Caleb Williams

[Carm_88]

A 14-15 year old cannot give consent. Full stop, no look back. I don't care if you think that you are the most mature kid on the planet, you are still a kid. The laws are in place to protect teens for a reason. They think that they know it all and end up groomed by perverts. And if you are over the age of 18 and you are trying to engage in sexual activity with a 13-14 year old, you are a pervert.

I have stated this before that I will always believe the victims in these situations. Because women have nothing to gain and everything to lose by accusing a man of sexual assault. This poor girl was brave enough to come forward and say that this wasn't ok and people have the nerve to say that she wanted this. You weren't in the room, you do not know what happened, and you can take your bullshit and shove it. Don't make up pretty stories, it was assault. She did not want it. Stop making excuses for men!

If you want to make shit up, write a fucking novel or fanfiction.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Aggravated Criminal Sexual Abuse!!!!!!!!!!!!

And there’s people here defending this POS?  I am gobsmacked and so disgusted by some of the bullshit I’ve read here.  I believe the girl.  I will always believe the girl.  I don’t care what anyone says 13 and 14 can’t give consent, they do not have the critical thinking skills to do so.  Especially being raised in an abusive cult that degrades women.

?

[VelociRapture]

33 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

A 14-15 year old cannot give consent. Full stop, no look back. I don't care if you think that you are the most mature kid on the planet, you are still a kid. The laws are in place to protect teens for a reason. They think that they know it all and end up groomed by perverts. And if you are over the age of 18 and you are trying to engage in sexual activity with a 13-14 year old, you are a pervert.

I have stated this before that I will always believe the woman or girl in these situations. Because women have nothing to gain and everything to lose by accusing a man of sexual assault. This poor girl was brave enough to come forward and say that this wasn't ok and people have the nerve to say that she wanted this. You weren't in the room, you do not know what happened, and you can take your bullshit and shove it. Don't make up pretty stories, it was assault. She did not want it. Stop making excuses for men!

If you want to make shit up, write a fucking novel or fanfiction.

My only suggested edit here is that you change “woman” and “girl” to “victim.” Females may be more likely to be victims, but males can be as well - and that doesn’t even include people who don’t fall into either of those genders. Otherwise I completely agree with your post. 

[AnnaRuk09]

The predator: 

[VineHeart137]

10 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

MY unpopular opinion:  this girl was "all in" for the relationship for a couple of years, got dumped, never got over him (may still love him - and Im not putting love in quotes because to a 14/15/16-year-old, it really is love), but due to the #metoo movement may have developed a different perspective. 

I would really like to know how in the hell you managed to reach this appalling conclusion with the amazingly little information we have to go on. My husband actually asked me what was wrong because I'm giving my phone the biggest WTF face right now.

[nausicaa]

9 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Do the math. Do you think a 23-year-old fingering a 15-year-old is cool?

I am still working my way through this thread (cause I keep slipping into a rage coma every couple of posts). 

I did want to add to this-- I was a tutor for high schoolers when I was 23. Not only would I have never have dreamed of having any type of relationship with a 15 year old, I really need to emphasize how I was in such a wildly different place in life from them. I was a young adult, and they were very clearly still kids. I think some people on this thread may not be around teenagers that much, and so don't understand that they don't look and act like the sophisticated 25 year old lookalikes often depicted in movies and TV shows. 

At 23, I had been a legal adult for half a decade. I had lived away from home, voted in a presidential election, owned and drove a car, had attended and graduated college, paid taxes, put on a blazer and gone on job interviews, had held multiple jobs, had sexual partners and romantic break ups, paid bills, and most importantly, my brain had left its adolescent fog.

The fifteen year olds I tutored had never held jobs or lived away from their parents, didn't know how to drive, often thought cars and houses cost only hundred of dollars, many still didn't have all of their molars nor had reached their adult heights. I didn't discuss sex with them, but I really doubt many fully understood different sex acts and the full consequences of them. They were incredibly naive and malleable (however "tough" they tried to appear--and I would argue that tough veneer was just another sign of how young and vulnerable they were). There is zero chance any relationship between them and someone in their early twenties could have been healthy or mutually respectful. Just zero fucking chance. 

[Casserole]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Isn't there a (strong) possibility that there is a connection between a culture of such young sexual activity and issues later on? And isn't there a possibility of some virulent sexism in said culture in which very young girls are sexualized and must find value and attention through sex with much older men rather than through academic or extracurricular accomplishments?

Since I mentioned the hindsight statutory rape, I'll elaborate. Short answer, yes, there's a connection. 

At 15 I was drugged and raped at a party by another 17 year old "minor." The following year was a series of really bad decisions in an effort to "regain" control of my life and sexuality, one of which was dating/sexual activity with a manager of the restaurant I was a hostess at. Statutory rape on 2 counts; one for age, one for power dynamic. Followed up with dating a guy in his senior year of college who had no business with a kid who couldn't even legally drive a car yet. My whole life up until that point I was constantly told I was like a little old woman, so mature for my age, etc. etc. so I didn't see the red flags with age differences, but they were there. They were preying on a very vulnerable girl. 

Instead of continuing the cycle, I got a therapist and continued on my extensive education. Now I tend to live by the saying "be who you needed when you were younger" and I have stepped in here and there when I noticed some red flags in some young women's lives and relationships solely to make sure they feel safe and respected and inquire about potential things going on in their lives. 

The cycle doesn't end unless you actively try to end it. 

[nickelodeon]

30 minutes ago, VineHeart137 said:

I would really like to know how in the hell you managed to reach this appalling conclusion with the amazingly little information we have to go on. My husband actually asked me what was wrong because I'm giving my phone the biggest WTF face right now.

Right? How do you look at a police report where all information about the victim is carefully redacted and shrouded in protocol and be like "hmm.......she sure sounds like a spiteful, lying jerk"? Talk about projection.

[HurricaneBells]

6 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I’ll defend it. An age gap of 5 or 6 years isn’t remotely unusual in my world. And starting to have sex young, with a guy who is 5 or 6 years older isn’t unusual either. I certainly understood the concept of consent at 14. 

I can understand 14 year old you thought that because so did 14 year old me but 38 year old me knows better...... 

 

 

[AliceInFundyland]

@nausicaa Not to be flippant, but I shall never equate adulthood with blazers.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

2 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I understand when discussing statutory rape (NOT what is being discussed in the Caleb Williams charges btw, just here in my post) things can enter grey areas. I dated a 19 year old while I was 16. It was consensual. It wasn't great for me and if I could do it again I wouldn't date him, but I wouldn't call it abusive. But sexually active 14 year olds with twenty something men? We're going to defend that? 

 

Exactly. There was an issue at my high school that a lot of people felt fell into a grey area (not with me, but a classmate) but this is nowhere near that. 

Plus, these are fundies we're talking about. When are these things ever teenagers thinking they're in consensual relationships? 

 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

[neurogirl]

Also, the assumption was that this 14 year old was "mature for her age" which even IF true (and what does that even mean), sexual contact by a 20-something man is a CRIME.

But it's also likely that this 14 year old is "young for her age." For all of you sharing anecdotes about how you were dating older men, etc., I would not have my first kiss until I was 18. At 14 I had crippling self-esteem, felt awkward watching PG-13 movies, didn't know much about sex except PinV leads to sperm and egg combining, never learned about consent or contraception or other forms of sex, and still had stuffed animals in my bed. I definitely saw people in their 20s as grown ass adults who belonged in a different world from me. The young teens are such a tough time of transition - puberty, mean girls, childhood interests and friendships growing stronger or getting replaced, acne, the pressure of excelling in high school academics and the social strata...and young teenagers can look and act very different from each other in "maturity level" I guess. So would your opinion change if this 14 year-old had been more naive and sheltered than the 14 year old you are imagining?

But the real point is, this innocent young teen may have been wearing/not wearing makeup, interested in boys or girls or neither, falling asleep with stuffed animals or MAYBE other teens (which even then, is not normal in my world at all), but in all these cases, a 21 year old man is SO DIFFERENT and should be living in an entirely different world of adults. 14-year olds are not adults. 16-year olds are not adults. There is a huge amount of transition in high school, and then again from 18-23. I am disgusted that "Caleb is falsely accused" would be some people's first thoughts. Especially considering what we know about the fundie world he was raised in. Gross.

[Carm_88]

Mature at 14 still makes her 14 and being 14 makes it illegal. That is it. There is no need to talk about if she is mature for her age or not. It does not matter, it is illegal and that is that. Mature at 14 should still be way too young for a man in his late teens/early 20s.

[ViolaSebastian]

I once told a man who was my boyfriend as an adult the story about what had happened to me as a teenager. I tried to explain the situation, that I thought the guy who raped me was my boyfriend and that he was looking out for me, and that yes, I thought I was in a relationship with him and had said (over IRC and the phone) sexual things to him. And my boyfriend-as-an-adult looked at me doubtingly and said that my defense was shaky because I knowingly pursued a "relationship" with my rapist.

My only counter to that is saying, "I was 14." And I just kept saying it. Because I was 14. And it didn't matter if I ran naked through my rapists bedroom and curled up in his bed: I was 14. He was the adult and the person who needed to act like an adult and say no and not be a criminal and not engage in criminal behavior. This is on him, and it'll always be on him. It took me a hell of a long time to learn that, and on bad days I doubt it myself, but that's the truth. 

My boyfriend-as-an-adult's reaction is more common than people would like to think. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Carm_88 I agree. (no  offense @neurogirl intended at all)

I wish we wouldn’t get sidetracked into this tangent about “maturity” and/or the fundie culture when this subject comes up. 14 is too damn young!

[Cheetah]

This discussion makes my heart hurt.  My kids are currently 21, 17, and 14.  There's such a huge difference in maturity in those years.  A fourteen year old should not be having full-on sex at all IMO.  A little fumbling around with someone your own age or a year or two older, maybe.  Any 20 or 21 year old who is pursuing a relationship with a 14 year old does not have their best interests at heart. 

[neurogirl]

@Alice in Fundieland I agree! My post was just an attempt to show that 14 year olds are not “basically adults” like some people seemed to imply. But I totally agree! 14 is just too damn young!

[BernRul]

28 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

This discussion makes my heart hurt.  My kids are currently 21, 17, and 14.  There's such a huge difference in maturity in those years.  A fourteen year old should not be having full-on sex at all IMO.  A little fumbling around with someone your own age or a year or two older, maybe.  Any 20 or 21 year old who is pursuing a relationship with a 14 year old does not have their best interests at heart. 

Yeah, a 14 year old shouldn't be have PiV sex at all, period. I know a lot of 14 year olds do anyway, but at 14 they're barely teens. They're not emotionally ready for sex yet. Just because they do it doesn't mean they should. 

Having sex that young can have negative consequences on the female body. At 14, the body is stll maturing. A lot of people (including creepy men trying to justify their attraction to children) aruge that because the girl has had her period, it's natural to want to have sex with her. Um, no. Periods do not mean she's done sexually maturing. It's one of the beginning steps of sexual development, not the end. 14 year old girls who get pregnant are more likely to have complications in pregnancy and childbirth that can even end in death, as well as being more likely to have babies with health issues or stillborn. Sometimes these complications are permanent. This is something common in certain third world countries were child marriages are encouraged. It's a fact. If being sexually active at that age can mess up a girl's body so badly (and her potential offspring's) than why the fuck is it okay for that child to be having sex?

For the record, I'm not against age differences in adults. If a 35 year old and a 23 year old date, that's their own buisness. They might even be at similar  life experiences and maturity levels if the 23 year old is more mature for his/her age and the 35 year old developed more slowly. The key difference is that the younger person is still an adult, who has had experience living as an independent adult. But if one of them is a child and the other is an adult? That's rape. 

 

[Glasgowghirl]

Some 14 and 15 year olds may have relationships with old men/women and think they relationships were ok and don't see themselves as victims but when the other person is in their 20s and has more life and relationship experience then it is definitely easy for the older person to manipulate the  younger one.

The UK soap Emmerdale, is doing a grooming storyline where a teenager, I think he is 15, fancies his dad's new girlfriend, who is also his teacher. He tries to kiss her and she then kisses him back and is now giving him mixed signals, one minute being nice to him and calling him mature and making him think she wants him and the next minute calling him names. While it is fiction, it shows you how groomers work, they target young people who may already have a crush on them or have low self esteem and play mind games or make them feel like they are special.

[nausicaa]

18 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I once told a man who was my boyfriend as an adult the story about what had happened to me as a teenager. I tried to explain the situation, that I thought the guy who raped me was my boyfriend and that he was looking out for me, and that yes, I thought I was in a relationship with him and had said (over IRC and the phone) sexual things to him. And my boyfriend-as-an-adult looked at me doubtingly and said that my defense was shaky because I knowingly pursued a "relationship" with my rapist.

This is important to discuss. Yes, a lot of teenage girls are flattered to be getting attention, even sexual attention, from men. Even older men. Yes, older men (and anyone older than 18 is "older" when you're a teen and the years are like dog years) can seem worldly and sophisticated and teenagers may be attracted to that. Yes, teenagers can have sexual feelings and desires and toy with their newly discovered sexuality. And some people seem to have more of an intuitive instinct with that sexuality than others. 

However, the adult is still the adult. The relationship is still de facto imbalanced and the adult acting on sexual feelings is wrong. Full stop. Teenaged girls are not all-knowing Lolitas in full control of sexually and emotionally charged situations. I can't believe there are grown women who don't understand this.

I mean, fuck, I had one hell of a crush on Luke Perry when I was nine. By the logic of some people, this would have made it okay for him to pursue a relationship with me?

[Iamtheway]

 

6 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

Let's talk about that 2%-10% part.  I posted something about this in the thread about kavadouche, but I'll give a tl;dr here. 

You're assuming that 2%-10% of rape allegations being false means that 2%-10% of men accused of rape are innocent. This is not true. Only about 18% of false rape allegations actually name someone. The majority of false accusations are teenagers trying to get out of trouble and poor people desperate for health care. So in reality only .36% - 1.8% of rape allegations actually involve accusing an innocent person. 

 

Thank you! I have always thought that 2%-10% sounds way, way too high. The problem with false accusations is so small compared with the actual problem: The sexual assaults and the fact that so many of them never are reported at all. 

Sure there are cases of false accusations and there are parents that press charges against their kids will. But those are the exeptions (rare ones) and not a conclusion to run to when you here someone is accused of rape. 

5 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

Bold mine.  To you and others that have posted similar sentiments---that is absolutely not possible. Nowhere (in the USA at least) can a 15-year old ever have consensual sex with a 23-year old.  That is the law.  You can paint it any way you want--that the 15 year old "asked for it", wanted it, used birth control, whatever---it is still not legally possible for them to consent.

A legal line has to be drawn somewhere.

In Sweden the age of consent is 15. So a 15-year old here can definitly have consensual sex with a 23-year old. (She probably shouldn’t since 98% of the 23-year olds that would be interested in a 15-year old are really creepy, horribly imature or most likely both, but it wouldn’t be illegal.)

That has nothing to do with this case though or the people that jumped to the conclusion that the victim here consented without any evidence at all that she did and some pretty convincing evidence that she probably didn’t.

But there seems to be discussions about young people, sex, consent and age gaps going on as well so I just wanted to point out that there are posters here from countries that have lower ages of consent and that doesn’t think a 15-year old having sex is disgusting. As long as the 15-year old wants to have sex that is. Sexual assault is always disgusting.

[DundeeUnFundie]

Here's my question to the defenders: how can we excuse this guy for 'inappropriate touching' while simultaneously condemning Josh Duggar for also 'inappropriate touching'?

We can't.

She was a minor, and 5 years his junior. He was an adult. It is wrong for him to peruse a person who is considered by law to be a child.

In terms of relationships, I don't think a 5 year gap is a problem in the case of adults in a similar stage of life. It's when one person is in MIDDLE SCHOOL and the other is in UNIVERSITY when I see it as a problem. (don't know about home schooling, dont know if he was in uni, but those are the common ages to be in those levels of education)

There's so much I could say here but most people are saying it/have said it, so thank you. 

 

[Ali]

I am so disgusted by what I am reading in this thread.

There are many 14 year olds who likely think they are old enough to consent, but they are not. Teenagers typically think they know everything when they are still very naive and have a great deal to learn about the world. Any adult seeking a sexual relationship with someone so young is not looking for a healthy relationship. 

 

[HermioneSparrow]

4 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I'm sorry. I completely misunderstood your post. Anybody got a tool I can use to remove my foot from my mouth?

Hahaha, no worries!