Caleb Williams

[QuiverDance]

37 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't know if you have read Pioneer Girl: The Annotated Autobiography, but if you love the Little House books I highly recommend it. For me I found it interesting that Ma comes off as so much nice in Laura's original writings while Pa comes off as being worse. Looking at it from an adult perspective now I'm not sure how Ma didn't go insane. Pa was constantly uprooting their lives to dash after another dream he had. He made terrible life choices. 

I haven't.  I actually own the book and haven't actually ever read it.  I always felt that way about Pa when reading the original series.  WHY would you keep uprooting your reluctant wife and very young children in such a dangerous way?  It was very selfish and irresponsible!  And then to accept your daughter's earnings to support your family.  It always seemed so awful!  Then again, my own father had a joint checking account with his father until he was married to my mom!  (My dad was the oldest of 9...) 

7 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I think my biggest almost was being in a bar with a group of friends having sailors buying us shots after shots and drinks after drinks. We were drunk off our ass and they were trying to get our already drunk asses onto their boat. One of my friends sobered up quickly when she realized that they were asking what our plan was after the bar. The bouncers sensed our distress as she tried to keep us altogether and kicked them out. We were all getting freaked out and walked quickly out of the bar. The sober friend later said that they were in the alley waiting for us, but we waited until closing time to leave, and disappeared into a crowd of guys. 

Looking back on it now terrifies me, so much could have gone wrong. 

OMG this totally happened to me and a friend when we were 18ish.  

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

48 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't know if you have read Pioneer Girl: The Annotated Autobiography, but if you love the Little House books I highly recommend it. For me I found it interesting that Ma comes off as so much nice in Laura's original writings while Pa comes off as being worse. Looking at it from an adult perspective now I'm not sure how Ma didn't go insane. Pa was constantly uprooting their lives to dash after another dream he had. He made terrible life choices. 

I agree so much - he was a terrible husband and father and she was the rock that held that family together.

 

[QuiverDance]

49 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't know if you have read Pioneer Girl: The Annotated Autobiography, but if you love the Little House books I highly recommend it. For me I found it interesting that Ma comes off as so much nice in Laura's original writings while Pa comes off as being worse. Looking at it from an adult perspective now I'm not sure how Ma didn't go insane. Pa was constantly uprooting their lives to dash after another dream he had. He made terrible life choices. 

Maybe Mrs. Brewster was based on Ma.

 

[Sky with diamonds]

18 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I think my biggest almost was being in a bar with a group of friends having sailors buying us shots after shots and drinks after drinks. We were drunk off our ass and they were trying to get our already drunk asses onto their boat. One of my friends sobered up quickly when she realized that they were asking what our plan was after the bar. The bouncers sensed our distress as she tried to keep us altogether and kicked them out. We were all getting freaked out and walked quickly out of the bar. The sober friend later said that they were in the alley waiting for us, but we waited until closing time to leave, and disappeared into a crowd of guys. 

Looking back on it now terrifies me, so much could have gone wrong. 

I'm so glad you and your friends ended up safe *hugs*.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

40 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree so much - he was a terrible husband and father and she was the rock that held that family together.

 

He wasn’t terrible exactly. If he had been able to use his creative skills professionally instead of stumbling around trying to be a farmer, he could have been very successful. He was a very kind and encouraging husband and father, especially for his time. Laura said of him, “Pa was no business man. He was a hunter and trapper, a musician and poet.”

[HarryPotterFan]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I'm not sure how Ma didn't go insane. Pa was constantly uprooting their lives to dash after another dream he had. He made terrible life choices. 

Wait, are we talking about the Dullards?

[Lurky]

The character of "Pa Ingalls" in the Little House book always seemed forced to me - presented as this strong leader, when he was a *terrible*, massively irresponsible idiot, who knew nothing about farming, but kept uprooting his family to follow his own dreams.  Then I read Pioneer Girl, and in LIW's real life, not only was it her mother who kept the family together, working outside the home etc, but also Laura was working outside the home at a very young age.  Loads of episodes IRL where Ma was the one who rescued a situation, and was wise, were repurposed in the LH books to be Pa to make him look better.   And the parts in the LH books where Laura wants to go and work at sewing, and her mother's not sure - that's total wishful thinking, as IRL Laura was living and working in a hotel much younger than her fictional counterpart was persuading her mother it was ok to go and sew shirts.

Her father followed one get-rich-quick scheme after another, refused to listen to any advice, and only stopped living hand-to-mouth when his wife finally convinced him to stay put in "Silver Lake".  The family went through periods of literal starvation because he was too stubborn to follow advice - and things like going to "settle" (steal land) in Indian Territory, then act shocked when they were kicked off, were criminally stupid.

(I adore my annotated Pioneer Girl, with so much research, photos, maps and records of everything Laura mentions.  It's a gorgeous object and I am so glad I blew some cash on it)

[HerNameIsBuffy]

57 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

He wasn’t terrible exactly. If he had been able to use his creative skills professionally instead of stumbling around trying to be a farmer, he could have been very successful. He was a very kind and encouraging husband and father, especially for his time. Laura said of him, “Pa was no business man. He was a hunter and trapper, a musician and poet.”

irl he was, Imo.  they booked it out of town more than once as he skipped out on debts.

[Aine]

12 hours ago, zee_four said:

Just wanted to say I'm Polynesian/Pacific Islander, my dad is 100% kanaka maoli, Native Hawai'ian, hooray for being indigenous!

I am a proud Wiradjuri and Barkindji woman ❤️ I miss being on country with every shred of my being and it is the most visceral feeling of something missing that I ever experience- even greater than the grief following profound and immense losses of loved ones. 

May we continue to survive despite every challenge and attempt to make us disappear, and may we continue to hold and share the knowledge of our peoples ✊

[Lisafer]

3 hours ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

I remember thinking it was odd that he talked to her dad and not her, that she seemed so unsure, but accepted it because he saved her from a bad situation, that he was an adult and she truly was not when they were first together. She even mentions that she thought of him as Pa's friend at first. But when I was a kid I thought it was okay because she eventually came around and loved him. Now I dont think that's okay at all, and would never consider reading or recommending these books to a child unless the kid and I were both ready for a LOT of commentary about how things are different now.

Fortunately the courtship happens in a much later book; there's several before it. The earlier ones are more at a child's level, and the content becomes more mature in the later books. 

[VVV]

5 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Maybe Mrs. Brewster was based on Ma.

 

No.

Mrs. Brewster was based on Mrs. Bouchie, the real name of the family that Laura boarded with when she was teaching. And that was a terrible, awful, dangerous situation, much worse than she made it out to be in the book, and that was bad enough.

[BachelorToTheRapture]

2 hours ago, Lisafer said:

Fortunately the courtship happens in a much later book; there's several before it. The earlier ones are more at a child's level, and the content becomes more mature in the later books. 

If the kids were anything like me they'd want to read them all once they started. Plus if I were to read them I'd want to be able to have discussions about the racism in the books, and how society is still learning what is okay as far as race, and other topics that would likely come up ( I haven't read the books in a long time, so I dont remember any questionable content not related to race or their courtship, but it wouldn't surprise me to find something)

[AliceInFundyland]

Although I am aware of all of this, I’m not sure I have read the annotated autobiography. My library doesn’t have it and so I am thinking not. I have read all other things Wilder.

I have Amazon gift credit from Christmas. What an excellent hardback purchase idea. Yippee! 

[formergothardite]

12 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

He wasn’t terrible exactly. If he had been able to use his creative skills professionally instead of stumbling around trying to be a farmer, he could have been very successful. He was a very kind and encouraging husband and father, especially for his time. Laura said of him, “Pa was no business man. He was a hunter and trapper, a musician and poet.”

He wasn't though. The Pa in the books, yes, was kind of a fun guy. The Pa in real life was selfish, made terrible life choices with very little thought to how it was going to impact his family. Pa in real life let is family starve, let them go with so little clothing they had to drop out of school, put them up to live in a dangerous hotel where people were getting murdered and made them pack up to flee in the night so he could escape all his debts. They would gain some stability, Pa would get bored or make a bad decision and then he would uproot them with little thought to if they would even have food. 

If Pa seems like the fun kind one, it is only because Ma spent her life stressing over how to fucking keep her kids fed! All while she was pregnant and/or dealing with the loss of a child. Ma was amazing. 

Another book that has parts that didn't age well is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I had just handed it to my daughter to read and she came to ask me why wars were only ugly when women got involved. And the whole treatment of Susan at the end of the series is awful IMO. Her main "sins" seem to be that she grew up to like make up, pretty clothes and no longer talking about that time she got to grow up in a magical world and be a queen and then suddenly got transported back to just being a kid.  

[Lisafer]

42 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

He wasn't though. The Pa in the books, yes, was kind of a fun guy. The Pa in real life was selfish, made terrible life choices with very little thought to how it was going to impact his family. Pa in real life let is family starve, let them go with so little clothing they had to drop out of school, put them up to live in a dangerous hotel where people were getting murdered and made them pack up to flee in the night so he could escape all his debts. They would gain some stability, Pa would get bored or make a bad decision and then he would uproot them with little thought to if they would even have food. 

If Pa seems like the fun kind one, it is only because Ma spent her life stressing over how to fucking keep her kids fed! All while she was pregnant and/or dealing with the loss of a child. Ma was amazing. 

Another book that has parts that didn't age well is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I had just handed it to my daughter to read and she came to ask me why wars were only ugly when women got involved. And the whole treatment of Susan at the end of the series is awful IMO. Her main "sins" seem to be that she grew up to like make up, pretty clothes and no longer talking about that time she got to grow up in a magical world and be a queen and then suddenly got transported back to just being a kid.  

Oh my, don't you get me started on how messed-up The Last Battle is! And CS Lewis was known to be sexist: his friend Dorothy Sayers, a wonderful author, called him out on it IIRC.

[Lurky]

49 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

And the whole treatment of Susan at the end of the series is awful IMO

Have you read the Neil Gaiman story, The problem of Susan?  It's really strong, and it talks about what an awful God Aslan was.  Susan's "sins" were liking makeup, clothes, parties - her punishment was so many members of her family, and her friends, dying in a train crash, while she was the only one left behind.  I'd always hated the way she was portrayed (and the LB is despicable in so many ways) so I was YES! throughout the story.

And googling the name to be sure, I've just seen it's just been graphic-novelised:

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/564074/the-problem-of-susan-and-other-stories-by-neil-gaiman/9781506705118/

 

[Nomorethanfour]

Don't forget Dr. Seuss. He was a complete asshole. He cheated on his wife. He told her he wanted a divorce and she killed herself because he was the love of her life.

[Lisafer]

@Lurky remember that chilling moment in The Problem of Susan where the elderly Susan quietly points out that somebody had to identify the bodies? Herself. Can you imagine, after that train wreck? Really made Clive Staples look like a dipshit. 

[Audrey2]

16 hours ago, formergothardite said:

For me I found it interesting that Ma comes off as so much nice in Laura's original writings while Pa comes off as being worse. Looking at it from an adult perspective now I'm not sure how Ma didn't go insane. Pa was constantly uprooting their lives to dash after another dream he had. He made terrible life choices. 

Why does this sound familiar? Hmmm... Derick Dillard?

14 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Wait, are we talking about the Dullards?

Great minds think alike! That's what I get for being a page behind and commenting on it before I finish.

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, Lisafer said:

@Lurky remember that chilling moment in The Problem of Susan where the elderly Susan quietly points out that somebody had to identify the bodies? Herself. Can you imagine, after that train wreck? Really made Clive Staples look like a dipshit. 

That part was so awful - but it's right there in the Narnia books, that once someone has strayed from the path even a teeny tiny bit, they are doomed forever.  Ugh, I hated that kind of theology so much, but it's right in line with Fundy Christianity - if every sin carries the same weight, and you've already, I dunno, sworn, or lied, or disrespected a parent, why not go all out, as you're doomed anyway.

[Rachel333]

38 minutes ago, Lurky said:

That part was so awful - but it's right there in the Narnia books, that once someone has strayed from the path even a teeny tiny bit, they are doomed forever.  Ugh, I hated that kind of theology so much, but it's right in line with Fundy Christianity - if every sin carries the same weight, and you've already, I dunno, sworn, or lied, or disrespected a parent, why not go all out, as you're doomed anyway.

That message really isn't in the books! I hate the way Susan is treated but she isn't supposed to be doomed forever. And in the same book there's the character of Emeth, who fundies dislike because Lewis is basically saying you don't have to be Christian to go to Heaven.

[formergothardite]

5 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

And in the same book there's the character of Emeth, who fundies dislike because Lewis is basically saying you don't have to be Christian to go to Heaven.

I had forgotten about that. He was a devoted follower of another religion and he ended up in heaven.

[VelociRapture]

26 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

That message really isn't in the books! I hate the way Susan is treated but she isn't supposed to be doomed forever. And in the same book there's the character of Emeth, who fundies dislike because Lewis is basically saying you don't have to be Christian to go to Heaven.

I agree, but I still think it was shitty that Lewis punishes Susan for, basically, growing up. I read once that Lewis had no use for female characters unless they were children, mothers, or grandmothers. I feel like his treatment of Susan falls into that pretty well. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

38 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

That message really isn't in the books! I hate the way Susan is treated but she isn't supposed to be doomed forever. And in the same book there's the character of Emeth, who fundies dislike because Lewis is basically saying you don't have to be Christian to go to Heaven.

Yes, but that's because you have to be religious, otherwise you're lost. No room for agnostics never mind atheists. Being a wonderful person comes second to be a believer in a god, any god. And I have a big problem with that. The underlying idea that religions have a monopoly over ethics is ludicrous, but to be expected from Lewis.

[Rachel333]

Lewis had a lot of faults and even though I do love the Narnia books I have no problem criticizing them. Lewis was definitely not, however, a fundie.

He was not a Biblical literalist (he believed that some stories, like the story of Jonah, were meant figuratively), and he was not opposed to the idea of evolution. He wrote,

Quote

Just as my belief in my own immortal & rational soul does not oblige or qualify me to hold a particular theory of the pre-natal history of my embryo, so my belief that Men in general have immortal & rational souls does not oblige or qualify me to hold a theory of their pre-human organic history-if they have one.

One of Lewis's two stepsons, David Gresham, actually converted from Christianity to Orthodox Judaism (he has Jewish ancestry) while living with Lewis and Lewis went to the effort of helping him find Kosher food in 1950's England.

He also did not intend the Narnia books as a strict allegory and wanted readers to also be able to enjoy them just for the story.

Quote

Some people seem to think that I began by asking myself how I could say something about Christianity to children; then fixed on the fairy tale as an instrument, then collected information about child psychology and decided what age group I’d write for; then drew up a list of basic Christian truths and hammered out 'allegories' to embody them. This is all pure moonshine. I couldn’t write in that way. It all began with images; a faun carrying an umbrella, a queen on a sledge, a magnificent lion. At first there wasn't anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2005/12/why-narnia-isn-t-just-a-christian-allegory.html

He also included many elements of non-Christian mythology in the stories, which is one reason many fundies don't allow their children to read his books.