Caleb Williams

[Carm_88]

I'm still a little sad that there were rape apologists, but the quick calling out and the love that has been shown since then, has been fantastic. 

[Lurky]

23 hours ago, Nomorethanfour said:

I'm just now catching up, but were people actually trying to defend Toby Willis? That is beyond sick. I hope all of these abusers are given the maximum punishment.

Yeah, that thread also was a shitshow.  Basically, whenever there's a thread with rape/abuse allegations, there are a small number of posters who will wrap themselves in knots to come up with justifications for why this Fundy man couldn't possibly be guilty, and write horrifying fanfic about how there are probably eleventy other options than him being an abusive fuck.  It's especially nasty, because as with this case, these fanfics are written with no knowledge of who the victims were - like SapphireSlytherin did here.

It makes me angry every time, and especially the handslapping about how we all have a duty to assume "innocent until proved guilty" because not only are we not a court of law, it's also saying we have to assume the victims are liars until proved innocent - and not just liars, but really nasty people trying to destroy an innocent man's life, and their whole families, for shits and giggles.  And then once the abusers are found guilty, these FJers don't come back to apologise, or they might talk about how they want to know what the horrible details are, so they can decide if it was *really* abuse.  With Toby Willis, there were various suggestions about how maybe a young child had misremembered things, and been coached and so on, or maybe things were taken out of context.  Vile.

ETA As others have said, I always really appreciate that these rape apologists always get a very, very robust push back, and are clearly a minority here.

As for SS, I don't doubt she's still around, as I've always wondered if she has socks (ETA or was a sock, I guess).  I'm sure we'll see that distinctive "I know everything about everything/have traveled everywhere in the world"/"I did whatever stupid thing is being discussed, and it was fine" - but I hope if she comes back she leaves the "expert about every single thing English" behind.

[Bad Wolf]

A 15 year old may believe that they're mature enough to be involved with an older person, and may defend their choice. But, they're really not, and that's why we need the statutory rape laws, to protect them from themselves.

[Jellybean]

I think that the trouble with being a teen (from my own experience only) is that by that point I’d been alive for 100% of my life and it seemed pretty long to me, especially given how much I’d changed physically and mentally in that time. I was ‘old’ for my age in terms of responsibilities and outlook and pretty curvy from before my mid-teens. But as others have said, I wasn’t able to see my own limitations because I hadn’t finished developing and certainly hadn’t had much experience in relationships, especially those with the kind of power difference that can be evident when there’s such an age gap. I might have ‘wanted it’ or even pursued it but I didn’t have the resources to be able to hold my own against an adult, or to be able to get out of any dangerous, abusive, or predatory situations that might have resulted.

Like many of you, I'm sad that it brought out so much ugliness, but I’m so grateful to all those who have been thoughtful and eloquent in their pushback, and to all those who have shared their own experiences. 

[EmmieJ]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 

@Kailash your post just reminded me of all the other times SS has been deliberately obstreperous and hidebound in her thinking.   She gives people over 50 a bad name.  Not everyone over 50 thinks or behaves like her by any means, as plenty of our other older members demonstrate every day.  And, FTR, I am 63.

I'm in my mid 50's.  It's been awhile but there were a couple times when I got schooled here on FJ.  It was unpleasant, but deserved.  I took my lumps, learned something and everyone moved on.  May I never become so hidebound that I can't admit maybe I'm wrong sometimes.

[Jellybean]

1 hour ago, EmmieJ said:

I'm in my mid 50's.  It's been awhile but there were a couple times when I got schooled here on FJ.  It was unpleasant, but deserved.  I took my lumps, learned something and everyone moved on.  May I never become so hidebound that I can't admit maybe I'm wrong sometimes.

It’s one of my favourite things about FJ (aside from thread drift) - the opportunity to be made uncomfortable because people are challenging ideas or beliefs that I hold. Sometimes it’s even more uncomfortable because I’m horribly wrong in public here and get called out, but as @EmmieJ said, I take my lumps, think about it, try to understand, apologise, and try to be better as a result of it.

[Glasgowghirl]

Some of the earlier posts on here definitely angered me, people decided without knowing the details that the woman had now made the claims to get back at him and that she wanted it. That blaming is why a lot of victims don't come forward. 

While people do make false accusations, we don't know the full story just now. While I believe that people accused of these crimes should be presumed innocent until proven guilty that doesn't mean we shame the people reporting the crimes.

 

[justodd]

49 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Some of the earlier posts on here definitely angered me, people decided without knowing the details that the woman had now made the claims to get back at him and that she wanted it. That blaming is why a lot of victims don't come forward. 

While people do make false accusations, we don't know the full story just now. While I believe that people accused of these crimes should be presumed innocent until proven guilty that doesn't mean we shame the people reporting the crimes.

 

The thing that gets me so angry about the rush to assume someone’s making a false accusation is that yeah, studies have shown something like 9% of accusations are false, but on what planet does it make sense to just blindly assume someone is lying when over ninety percent of accusations are legitimate? The whole thing just screams of gross misogyny and victim blaming from every angle - especially since it’s almost never phrased in terms of “we don’t know all the facts, so we should consider him innocent until proven guilty,” but more like “she’s probably a lying tramp who totally wanted it.” One of those options allows for both parties to be treated with compassion. The other all but guarantees the most innocent party will be further traumatized. 

Still disappointed in all the people who showed their ass all over this thread (who knew anti-choice slut shamers would also be rape apologists?), but also quite impressed with everyone who refused to let it go unchallenged, and even more so with the people who had the humility to admit they may have been wrong and had re-evaluated their stance after everyone else’s words. It takes a big person to admit something like that, and I have nothing but respect for all of you. 

[Glasgowghirl]

2 minutes ago, justodd said:

The thing that gets me so angry about the rush to assume someone’s making a false accusation is that yeah, studies have shown something like 9% of accusations are false, but on what planet does it make sense to just blindly assume someone is lying when over ninety percent of accusations are legitimate? The whole thing just screams of gross misogyny and victim blaming from every angle - especially since it’s almost never phrased in terms of “we don’t know all the facts, so we should consider him innocent until proven guilty,” but more like “she’s probably a lying tramp who totally wanted it.” One of those options allows for both parties to be treated with compassion. The other all but guarantees the most innocent party will be further traumatized. 

Still disappointed in all the people who showed their ass all over this thread (who knew anti-choice slut shamers would also be rape apologists?), but also quite impressed with everyone who refused to let it go unchallenged, 

While some people may not view the relationships they had young with older people as abusive and view the person as a rapist's, that may well be the case and they were probably lucky that their relationships didn't turn out that way.

A lot of teens were manipulated and groomed and had abusive relationships, even those over the age of consent can be groomed but those in early teens are most at risk.

 

[Lurker]

What I really found shocking is not only that there were rape apologists, but how defiant and righteous they were about their beliefs. 

 

[justodd]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

While some people may not view the relationships they had young with older people as abusive and view the person as a rapist's, that may well be the case and they were probably lucky that their relationships didn't turn out that way.

A lot of teens were manipulated and groomed and had abusive relationships, even those over the age of consent can be groomed but those in early teens are most at risk.

 

Yes...though I’m kinda confused why this is in response to my post, since I didn’t really say anything about that.  

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Not everyone over 50 thinks or behaves like her by any means, as plenty of our other older members demonstrate every day.  And, FTR, I am 63.

I too am 63 cand have absolutely nothing in common with that member.

[Kailash]

15 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I too am 63 cand have absolutely nothing in common with that member.

I ddn’t think everyone her age or older thinks those terrible things. SS always stood out but not for good reasons.

[nastyhobbitses]

7 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

A 15 year old may believe that they're mature enough to be involved with an older person, and may defend their choice. But, they're really not, and that's why we need the statutory rape laws, to protect them from themselves.

This. Whenever people try to pull that "oh, but what if they want it?" bullshit, I think a good response is "when I was 5 I wanted to drive a car. Where was my license?"

[Kittikatz]

I was another "early bloomer" who got tall and busty by age 11. I easily looked old enough to go into bars/buy liquor without being carded by the time I was 12 or 13 - especially given the conservative clothes I wore to blend in with my group. I remember feeling mortally offended that I was getting ma'amed by a cute older boy when I was just 16 ?. Mentally, I was pretty mature - I had to be given the chaos and general weirdness of my family. That said, looking back is painful. I thought I was being clever and grown up, but I did so many stupid/poorly thought out things that now I just have to cringe. I definitely took some hits over my poor choices (and actually managed to learn from a few of them), but any or all of these adult choices could so easily have landed me in a lot more trouble or damaged me worse than I currently am. It's unfortunate, but there is definitely a period of time where young people don't logic in the same way as adults, and the laws and adults in proximity to those young people need to step up to protect them from themselves. 

[Irishy]

This has been an upsetting thread to read. Reminds me of a recent rape case in Ireland where the accused, two famous rugby players were found not guilty. It was outrageous and the day after the verdict, my daughter and I and thousands of completely awesome women and men gathered in Dublin to protest. Chanting ‘I Believe Her’ in the rain and stopping traffic. Thousands of people gathered with just 24 hours notice. I blubbed my way through it that day because I was so overwhelmed by the power of support for that poor woman. 

Reading this thread has been kind of like that. 

Its important to remember however, that many of us are at different stages on our journey through feminism. Misogyny and victim blaming is so ingrained in all of us, it’s often hard to see another perspective. I admire the posters that held their hands up and admitted they’d judged hastily and had come to see the situation differently. @Shadoewolf You have had loads of opportunities to do this. I hope this becomes an opportunity for reflection once your defensiveness dies down.

Threads like these are so important for lurkers and posters alike to evaluate their own internalised views and sexism. Like the recent discussion on late term abortion. No matter how woke we think we are, we all still have plenty to learn, relative to where we are on our journeys.

[fundiesfordays]

I have been on break from FJ for a while. I saw the news headline about Caleb over the holidays and decided to come back and see what was going on with that situation.

Wow...

I too was an early bloomer and a mature teenager. Although I was mature, I was sheltered from sexual understanding and therefore I ended up in situations I wasn't prepared for or understood, even though the boys were my age. It wasn't until the #metoo movement that I realized I was sexually assaulted. I never talked to anyone about it. I'm certain if people knew what happened, I would've been blamed for it and told I was asking for it because I was hormonal and although I said "no" at first, I eventually complied. I stayed with that boyfriend for a couple of months afterwards and allowed it to continue. Although I was mature enough to fully understand what it took to run a household, pay bills, prepare for college, etc., I was not capable of making informed sexual decisions and I was taken advantage of. I was damaged and I didn't even know it.

That realization has put me in an uncomfortable place and I'm still coping. This thread has been quite triggering. Yet I am still very glad I read it. It has given me hope to see women of all ages uniting against rape culture. We have to rise up. We can't sit back and ignore it. Maybe we have in the past. We have all made mistakes. I have said here before that I was brought up with some pretty messed up ideas. All I can do now is try harder to be better. Rape culture is evil and we must speak louder and louder until we drown out apologists.

[ViolaSebastian]

14 hours ago, justodd said:

The thing that gets me so angry about the rush to assume someone’s making a false accusation is that yeah, studies have shown something like 9% of accusations are false, but on what planet does it make sense to just blindly assume someone is lying when over ninety percent of accusations are legitimate? The whole thing just screams of gross misogyny and victim blaming from every angle - especially since it’s almost never phrased in terms of “we don’t know all the facts, so we should consider him innocent until proven guilty,” but more like “she’s probably a lying tramp who totally wanted it.” One of those options allows for both parties to be treated with compassion. The other all but guarantees the most innocent party will be further traumatized. 

Still disappointed in all the people who showed their ass all over this thread (who knew anti-choice slut shamers would also be rape apologists?), but also quite impressed with everyone who refused to let it go unchallenged, and even more so with the people who had the humility to admit they may have been wrong and had re-evaluated their stance after everyone else’s words. It takes a big person to admit something like that, and I have nothing but respect for all of you. 

To add on to this, this Caleb guy is a Duggar orbiter and into Fundamentalism. After all the sex scandals and sex crimes that this forum has watched go down in the fundie universe, some people are still thinking that this one dude was probably innocent and the victim made it up. Excuse me, what?? We know that fundamentalism is rife with sexual offenders and that it’s a system that creates them, gives them easy access to vulnerable people, gives them a way to hide their crimes, and prevents them from being brought to justice. Why on earth would some people suddenly think that Caleb is somehow special and this situation was a false accusation? It makes zero sense. 

[Palimpsest]

Link to Community Discussion thread here:

 

[Nomorethanfour]

I read that Celeb' s brother was arrested for hitting a child with a wooden dowel and leaving bruises. Nice family, their mother must be so proud.

[zee_four]

Yeah in my early 20s I might have sounded like Shadoewolfs SIL. Only as I've gotten older I can see these relationships were NOT healthy. I became a hard drug user (clean 3 years in June for the longest stretch since high school), found myself as the side piece of a married man 20 years older than me who had known me as a child and was my little brothers ski coach (I was legal, 20, when the 3 year long affair started but our co workers found out and I became the evil Jezebel somehow) and dont have custody of my own child because I had an abusive relationship with his father. My entire life screams, product of unhealthy relationships.

When I first went to college on a track scholarship to one if the most liberal Ivies, my classmates seemed to encourage my past experiences as healthy and empowering without knowing what really happened. I 100% believe that women can be sexually empowered and enjoying and asserting sex shouldnt make you guilty. But a teenage girl involved with older adult men is a totally different situation, I just got fed the line it wasn't and I made myself believe it.

It's taken a long time to realize, no they weren't healthy, while still trying to empower myself today as I try to form healthier relationships. Every day is a new journey and having discussions like this definitely helps.

Thanks again!!

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I can’t post a link with my phone so here’s a screenshot.  I don’t know if this guy is fundy or not but what a messed up family!  I wish they wouldn’t link Jana to these asshats.

Spoiler

 

[SweetJuly]

I just wish they would leave Jana out of this!

[Coconut Flan]

They created the original rumor of her with Caleb and now perpetuate it.  They're ridiculous.

[SadieJane]

   I just want to comment about the "She has a degree in Psych." I'm a psych nurse.  My specialty is adolescence and I get suicidal teenagers, and A LARGE AMOUNT of them have been SEXUALLY ASSAULTED by an ADULT, who they had considered a boyfriend/girlfriend. I see this every single day. There is a reason its illegal for minors to have sexual relations with adults. They do not have the mental maturity to process what is happening.  This comes with age, no matter how "mature" they seem to you.  It kills me that someone even suggested posting a personal conversation with someone who has been through this, no matter how they cope with it. 

 

   Stop rationalizing statutory rape. It is not okay. It is never okay.

   I love my job and my patients, but I hear the stories every day, and I wish to god that no one would ever have to go through what they are going through. These are people's babies. These are peoples beloved nieces, nephews, cousins, siblings. They need to know that they are enough, even if their parents won't show them, we as a community need to show them that this isn't okay, but they will be okay. Without the older boyfriend, without any boyfriend/ girlfriend, whatever.  I don't consider myself as a radical feminist, but the one thing I would love to teach all females as teens who think they need the hot older man. They need to know that everything about them is valuable, and that they need to value themselves. The older adult men/women preying on these kids, well they can go swimming in a pool of fuck the fuck off.

 

Stop rationalizing this. It's not okay. Value our young so they learn to value themselves.