fertility. ANd I'm not a large person in general (I could lose 10 lbs, easily) but my regular doctor was shocked with the results from my glucose test. but with that last combo, we now have a little boy as well (he just turned 2).

ETA: I did have 3 follies ready to go that month too, so multiples freaked me out! (runs in my family too) I was so relieved to only see 1 in the u/s.

[browncoatslytherin]

If you are experiencing secondary infertility and don't get pregnant after 6 months (after having a child already) you can get drugs. I started on clomid at 9 months, becasue nothing ws happening (we have a daughter as well). but I was being monitored also, and we started on a low dose.

Clomid never did the trick, we ended up on a combo of femara, gonal-f and and IUI, plus a couple months prior to our successful IUI (did 3) I found out I was insulin resistant and started metformin for that. I honestly thing that was the main issue with my fertility. ANd I'm not a large person in general (I could lose 10 lbs, easily) but my regular doctor was shocked with the results from my glucose test. but with that last combo, we now have a little boy as well (he just turned 2).

ETA: I did have 3 follies ready to go that month too, so multiples freaked me out! (runs in my family too) I was so relieved to only see 1 in the u/s.

that's why i'm wondering if she did order drugs off the internet, what exactly she ordered. or if she's under the care of a doctor, why exactly she was started on fertility, especially so soon after trying. there are so many factors that could be why she wasn't conceiving as fast as normally than with her other two, it just seems odd a doctor would put her on something so quickly, especially if there are other, underlying health issues (like her being potentially underweight and the reasons behind that).

[karen77]

that's why i'm wondering if she did order drugs off the internet, what exactly she ordered. or if she's under the care of a doctor, why exactly she was started on fertility, especially so soon after trying. there are so many factors that could be why she wasn't conceiving as fast as normally than with her other two, it just seems odd a doctor would put her on something so quickly, especially if there are other, underlying health issues (like her being potentially underweight and the reasons behind that).

I completely agree, seems odd with her results that she'd be under the care of a fertility doc....but then again, the dr could have said..." you over responded to the clomid, don't have sex during your ovulation time" and they could have just ignored that, and poof!

[dairyfreelife]

I agree about embracing all choices. But at what point are they not a choice? At what point are you a slave to the idea? I feel some people just have children unconsciously without thinking the reasons they want them and because it's the next step. I was never implying no one should ever have kids. The world has to continue, right? It's this one aspect of existence is placed above everything else.

Where is diversity? Where are shows with happily child-free couples? If you tell women you must have kids no matter what the cost and no other option is valid, that's not much choice. I just wish some had told me it's ok if you never have kids or you could actually choose to marry and/or have kids. For some reason, this woman felt incomplete and cost 7 babies their lives.

Was there not a show, King something, that featured a childless couple. King of Queens or something like that. I am bad at names. House of Cards as well. Dharma and Greg. The Goode Life.

I agree there are not enough positive examples of childfree or even just childless couples. I just think we need more time. It is a relatively new phenomenon that people can choose to just not have children. There are 7 billion people in the world and growing ways to prevent having children. People now feel that they are not obligated to have children and can remain child-free. But since it is so new, some people are skeptical and there are still many who have it stuck in their mind that you get married and you have children because that's just what you do. The more open we are to the choices the better. I am sorry you felt so much pressure and I think we as a culture do need to tell people that it is okay to not want or not have children. It's okay to want children. It's okay to NOT want children too. However, this woman may have just wanted a lot of children. We do not really know if she kept going out of feeling obligated or because that's what she wanted.

Also, I meant I do NOT believe I am just a baby-maker in my previous post. In my first post above, I meant to end it with the words 'is not the goal'. I am on a crappy old computer with shift keys that do not work, so bare with me here.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I just never get it. Never understand it.

If you are devout enough a Christian that selective reduction violates your beliefs, how do you justify the medical intervention in the first place? Isn't that using science against God's will?

Maybe God intends for you to be barren? This particular woman already had two.

I can see utilizing every medical intervention to save a baby in-utero or after birth, a la Josie Duggar. I just don't get treatment to get pregnant when everything is supposed to be God's will.

I don't know anything about this couple's beliefs, but there are devoutly religious people (including some non-Christians) who are not religiously opposed to medical intervention.

My religion is generally very pro-medical intervention. Anything that saves a life or improves quality of life or allows you to fulfill a commandment (like being fruitful and multiplying) is considered the "vessel" for God's blessing. The religious debate is really just about what techniques are permitted, and whether any given procedure is likely to be too risky.

[August]

There is no chance for a high order multiple pregnancy when using Clomid on its own. There is the possibility for twins and a small percentage chance for triplets, but the chance of septuplets...no way.

I was on Clomid many moons ago and one of my requirements was that there was NO chance for a "litter" of children. I was only about 20 or 21 at the time and smart enough to know that IF there managed to be a successful outcome to that kind of pregnancy, there was no way that *I* was capable of taking care of that many babies at once.

You were lied to. Clomid results in HOM relatively often. I know of seeral sets of quads from clomid (read quite a few HOM blogs back in the day).

[Firiel]

If you are experiencing secondary infertility and don't get pregnant after 6 months (after having a child already) you can get drugs. I started on clomid at 9 months, becasue nothing ws happening (we have a daughter as well). but I was being monitored also, and we started on a low dose.

Clomid never did the trick, we ended up on a combo of femara, gonal-f and and IUI, plus a couple months prior to our successful IUI (did 3) I found out I was insulin resistant and started metformin for that. I honestly thing that was the main issue with my fertility. ANd I'm not a large person in general (I could lose 10 lbs, easily) but my regular doctor was shocked with the results from my glucose test. but with that last combo, we now have a little boy as well (he just turned 2).

ETA: I did have 3 follies ready to go that month too, so multiples freaked me out! (runs in my family too) I was so relieved to only see 1 in the u/s.

Femara! That's what this woman was supposedly on!

She tried one or two cycles with Clomid but switched to Femara after not getting pregnant.

[Rita]

Funny. Femara is the chemo drug I'm on. It makes me so foggy and incompetent, that I'm on Disability. It's really strange to see something I know of as poison as a fertility aid. Is this common?

[Curious]

Did you end up having kids?

I did, but not while I was on Clomid. Go figure. I took it for about a year and had no luck getting pregnant while on it. It was pretty expensive, even with insurance, so we decided to go off it. About 2-3 months after I went off it, I ended up in the hospital because of my back and a few weeks after that I started feeling just awful. The dr. first said flu, a week later when I still felt awful he did some tests and found nothing and said stress because I was going through a lot of testing for my back, a week later jokingly he said "well I guess you could be pregnant" and we both started laughing. Yep...pregnant.

With my second one, I got pregnant right after I had the mumps. I hadn't been using birth control for several years at that point. I always joke that I don't get pregnant unless something catastrophic happens first.

[Curious]

You were lied to. Clomid results in HOM relatively often. I know of seeral sets of quads from clomid (read quite a few HOM blogs back in the day).

I don't think I was lied to. If anything, this was 20+ years ago so there is more research now. However, I was curious so googled and from reading a few forums, it seems like the same information I was given is still being given out. About a 3-10% chance of twins and less for triplets. When used in combo with other drugs it can produce more follicles (but I said when used alone in my original post).

I also found this article, which is current: http://infertility.about.com/od/inferti ... _twins.htm

[karen77]

Funny. Femara is the chemo drug I'm on. It makes me so foggy and incompetent, that I'm on Disability. It's really strange to see something I know of as poison as a fertility aid. Is this common?

Yeah, it is...although I'm sure the dosage is a lot different.

I felt crappy on it too and was going to not use it on the next cycle, but then things worked out and never needed another cycle.

[AuntCloud]

The "I want twins/triplets/HOM" because it's so cool" makes my blood boil.

When I was young and foolish, I thought twins were cute. After two tours of duty in NICU with my (singleton) micro preemies, watching parents lose babies or hear the devastating news "severe brain bleed" or "I'm sorry, the lungs are in a really bad shape", or the dreaded NEC, anyone who willingly twists things around to increase the chances of multiples is a criminal, no less.

I had my children in a country that gives out free fertility treatments until you have two bio kids, regardless of how many children your spouse may have, and no cost whatsoever for NICU other than parking and overpriced cafeteria coffee. It's also a country that makes having children a priority. I know first hand that neonatologists went up against fertility clinics and were successfully able to put some regulations in place to reduce the number of very premature, very sick multiples. Any sane parent would rather have every single procedure their baby is enduring rather than watch helplessly as their under-2-lb preemie is undergoing numerous painful procedures every day.

Off my soapbox now, and if these parents are looking for my sympathy, I have none - or better yet, I'll save it to their two living children who are obviously not special enough to show off their parents' Godliness.

PS having my second micro preemie in 2 years was my clue to quit the reproduction race, not try for another and see if my body will finally learn not to go haywire with preeclampsia at 24-25 weeks.

[ark]

This is just the other side of choice.

Just as women have the right to have an abortion, they also have the right to choose not to abort. Even if (general) you, don't agree with them, you can't have it both ways. If a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body, then it can't be an either/or situation. It can't be right just because you agree with it and would do it yourself and then be outraged because it wouldn't be your choice.

Choice is choice and it confuses me that people can't see that in a situation such as this.

[Firiel]

This is just the other side of choice.

Just as women have the right to have an abortion, they also have the right to choose not to abort. Even if (general) you, don't agree with them, you can't have it both ways. If a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body, then it can't be an either/or situation. It can't be right just because you agree with it and would do it yourself and then be outraged because it wouldn't be your choice.

Choice is choice and it confuses me that people can't see that in a situation such as this.

No one is saying that she legally should have been forced to selectively reduce. We are questioning the truthfulness of her story, mostly, but also the wisdom of going on fertility drugs after two kids and only nine months of trying.

I, for one, don't buy that her doctor only saw one mature follicle and two immature ones and then OOPS SURPRISE SEPTUPLETS. When I think of the odds of that versus the odds that a person might be a liar, one is far more likely statistically than the other.

[browncoatslytherin]

This is just the other side of choice.

Just as women have the right to have an abortion, they also have the right to choose not to abort. Even if (general) you, don't agree with them, you can't have it both ways. If a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body, then it can't be an either/or situation. It can't be right just because you agree with it and would do it yourself and then be outraged because it wouldn't be your choice.

Choice is choice and it confuses me that people can't see that in a situation such as this.

i think there is still a bit of a difference with this, though.

granted, this was her choice. BUT...the thing is, she created this situation by taking fertility drugs that she may or may not have really needed, that she may or may not have gotten legitimately from an ethical doctor who may or may not be aware of other health issues she has (like a concerning look for being underweight, which is not good for fertility in general).

while there are facts that are not known, at best a doctor just up and gave them drugs after they tried for nine months with no success (after two successful term pregnancies, one pretty recently), which is unethical, in my healthcare-minded opinion, to do so without having them try for a little bit longer or look into other potential reasons (like the fact that she looks like she may be underweight, which again can affect fertility). at worst, they created a situation to get more children by either deceiving a doctor or obtaining drugs online without a prescription or being seen and evaluated by a doctor.

honestly, by the way the article was written and released (especially the way they played up the husband's practically non-existant nfl career) i think they were more minded for notoriety for this than anything else...either they would have lots of kids coming in, which obviously means money and gifts (like the gosselins and duggars and other large families can get) or they would be praised for their moral convictions. not to sound cold, but if that is what they were going for and it was their mindset, it's a win-win situation (disclaimer: obviously it's still sad she lost the babies and i'm not trying to say it's not sad or anything like that, i'm only saying if notoriety was their aim, they get it either way, so the goal itself is still achieved in some part, and that is the "win-win situation" i'm referring to, nothing else).

and, while it's sad that she lost children that she wanted to have, it's consequences for a set of circumstances that were artificially created. it's actually the more common consequence. women like nadya sulemon and kate gosselin are famous because of the fact that it's so rare to successfully carry so many babies. honestly, what did they really think was going to happen if they didn't reduce? the statistically likely outcome happened. i honestly don't see WHY it's newsworthy...unless, you know, they want to make something of themselves from it. though, considering the husband's lackluster professional football career, i hope he has a backup career plan to support the family he has.

[VelociRapture]

I honestly don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand, they made their choices and suffered the consequences. On the other hand, they are still parents who lost babies that seem to have been wanted.

If they did this strictly to get famous then shame on them. There are so many people who desperately want just one healthy child. If they really did just want attention then they are the lowest of the low.

If they didn't want to be famous then I do feel sorry for their loss. I honestly can't imagine what it must be like to go through this situation.

I accidentally overheard a woman grieving the loss of a very much wanted baby. I watched their cat for them when they went on vacation a few times and went to return their house key, not knowing that they had been pregnant (very early on) or that she had suffered a miscarriage on the trip. The sound of her crying is something I will never, ever forget and just makes me more sympathetic to people who have suffered similar losses.

[happy atheist]

If they didn't want to be famous, they didn't have to issue a press release about the loss.

[browncoatslytherin]

If they didn't want to be famous, they didn't have to issue a press release about the loss.

did anyone even know about them before the loss? like, a report about a woman carrying so many implanted embryos and refusing to reduce, or something like that? i personally haven't found it. if there had been something about it or if they were more famous and well-known already, i could understand a press release.

but to just randomly issue a press release about losing a pregnancy, no matter how many were lost...yeah, it seems like a pretty random attempt at a fame grab.

[VelociRapture]

If they didn't want to be famous, they didn't have to issue a press release about the loss.

I know. I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt, even if the answer seems super obvious (like it does with this couple).

[DGayle]

This is just the other side of choice.

Just as women have the right to have an abortion, they also have the right to choose not to abort. Even if (general) you, don't agree with them, you can't have it both ways. If a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body, then it can't be an either/or situation. It can't be right just because you agree with it and would do it yourself and then be outraged because it wouldn't be your choice.

Choice is choice and it confuses me that people can't see that in a situation such as this.

Show me where anyone has said she should have been forced to abort. No one did.

However when it comes to drugs of any sort, doctors have an obligation to prescribe them ethically. A woman without a history of infertility, still well within the normal time to get pregnant, after a couple very recent pregnancies, isn't a candidate yet for fertility drugs. Prescribing them in this situation is very dangerous, which is why ethical doctors won't. It's NOT a doctor not respecting a woman's rights, but rather the whole do-no-harm thing. The chance of harm far, far outweighed the potential benefits in this case. Since this isn't a life or death scenario, that means not going along with the woman's desires. It's not ethical, and can result in a doctor losing medical licensing, like Nadya Suleman's doctor.

But aside from that, there's some clear lying going on here. She got drugs of the internet (very easy to get everything from Clomid to Follistim), or found an unethical doctor, or something. There are too many red flags that this couple was hoping to get a show, a book dal, something, out of this.

[ark]

Show me where anyone has said she should have been forced to abort. No one did.

Show me where I said anyone said she should have been forced to abort. I did not.

My point was that she choose not to abort knowing that it could have a devastating outcome. Several people disagreed with her choice and my point is that it was still her choice whether (general) you agree or not.

I did not address any of the other issues such as the dr's ethics. I don't know enough of the facts to address those.

I do agree that the only reason we are reading this story is because they put it out there.

[browncoatslytherin]

Show me where I said anyone said she should have been forced to abort. I did not.

My point was that she choose not to abort knowing that it could have a devastating outcome. Several people disagreed with her choice and my point is that it was still her choice whether (general) you agree or not.

I did not address any of the other issues such as the dr's ethics. I don't know enough of the facts to address those.

I do agree that the only reason we are reading this story is because they put it out there.

your point is taken, however it is a minor point in this thread of discussion. more like a footnote, really. in fact, it is worlds away from the meat of what we're discussing at this point. what we're discussing now isn't her choice of reducing or not reducing so much as how she came to bear so many little embryos all at once, the logistics and logic of how and why it happened, and why they've chosen to publicize this tragic event in their lives that, imo, should have been kept private.

[Firiel]

As per her blog, the first two children were a surprise, which can mean one of two things-- either they were actively trying to prevent pregnancy and it happened anyway or they are the kind of dumb folks who are "surprised" when they get pregnant without using any protection.

If the first is true, then she's even less infertile than we may have thought.

I've started reading her blog, starting from when she wanted a third baby, btw. Will report back when interesting.