World Revival Church in Kansas City, MO

[Thatthirdguy]

Facts about Jubilation ministries 

1: Steve Gray was involved in very cult like music scene and similar to David Koresh and then goes on to start a church in smithton Missouri and with his personality he needed people to feed his ego.  

2: The smithton outpouring video you see people running to the front and even people from smithton said it was staged because Steve Gray wanted the attention the Brownsville revival was getting.  

3: when they moved from smithton they took off and ran with the money instead of building the new building near the smithton area. 

4:  when they came to Kansas City Steve Gray pissed off many of the Pastord and leaders in the city with his arrogant approach and he has no respect with some of the big church leaders in Kansas City. 

5: They went from a modest $150k house in Lee’s summit area to a $600k house in a matter of a couple of years. 

6: Steve & Kathy Gray”s salary is around $300k each and had a $90k vehicle and boats and a toys and none of that was made by his book sales and paid for by innocent members that barely make it and give all they can but it goes into  his pockets instead.

7: Steve Gray has no desire to reach out to anyone in there backyard and they have even made statements about the neighborhood behind the church that many of there own members lives at. 

8: The School of ministry is built on brainwashing you into there system and so you can stay there forever and never go out and I know several pastors that asked JD and Steve Gray for help and he refused to send someone to there church to lead worship or anything and so the school of ministry is a scam. 

9: They have trained people to gather testimonies and they coach the people on what to say and also forcing them to give one even if there not sure there fully healed and most went back home and still had the same problem. 

10: while they  guilted people into taking there vacation time and volunteering at the church and Steve Gray and family would go rent out a huge house on the lake and take multipule vacations on the church dime

11: in order to give a prophetic word to someone you had to get permission from the pastors but basically that was saying you don’t hear from God but only Steve Gray does 

12: they forced you to know the fake smithton story and the roots of the church more than you did the Bible and they told you to tell others that story and that is what Multi lace marketers do with there scam businesses. 

13: they have boats that are listed under the 9900 view high dr taxes that should be for any member to use and they use it for there luxury. 

14: There is no financial accountability since the board members are Steve Gray and his adopted daughter now!

15: Steve Gray is not accountable to anyone!

16:  A friend of mine was punched by Steve Gray during a service because there was some  seats not filled near the front to and another friend was pushed down while trying to leave a meeting because he was mad at this person and this is why Steve Gray is evil and mean

17: The big leadership at daystsar pulled the revival on Friday nights after finding out it was staged.

18: Steve Grays movie was a flop because he burned bridges with the Hollywood people and even the volunteers that spent countless hours on the set making it happen. 

 

19:  He would hire people that where not qualified and over work them for little pay 

 

I know now you are stuck in there system but get your family out of there before it’s to late 

[ThatOneGuy]

Thanks for all of that.

a couple questions... what does “a cult like” music ministry? I seriously have no idea what this means. I mean, David Koresh had a compound where people were kept from leaving with sexual abuse at its core. How does that parallel jubilation music ministry?

aside from that, a lot of this is opinion. I know, I’m drinking the cool aid and all, but I think your “facts” are loosely based on here say.

For instance, were you personally denied giving a prophetic word?

Have you asked and been denied use of a boat?

Have you been “coached” in testimony giving?

Have you asked him if he’s reached out to people in said neighborhood? And... is that his obligation? Is a pastor responsible for door knocking? 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[thatsecondguy]

I can actually confirm alot of those things listed. What evidence would you like? I'm very familiar with the families who moved and who decided not to move from Smithton to KC.

Also, here's a clip of him threatening families that their kids will leave them.

 

 

 

Also, another where a woman literally get on her knees for him. After he asked her to do this in front of everyone.

 

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

On 1/11/2019 at 11:39 AM, ThatOneGuy said:

Thatthirdguy,

spoken by someone who was probably in it waaaay to deep or has no idea what you’re talking about.

If you believe this church is so wonderful, why would you use the term "in it way too deep"? People use that phrase for bad things, not good ones. 

(And as a proud grammar freak, all three of you are paining me with your misuse of "your" and "you're"; "there", "their", and "they're"; and "too" and "to". I realize that's really my problem, not yours, though.) 

Also, let me introduce you to the joy of tagging another user. Instead of simply saying "ThatOneGuy" in your comment, type an "at" symbol: @. Then, type the name of the user to whom you're referring. Click the user name from the choices that pop up, and you'll get this: @ThatOneGuy. Now the user you've tagged will be notified you're talking to them. Ta-dah!!

Tagging @thatsecondguy and @Thatthirdguy to emphasize my point. Welcome to FJ, y'all!

[ThatOneGuy]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?, thanks for the lesson. I’ve never used this site until I found this topic and commented, and when this conversation is exhausted, I won’t be using it anymore. As far as grammar goes, I definitely know and use the correct verbiage, but, I don’t proofread to see what auto correct may have mid-corrected, so there ya go!

to answer your “in too deep” question, I was referring to people who get in and begin striving for recognition & position. When they don’t get it, they get offended, leave church and then start spouting off about all the crap they’ve learned while they were there. 

 

@thatsecondguy let’s call these videos what they really are. There is no threatening in the 1st video. What power or leverage does he have to threaten with? What control does he have to cause outcomes of children leaving families? He’s merely talking about what he’s seen/experienced. Definitely not “threatening” so try again.

second video, he asked them to speak about a conversation they shared with him. He didn’t ask her, nor did he have any control of her getting on her knees. 

Do you have any personal experience? If not, and if all of your complaints/issues with this church & pastors are all based on other people’s offenses, then you’re really no help in saving me from my cultish lifestyle. Anyone can make stuff up, twist stories, and even twist the messages of video clips. If you have no personal experience, your opinion is kinda invalid. It’s like leaving a negative review of a restaurant you’ve never been to, but your uncle hated.

 

[thatsecondguy]

@ThatOneGuy  You're right. He doesn't directly threaten people. He is very subtle. He throws out phrases like "they have you more than I/we do" referring to people and their kids spending more time outside of the church than inside the church. So, he implies that if you aren't spending enough time at the church, your kids will leave you. He pads his manipulation with a lot of words to distract you from what he's saying. There are very few kids who grew up there that stayed there. So, that is something to think about and evaluate. For most, they didn't leave because they didn't spend enough time in church. It was too much time in church and they didn't have a life outside of it.

Second video --- "he asked them to speak about a conversation they shared with him" --- That's a big part of the point. Steve has a private lunch with these people where they tell him how great he is and how important what he is doing. Then he says - "Hey! I really liked how these people praised me and said what I was doing was important! Now, why don't you get up in front of a bunch of people and help convince them how great I am and that what I am doing is important."

You are right, he also didn't make her get on her knees. She did that on her own. And it is super weird. Throw that in with the fact that her husband is telling people not to just "drink the kool-aid, but swim in it."

"Do I have personal experience?" Does it matter? From my experience - if someone leaves, "they got offended." So that invalidates them. If they've never been, "It’s like leaving a negative review of a restaurant you’ve never been to, but your uncle hated."  

The whole point is to be defensive of negative reviews. Regardless of how valid it is. 

Shoot, I could tell you that I was there at the VERY beginning. That I witnessed how the week before Steve came back from his trip to Florida after he felt completely destroyed by a division in the church, Kathy had the church rehearse what the congregation was going to do once Steve walked in the door. And when Steve walked in the door, they did exactly that. But, it wouldn't matter if I was there, or saw everything, or anything. Because I just got offended and left.

I mean, doesn't the fact that there are maybe two or three families who were there "Pre-Revival" left make you scratch your head? Or did they all the others just "burn out" and "get offended?"

 

[Palimpsest]

Well, this is all very interesting.  Kansas City seems quite a hotbed of controversial "churches."  World Revival Church and Steve Gray among them.  I gather WRC is Pentecostal, or somewhat Pentecostal, in origin.

I found those videos creepy, if not actually culty, but I've barely scratched the surface on this particular congregation.  It seems a bit pastor-worshiping.  And I think pastor worshiping is almost always a A Very Bad Thing and a good indicator of potential cult activity.

Are @ThatOneGuy, @@thatsecondguy, and @Thatthirdguy, familiar with this site https://azusareport.com/world-revival-church/

And the article in Christianity Today linked on page 1 of this thread.

And these reviews on TripAdvisor, of all places:  https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g44535-d2234344-Reviews-World_Revival_Church-Kansas_City_Missouri.html#REVIEWS

Thoughts and comments, please.

On another subject, the Rembises:  That is a blast from the past, @Howl.  They were pretty shocking,  Didn't they eventually get their children returned.

On 1/11/2019 at 12:04 PM, Howl said:

But more to the point, I'm certain they were heavily involved with this church. While their kids were wards of the state and they were supposed to be getting their financial lives back together, they went off for a special weekend (week?) at the big church in Kansas City. 

I'm probably wrong, but I could have sworn the church the Rembises were involved with was International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City. The name stuck in my mind because it was a church - not a purveyor of pancakes and bottomless mugs of coffee. https://www.ihopkc.org/

[ThatOneGuy]

@Palimpsest that’s an interesting read.

As a member of the church, anything I have to say that is contradictory to this article would be looked at as nothing but denial from a cult member. I’d be told “get out while you can” again, as if I may not have the chance to “escape” later. I’d be told that I am drinking, or better yet, swimming in the kool aid. So here’s the thing: If you want to know my thoughts, re-read this string. If you want to know more, I’ll share anything that I have knowledge of and my opinion on whatever it may be. On the other hand, if you’ve already made up your mind, I won’t try to change it. I’m not butt-hurt over name calling or what people think. I am happy to have a conversation though. 

Let me know where you want this to go from here, and I’ll do my part to facilitate whatever direction you want to take it.

[formergothardite]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:16 AM, ThatOneGuy said:

Generally, when people talk about their “escape” or use that kind of language, it’s because they are the ones who had high hopes of becoming somebody in the church and seeking recognition. When they don’t get what they feel they deserve, they leave angry and spread false info, much like what Elizabeth R. Posted. If you come here like my family did, to encounter God and pursue a life of Godliness, without anterior motives (like seeking to be placed in ministry) there’s a good chance that you’ll love it, stay, and grow.

When cult members come here they never do a good job of convincing us it isn't a cult! Seriously, this sounds exactly like a cult would say towards critics! If you disagree with us it isn't that WE might have a problem it that YOU just had bad motives. Painting all critics as having ulterior motives and only bitter because they couldn't get power is classic cult move. I don't really know anything about this organization, I'll go learn more but from just reading this response I'm going to go out on a limb and say this organization at the very least has cult like tendencies. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by formergothardite

[ThatOneGuy]

@formergothardite I don’t intend to convince anyone that this isn’t a cult. I simply stated my experiences, like everyone else here. When asked questions, I answer. I personally don’t care if every person on the planet believes that this is a cult. I’m not responsible to them. I’m responsible to God. 

@Palimpsest I do find it humorous that the writer of that article uses Dr. Michael Brown as a reference.. Dr. Brown is a friend of the church and has spoken here before. 

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, ThatOneGuy said:

I don’t intend to convince anyone that this isn’t a cult.

Okay. What is your point posting here since you are okay with us calling it a cult and believing it is a cult?

But to add a question to question, does the organization in general support Donald Trump? 

[Howl]

46 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm probably wrong, but I could have sworn the church the Rembises were involved with was International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City. The name stuck in my mind because it was a church - not a purveyor of pancakes and bottomless mugs of coffee. https://www.ihopkc.org/

@Palimpsest, thank you for your institutional memory; you are correct! It was IHOP. 

Who knew that one city could have at least two crazy churches?   Yes, as I recall, there was a prayer room where people are praying 24-7. 

And yes, the Rembis family did finally reunite after the kids were in various kinds of foster care in Lubbock, TX for almost a year.  The oldest son was not in foster care; he aged out of the system. 

I think the Rembis' refused to get all of the various kinds of counseling mandated by the court, but they must have gotten it together enough to have a secure situation for the kids, so the court finally relented. 

 I'm sure they skedaddled out of Texas STAT and took the crazy to another state.  In the past they moved after they'd been investigated by CPS in more than one state and more than one town. 

[ThatOneGuy]

@formergothardite My point in posting here?

i saw a post asking if anyone knew anything about the church. I replied to the post. Simple as that.

As far as Donald Trump goes, I personally voted for him. He was my 3rd pick, but my 1st 2 didn’t survive. The church has a healthy mix of political views. Some extreme on either side, so as a whole in support of Trump, I’d have to say no.

Edited January 15, 2019 by ThatOneGuy

[formergothardite]

Are church leaders and teachings supposedly "from God" and therefore immune from criticism?

If members leave because they are unhappy is the church open to the idea that the church may be at fault and may be to blame? Or do they do what you do and blame the people instead? 

[ThatOneGuy]

Wow. I just saw that I have a community reputation of -13. There are some very opinionated people on here. I can bet that several of you preach tolerance and are against bigotry. Selah.

[formergothardite]

1 minute ago, ThatOneGuy said:

As far as Donald Trump goes, I personally voted for him.

Do the church teachings condone his current behaviors(such as is penchant for childish name calling) and statements about immigrants? Would the church be willing to help those fleeing gang violence in South America and encourage the government to offer them asylum? 

What are the church view on white privilege? Do they acknowledge it or do anything to combat it? 

Is anything done to help support those in poverty in the community? 

I glanced through the website but if these questions are answered there you can link me to them or just point me in the general direction. 

3 minutes ago, ThatOneGuy said:

I can bet that several of you preach tolerance and are against bigotry.

That is often a misconception people have when they come here. Tolerance for everything is hardly a common belief among members. And don't take the downvotes personally. We have all gotten our fair share of negative votes. 

[ThatOneGuy]

@formergothardite in response to your questions, but minus the snarky, insulting tone, I don’t know anyone at the church that is opposed to criticism. I have questioned things spoken from the pulpit. 

I’ll answer your 2nd question with a question.

is it ANY church’s responsibility to make the congregants happy? Isn’t it the member’s responsibility to find where THEY fit, not the churches responsibility to change to accommodate everyone’s mood of the day?

and if a member of ANY church leaves because they’re unhappy, isn’t it THEM with the issue, since the majority of the other members are content. Granted, they may be angry/upset/unhappy with the church, but who chooses who? If they’re not happy, go somewhere where you are. No one wants unhappy church members in their congregation.

[ThatOneGuy]

@formergothardite wow, you’re keeping me busy.

The only political conversation in church is “pray for our leaders” and that doesn’t change no matter who is in office. They ALL need prayer and guidance from heaven.

We are a church of many cultures. Legal Immigration is necessary for a thriving culture. 

We have relationships with inner city churches and partner together for meetings and community outreach.

We donate $ and clothing to City Union Mission, a shelter & ministry for homeless men, and also to Hope House, a shelter & ministry for women & children.

Thanks for your legit questions.

Gotta go for now.

[formergothardite]

 You are doing way better in answering questions than the Remnant Fellowship folks who literally couldn't compose sentences or tell you what their church believes.

3 minutes ago, ThatOneGuy said:

and if a member of ANY church leaves because they’re unhappy, isn’t it THEM with the issue, since the majority of the other members are content.

It depends. I've been a whole lot of churches in my lifetime and have seen members leave plenty of times with legitimate criticisms of a church, but people staying ignore the church problems it because that is often the easier path. I have attended only one church where when I stopped going they actually reached out to ask why. When I explained why I did they actually took it into consideration, realized that the church was going down a bad path and made a change. When they did that it came out more people were actually unhappy about that one thing, but were tolerating it because the church was their social group and leaving friends and activities and attempting to start over is difficult. Especially if they will be accused, like you accused, of only being unhappy because they had ulterior motives. 

 

[ThatOneGuy]

@formergothardite you’re big on accusing me of accusing other people. Couldn’t help but notice. ??

Show me my accusation again, please. 

[Palimpsest]

 

Blimey.  I can't even get a straight answer from @ThatOneGuy concerning whether his church is Pentecostal, sort of Pentecostal, or partly Pentecostal.

And claiming that there is no point in his saying anything else because it would be seen as denial by a cult member sort of implies a persecution complex common in cult members.

I don't actually label all religious organisations as cults simply because I don't like or agree with their teachings.  I tend to be a bit more sociologically discerning than that about it.  I also think there are accusations of here against Pastor Gray both of being a "cult leader" and a "scam artist."  Although there are some common characteristics between them, they are not the same thing. 

So here is a handy Cult Characteristics checklist.  It is meant  for analytical not diagnostic purposes, but for us ignoramuses here it would be nice if @ThatOneGuy, @thatsecondguy, and @Thatthirdguy took a look and identified how Jubilation Ministries and World Revival Church score.  I've numbered them for convenience.

1. Quote

   1. ‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
   2. ‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
   3. ‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
   4. ‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
   5. ‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
   6. ‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
   7. ‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
   8. ‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
   9. ‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
   10. ‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
   11. ‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
   12. ‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.
   13. ‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
   14. ‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
   15. ‪ The most loyal members (the true believers) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

    

   Source: Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised; Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.

But, frankly, in that second video when the church member fell on her knees while Pastor Gray could not have prevented it he could have stopped it fast.  However he was lapping it up.  Any decent pastor would have hauled her up on her feet again and told her not to beg or pray to him.  Very creepy and, yes, cult-like.

Selah, to you too, @ThatOneGuy.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Palimpsest
typos

[formergothardite]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:16 AM, ThatOneGuy said:

Generally, when people talk about their “escape” or use that kind of language, it’s because they are the ones who had high hopes of becoming somebody in the church and seeking recognition.

What did you mean by this if you aren't meaning to accuse critics who leave of having ulterior motives? 

12 minutes ago, ThatOneGuy said:

 wow, you’re keeping me busy.

I have found that if I do this in real life people super stop wanting you to attend their church! Most churches really don't seem to want members who constantly ask critical question.

14 minutes ago, ThatOneGuy said:

Legal Immigration is necessary for a thriving culture. 

This was not actually answering the question about people seeking asylum fleeing gang violence. There is a humanitarian crisis where in the past people could seek asylum here if they were fleeing gang violence but because of Trump they no longer can. IMO, if a church can look at those people, shrug and say "sucks to be you, there is no legal way to come here, so we will not do anything to try and change things." then that isn't a church that shows kindness. 

[formergothardite]

19 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

But, frankly, in that second video when the church member fell on her knees while Pastor Gray could not have prevented it he could have stopped it fast.  However he was lapping it up.  Any decent pastor would have hauled her up on her feet again and told her not to beg or pray to him.  Very creepy and, yes, cult-like.

I just watched it and it was disturbing. Why is that deemed okay, @ThatOneGuy? A truly humble, good pastor would have put a stop to it and told her to get up off her knees because no one needs to beg him. Instead that behavior was applauded like the pastor was happy a woman was on her knees, crying and begging him. 

And how can you claim that people can be critical of the pastor since we have a video of him saying that if you get mad at him then your children will get mad at you? He is teaching that if you have an issue with him then you will lose your child. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by formergothardite

[ThatOneGuy]

@formergothardite gee whiz, I’ve answered all your questions and you’ve only grown more bitter toward me. I’m sorry, I must have missed a question about being Pentecostal... but saying you can’t get a straight answer out of me??? All I’ve been doing for the last hour is answering your questions. For crying out loud, what do you want? I even thanked you for asking legit questions. A “thanks for answering my questions” would have been kind, and you should have known that because apparently now you’re an authority on showing kindness.

Regarding people who leave a church:

I said, and it’s documented in this thread, that people who use “escape” type language.

That is certainly NOT everyone who leaves a church, and that also is certainly not an accusation against people who leave churches. I have left 2 churches. I escaped neither of them. One of them I did leave because I was offended. When I realized that the offense was MY fault and that it was MY reaponsibility to deal with it, I left. 

Would you like to address your accusations toward me, or shall we sweep them under the rug? Or how about your bitter tude toward me?

As for being Pentecostal, no we’re not Pentecostal. We do believe in the Pentecostal, as it it documented in the Bible. 

 

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, ThatOneGuy said:

I’m sorry, I must have missed a question about being Pentecostal... but saying you can’t get a straight answer out of me???

To be fair, that was my question and not @formergothardite's.  And I was the one who said I couldn't get a straight answer out of you too.

If your church is not Pentecostal how would you describe it?  What makes it different and preferable to other churches?  What is the organisational structure within the church?  What supervision does the pastor receive?

Please have a look at my checklist too and consider whether your church might have cult characteristics, just for yourself.