Caleb Williams

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm reading a book called "Faraway".  The author is a middle aged man who was pulled into the world of sex trafficking by a fellow 14 year old who set him up with an older man who turned out to be a pimp.  I'm only a third of a way through it as it's a tough read, but this boy thought he was in love with this older guy  with whom he thought he was having consensual sex.  He only realized he was being groomed and set up when his "lover" started forcing him to have sex with lots of other older men.  Things got deeper and darker from there. His voice hadn't even changed yet.  

14, 15, 16.....these are kids.  And they aren't worldly enough or savvy enough to consent, especially when they are being manipulated and used by older, wiser pieces of shit who know exactly how to get what they want.

Again, Caleb may be completely innocent of the charges. But excusing statutory rape in general is wrong.  Flat-out.

Oh, and of course he's a friend of the Duggars.  Of course he is.

[apandaaries]

Well, this is a shitshow.

Not too long ago, a local high school teacher was charged with having sex with a 17 year old student. The teacher was on the younger side, mid-20s, and not horrible looking (on the outside). So an age gap, a person in position of authority taking advantage of his position to sexually abuse a minor, and a minor who trusted him and then had to face the wrath of her community by moving forward with charges.

  Our local paper's comments were filled with online assholes saying she was at least as at fault as he was, that she too bore responsibility for what transpired, that she was probably leading him on/tempting him, that this must be revenge for teen love gone wrong, that he hadn't really done anything that wrong, that relationships with huge age gaps used to be common, and that their cousin's friend's great-grandparents married at those ages and lived happily ever after so wtf are these snowflakes complaining about, etc. 

Never thought I'd see the day when FJ comments reached the lows of the comment section in a fairly uneducated population filled with rape apologists. But here we fucking are. 

[EmmieJ]

1 hour ago, MargaretElliott said:

Just a question to those saying it's normal for 14 year olds to have sex with men in their early 20s:

I have one child - a son.  If I had learned he was sexually active at age 14, I would have been quite upset.  He was still a boy, not a man.  I am not sure how exactly I would have handled the situation if his partner was another 14-year old, but it would have been addressed, hopefully without judgment but with the belief that both teens involved were too young for engaging in sexual behavior.

If I had learned the other person involved was in her early 20's, I would have been absolutely furious with that woman and would have insisted criminal charges be brought against her. 

What is up with (mostly) guys who are 20 years or older seeking out teenagers for sexual relationships?  That is seriously messed up.  There are plenty of adults out there that they can (and should!) seek out instead.  (I know what's up with those guys (and some women) - they don't want an adult.  They want a kid they can manipulate and control.  That's what's up and it is seriously fucked up.)

[VelociRapture]

Holy fucking shit. I definitely picked the wrong thread to look through today. How exceptionally disgusting and disappointing this conversation turned out to be. As the mother of a very little girl I can’t even begin to describe how horrified some of these comments have left me. 

And for those of you counting, the Duggars have at least four sex abuse scandals linked to them -the Josh molestations, Caleb, Tabitha Paine’s rapist husband, and the State Trooper Family friend who spoke with Josh about the molestations and was later sent to prison for child pornography. 

The Bateses have two known scandals linked to them - Tabitha’s rapist husband (Tabitha is Chad’s sister) and Gil working with the rest of the IBLP Board to conceal Bill Gothard’s sexual abuse. 

[WhoompThereItIs]

1 hour ago, Coconut Flan said:

Any time.  I'm sorry things took such a turn while I was sleeping.

There are a few posts in the "Duggars by the Dozens 35" thread on this topic. It's all on page 23 if you want to move them to this thread as well.

[AliceInFundyland]

I just watched a movie that illustrated how a girl could think she was completely involved and things can be consensual.

The movie was called Trust.

Fourteen year old is groomed by thirtyish male online. She meets him. He initially says he’s a teen. Gradually he confesses to being 21, then 25. She’s confused, but she loves him. They finally meet. She’s shocked. Even though she is “put off”—- She still likes him, he’s convinced her. They have sex. She is clearly upset after. Best friend realizes what happened and reports. Girl’s reaction is to be pissed off at everyone. She’s worried about the guy.

It isn’t until FBI man runs a DNA profile and shows her some photos of other girls he’d assaulted that she has the pivotal breakdown of, “Oh my god, these girls are like me. I’m not special. He raped me.”

Now I realize this is a movie and it wasn’t perfect. But I liked that one element.

That even after the police came in she was resistant. It wasn’t okay though. No matter what she had done before they met, or when they met. Man took advantage of girl.

 

[TuringMachine]

8 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

MY unpopular opinion:  this girl was "all in" for the relationship for a couple of years, got dumped, never got over him (may still love him - and Im not putting love in quotes because to a 14/15/16-year-old, it really is love), but due to the #metoo movement may have developed a different perspective. 

I realize I might be beating a dead horse at this point but I'm so mad I can't stop. 

We know almost nothing about what happened other than the fact that Caleb has been charged with having sex with a minor, but your opinion of rape victims is so fucked up you've already decided she's lying even though we don't even know if she accused anyone of anything. 

Seriously, Fuck you

[bal maiden]

On 10/13/2014 at 11:15 PM, mastercleaner said:

I don't know what it is about this kid, but he gives me the creeps.

Well, you had good instincts! 

[Fjrocks]

8 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I disagree. I know many 14-year-olds who have been fingered by older guys. 

MY unpopular opinion:  this girl was "all in" for the relationship for a couple of years, got dumped, never got over him (may still love him - and Im not putting love in quotes because to a 14/15/16-year-old, it really is love), but due to the #metoo movement may have developed a different perspective. 

   Since this was a reponse to something of mine you quoted I feel like I get a chance to respond now that I am available.

    Sincere question...why do you qualify her “love” by her age but you don’t  doubt she is capable of consent at her age?  

    Love (in various forms) is a very natural human emotion we all experience from Day One...to me, consent comes much later with brain development and emotional experience.  

[AliceInFundyland]

@SapphireSlytherin I would also like to point out that you condemn Josh Duggar at every possible opportunity. (Not that you are the only one. We do all have varying degrees of empathy there.) However, he has not been charged with a crime of nearly this degree. 

I really wonder if you understand the complexities of ATI and IBLP and Gothard and the culture behind the Duggars. I have never gotten the impression that you do and this leaves me even more certain.

[nausicaa]

I understand when discussing statutory rape (NOT what is being discussed in the Caleb Williams charges btw, just here in my post) things can enter grey areas. I dated a 19 year old while I was 16. It was consensual. It wasn't great for me and if I could do it again I wouldn't date him, but I wouldn't call it abusive. But sexually active 14 year olds with twenty something men? We're going to defend that? 

The vast majority of states don't allow 14 year olds to drive because their brains haven't developed enough. Same for voting and agreeing to medical procedures. But they can navigate the emotional and sexual dynamics of a relationship with a much older man. 

And in terms of empirical evidence: I know several young girls who were cool because they "dated" older guys. Twenty years on, they are consistently not doing well in life. No careers, multiple failed marriages, clearly low self esteem, oftentimes drug and alcohol issues. Most studies bear out my personal experience. What possible good comes from this?

And let's not bullshit. We're all grown ass women here.  We all know what twenty something year old dudes pursue high school freshmen. They are creeps none of us would have anything to do with. Stop bullshitting me. 

[RosyDaisy]

Ummm my point was I could not believe there is rape apologists here and that poster was disgusting about that and she has made xenophobic insensitive remarks about the immigrants. I was agreeing with you. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

I'm sorry. I completely misunderstood your post. [emoji54] Anybody got a tool I can use to remove my foot from my mouth?[emoji853]

[SilverBeach]

3 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Again, the norm in my group was to have very early sex.

What group was this? Sounds like some type of cult.

[nausicaa]

3 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Grown men do not date 14-year-old girls without an agenda. Period. Full stop. And having sex with them, in any form, is rape. And it's wrong. And that person is a criminal.

I believe several of the defenders on here are not in a place to deal with the truth of this.

I've wanted to say this for a while now, but always felt it was overstepping. I can't shut my mouth anymore. Some of the commenters defending very young girls having sex with older men also make comments about having relationship issues for themselves and members of their families in other threads. 

Isn't there a (strong) possibility that there is a connection between a culture of such young sexual activity and issues later on? And isn't there a possibility of some virulent sexism in said culture in which very young girls are sexualized and must find value and attention through sex with much older men rather than through academic or extracurricular accomplishments?

And just because it happens in certain sub-cultures doesn't make it okay. The American South has a historical culture of racism against black people. Doesn't mean my Virginia-dwelling ass just shrugs it off and passively watches the fucking cross get lit on someone's lawn. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

Yeah, listening to a women in her what 50s alternate between rape apologist and overgrown mean girl to Jill Duggar just leaves me cold. "Oh my gosh guys, did you see what Jill is wearing!? And what is up with that side braid?! oh my gosh, oh my gosh!" Just to reiterate, no one connected to the victim, least of all the victim herself has ever suggested it could have been consensual, so why, why, why the hell are you?!  

[formergothardite]

43 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Tabitha’s rapist husband (Tabitha is Chad’s sister) and Gil working with the rest of the IBLP Board to conceal Bill Gothard’s sexual abuse. 

Erin's father in law is also accused of treating a sexual abuse victim by telling her to drink some water and eat a protein bar. 

Abuse is rampant in these sort patriarchal systems. 

Men who pursue teen girls don't typically have the best interest of those girls in mind. And to create an entire narrative where the teen girl is bitter and lying to get back at the poor guy is just disgusting. What is wrong with people?! 

 

[BernRul]

Wow, I'm late to this shit show but I need to chime in. 

First, @singsingsing you are absolutely right. I feel you, and I'm sorry you're getting so frustrated. Everything you said needed to be said. 

I don't care how mature anyone thinks they were at 14, no 14 year old girl is mature enough to be penetrated by a man in his 20s. A 19 year old who has sex with a 17 year old is one thing. A 23 year old who has sex with a 14 year old is a predator, no question. I'm 27. The idea of being with a 16 year old makes me want to throw up, because we are at two totally different phases of life (to borrow the Duggars term). An adult who seeks out a teen is a rapist, because they are taking advantage. That poor teen is not emotionally ready for an adult relationship and they are absolutely being manipulated. 

@SapphireSlytherin I was polite to you even after you made bigoted, racist comments about my family because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But right now you are contributing to rape culture by blaming the victim with no evidence. I have to echo the others: seriously, what the fuck? 

[nickelodeon]

Hooooly shit this thread went weird places.

Y'all are on a forum that has extensively discussed the Gothard coverup, Tool O'Ween, Joshgate, Smortongate, Bro-Garygate, and Willisgate and now all of a sudden you just can't fathom the idea of a fundie asshole raping a kid? Seriously?

[Lisafer]

53 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

I realize I might be beating a dead horse at this point but I'm so mad I can't stop. 

We know almost nothing about what happened other than the fact that Caleb has been charged with having sex with a minor, but your opinion of rape victims is so fucked up you've already decided she's lying even though we don't even know if she accused anyone of anything. 

Seriously, Fuck you

Preach it! The previous poster's stated opinions are appalling. An immediate leap to victim-blaming a child has no excuse. I'm incoherent; I keep typing and retyping, but the words are ragey and jumbled.

And @BernRul, I saw the thread to which you are referring, and I concur with your sentiments. 

[RosyDaisy]

It's normal for 20-something men to have sex with 13/14 year old girls? NAW, NAW, HAIL NAW!!! It's sick and disgusting! So are the crazy ass people who believe that it is. Y'all are the reason victims don't come forward. I never thought I would see this bullshit posted here. WTF?!!

[Sky with diamonds]

I am appalled. In more ways than one.

[BachelorToTheRapture]

I'm so disgusted to see some of this here. Even if a 14 or 15 year old is not under the authority of a 20+ year old man there is a HUGE power difference. A kid that age is a CHILD. They cannot drive or make their own medical decisions. They can't miss school without parental permission. They can't go on a field trip without a permission slip. A 20 year old is legally an adult. There is a huge developmental difference between the two ages, which is why our society allows the 20 year old to make their own decisions while the 15 year old cannot. 

I can't get past that some posters here believe that a relationship with that kind of power differential is in any way acceptable.

[BernRul]

4 minutes ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

I'm so disgusted to see some of this here. Even if a 14 or 15 year old is not under the authority of a 20+ year old man there is a HUGE power difference. A kid that age is a CHILD. They cannot drive or make their own medical decisions. They can't miss school without parental permission. They can't go on a field trip without a permission slip. A 20 year old is legally an adult. There is a huge developmental difference between the two ages, which is why our society allows the 20 year old to make their own decisions while the 15 year old cannot. 

I can't get past that some posters here believe that a relationship with that kind of power differential is in any way acceptable.

Exactly! The power difference is so wide that it can't be anything other than rape. Even if that 14 year old thought they were consenting, they are just too powerless when compared to a mid 20s adult. 

[adidas]

2 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Any time.  I'm sorry things took such a turn while I was sleeping.

Absolutely not your fault at all and no need for you to apologise!!

[VelociRapture]

28 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Erin's father in law is also accused of treating a sexual abuse victim by telling her to drink some water and eat a protein bar. 

Abuse is rampant in these sort patriarchal systems. 

Men who pursue teen girls don't typically have the best interest of those girls in mind. And to create an entire narrative where the teen girl is bitter and lying to get back at the poor guy is just disgusting. What is wrong with people?! 

 

Yes! Dr. Paine is also a member of the IBLP Board who helped conceal the abuse. The protein bar story @formergothardite mentioned was his response to one of Gothard’s victims who spoke with him about her abuse. Chad isn’t responsible for his father’s actions or inactions and neither is Erin, but the knowledge that they both have family members involved in concealing abuse or so hage commited sexual assault definitely makes me uneasy about them - especially since they appear to still have relationships with those people. 

So the Bateses have (at least) two known abuse scandals linked to them, but they have (at least) three people involved in those scandals linked to the family.