Caleb Williams

[BachelorToTheRapture]

30 minutes ago, Alice in Fundieland said:

I believe once they’ve fulfilled their commitment to the Navy they could then take the honorable discharge and enlist in the Army. But I don’t think the years of service to one branch of the military would transfer to another; they would basically be starting over.

Yeah, I know people who've moved branches and they have to start over. One guy moved from Navy? to Army and did ROTC to become an officer.

[Beermeet]

I had no idea this happened.  I thought pick one and that's where you stay. Thanks. Learn something new every day!

[Kailash]

@Rio I’m really glad you spoke up. Many things were thought of differently in the past. The problem is when people still think it was ok because they lived through it. No! It happened (I’m not talking about you specifically, btw, just a jumping off point), but intelligent people learn from mistakes and make changes. Really we saw this attitude a lot from SapphireSlytherine: about carseats etc. She was always one to mention her own experiences with dangerous things. All that to say- some people are stuck in the past in their thinking and do not realize it. I hope that this thread will cause people to re-examine their thoughts and feelings about things that used to be done or accepted but are not now. I imagine that anyone who defends a reationship between a 15 year old and an adult has other areas that need to be worked through as well.

[Nomorethanfour]

57 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I had no idea this happened.  I thought pick one and that's where you stay. Thanks. Learn something new every day!

My husband switched from the Marine Corps to Army. He kept his rank and years towards retirement. This was 23 years ago and he is still active duty.

[Escadora]

You know, as much as I appreciate the political, theological, and experiential diversity a forum like this can offer, I think the limits set are good ones to have and to uphold, and I'm beyond glad that I missed the 'proof' @Shadoewolf posted, and am grateful for the admins that work hard to make sure the forum is a space where things like this won't be tolerated. 

I don't know if there will be any sanctions or warnings for @Shadoewolf with regards to the rule she so flagrantly and gleefully broke, but I hope that if it is it gives her a chance to cool off and consider that messaging her SIL something that I can only assume went like "Hey you know how YOU were a teenage hussy and YOU trapped my ADULT brother with your flirting and relentless pursuing? You remember all of that was YOUR fault and how my relative was TOTALLY INNOCENT and only playing along and how even though I'd feel TOTALLY DIFFERENT about it happening today, don't you absolutely still agree that it was all your fault and responsibility and aren't you now SO HAPPY to be a part of this family where we TOTALLY love you and don't look down on you (except in secret, where we trash talk you to people on the internet!) even though you were a teenage jezebel. I mean SURE I might post horrible things about you online, but don't you APPRECIATE that we accept you?"  and then posting her responses wasn't exactly the wisest nor most prudent of moves. I mean, Christ, what response did you think you'd get here, Shadoewolf? But, then, I suppose your expected response mattered far less than the 'GOTCHA!' moment you thought you'd have and prove us all totally wrong with. Yikes. 

It always freaks me out on here when someone I previously have agreed with a good, consistent amount with suddenly hits the thread with something that just seems so out of place with what I'd assumed their worldview to be. I suppose that's good in that it definitively proves that FJ is not one giant hivemind as some fundie visitors in the past have so claimed, but rather is made up of individuals with their own experiences and beliefs. I've said it before that I love that on this forum there's not that pressure to conform and change just to fit in with the majority opinion, but oh boy sometimes I wish that I could know that there were a few things that we all agreed on, especially with regards to the safety and wellbeing of all of society's most vulnerable members. I'm sure none of us ever expect to enter a thread and post an opinion and then have it get angry responses because oops wow a lot of people don't agree with that. I'd like to think that if it happened to me that I'd take it as a chance to indulge in a little bit of introspection and see if there's not some real merit to the mass disapproval, but I'm sometimes just as likely to dig my heels in and double down like Shadoewolf has. 

Either way, reading this thread has been a real journey. I'd like to thank everyone who's shared for doing so, and big hugs to everyone, I know this is one of those subjects that can leave people feeling super raw, so don't feel bad if you need to take a break and not come back to it for a while (if at all). I myself plan to go and watch something super fluffy on netflix and take a couple days out from FJ again (we'll see how that goes), so go chase the escapism of your choice if you need to! 

 

 

[Aine]

On how times have changed- my Dad dated his geography teacher through the majority of his last two years of high school. He actually repeated his last year of high school (included in those two years) for "football and Teacher's Name". He was on the younger end of his grade and only just turned 17 right before graduation the first time round so the extra year was probably good for him anyway besides his reasoning- he loved high school but he was fairly directionless in school and then even after his second graduation for a good 10 years even though he succeeded in everything he tried.

Anyway, he still talks about that relationship like it made him such a 'player'. She was maybe 23ish and she was very beautiful, I've seen plenty of photos, and my Dad was the popular rugby star that was already getting starts in 1st grade (professional) games at 17 outside of school and he was intelligent etc. When I was younger and even until a few years ago, I pretty much added this fact about my Dad to illustrate the "kind of guy" he was in high school with an eye roll, and I'd heard the story enough over the years (although not excessively, as it came up) that I never gave it a lot of thought. I know for a fact that my father thinks this relationship did him no damage and the relationship was common knowledge to both the school and his and her family and friends at the time. However, after that relationship, my father had relationship after relationship with straight-up abusive and controlling women. On the surface, he seems like what Australians would call "a typical bloke" and an athlete and into stereotypical masculine things- but he's extremely passive in relationships, he's very gentle, committed, 'all in', generous, non-judgmental (but I'd argue now, as an adult, that his 'non-judgment' is to the point of overlooking serious red-flags), seems drawn to women who 'need saving', and a certain kind of woman really does seem to take advantage of all of that in him. His profile is very much like a female who goes through a string of unhealthy relationships. Throughout my life, he never saw his wants or his opinion as mattering as much as his that of his partners' opinions. If they criticized and put him down, it must be true. If they didn't think it would be healthy for 'the household' to have his daughter who had been removed from her mother come and live them full time, he assumed they were right.

I love my Dad to bits. He's so far from perfect but he's thankfully in the first healthy relationship of his life (5 years now!) and he's working on his communication and assertiveness and his partner helps with that. He finally believes that she won't leave/threaten to leave/throw things/physically assault him/accuse him of molesting his daughter/a host of other things (all have happened) because he disagrees with her or wants to do something he's interested in on his own. He's in therapy now too and doing really well. He calls me and tells me about his sessions and will say so surprised, "I always thought I believed this- but I don't! My core belief is this, which is why I've always done things that are the opposite of how I think things should be for other people! I think it started when *this happened*." In my head, I'm like "yeah, been telling you that for awhile" but out loud I'm obviously interested and proud and he's translating it into behavior change and seems so happy that he's like a different human.

Anyway, typical Aine ramble, I have come to believe that his relationship with his geography teacher, which was his first long-term and more 'adult' and serious relationship, did impact how he perceived his role in relationships, how he perceived the power differential in every relationship subsequent to that, and damaged his self-esteem/self-worth. There were other clear contributors too. It wasn't that alone. But I do believe that relationship caused him harm. 

[Nomorethanfour]

Thanks to all who have so eloquently and fiercely pushed back on those who have tried to somehow justify this assholes actions.

I'm just now catching up, but were people actually trying to defend Toby Willis? That is beyond sick. I hope all of these abusers are given the maximum punishment.

[Walking Cat Bed]

3 hours ago, Beermeet said:

✋ I have a quick question.  If one has been in the Navy for almost a decade can they switch to Army?  I've never heard of this but I also truly don't know about these matters.

It's possible to switch branches, but it's not particularly common. It's less uncommon with sister branches (i.e., Navy to Marines or Air Force to Army) and with specialized career fields. Someone who can operate a specific vehicle or type of equipment is more likely to have a nearly-lateral move (I think rank is usually similar, based on their experience with the new job). All of the above with the caveat that I didn't do pay paperwork for more than one or two branch-to-branch moves, if that, and it was quite a while ago. And one of those cases that was sent on to someone with specific knowledge (we 

 

It's much more common for someone to change jobs but stay in the same branch; my job training class was about a dozen, three of whom had been in different career fields. One classmate was an airborne medic (she'd been providing care to people in transit via helicopter) and needed a more stable schedule because she and her husband wanted to adopt. And she had the right aptitude scores for the new job. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

4 hours ago, Beermeet said:

✋ I have a quick question.  If one has been in the Navy for almost a decade can they switch to Army?  I've never heard of this but I also truly don't know about these matters.

Theoretically yes, but the new service has to be accepting prior service applicants at the time.  The AF is probably the strictest about accepting prior service applicants, and I've known people who had to come in the AF at a rank lower than what they left their first service as.

Now, it's different if you are separating as an enlisted member from one service to join another service's commissioning program.  That's generally much easier to do.  

[VelociRapture]

@Escadora Just to briefly set the record straight:

1. It was her former BIL and his wife, not her brother.

2. And that isn’t how the text conversation went. She didn’t mention her negative comments regarding her former SIL or former BIL at all. She basically framed it as an online discussion she was part of regrading age and consent in relationships that she thought she may have an interesting opinion on. I don’t remember whether she mentioned that she had brought up her situation or not (I want to say she did), but I do think she specifically worded her questions to lead to the answers she wanted. I also didn’t see anything about her asking for or receiving permission to share the texts the way she choose to. 

I’m not sure what she was looking to prove with that move to be honest. My best guess is that she has serious boundary issues and an inability to walk away from a conversation when she should. Nothing in those texts really matters because it was illegal for her BIL to be involved with a minor. 

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, Kailash said:

@Rio I’m really glad you spoke up. Many things were thought of differently in the past. The problem is when people still think it was ok because they lived through it. No! It happened (I’m not talking about you specifically, btw, just a jumping off point), but intelligent people learn from mistakes and make changes. Really we saw this attitude a lot from SapphireSlytherine: about carseats etc. She was always one to mention her own experiences with dangerous things.

 

I'm quoting you because you mentioned @SapphireSlytherin who has long been a problem poster.  IMO, that is.  SapphireSlytherin identified as being in her 50s, IIRC, and said many stupid, ignorant and really repulsive things.

She seems to have left - I hope permanently - as she has not logged in since December 19th.  If she does come back, I hope it is chastened and apologetic.  I'm not sure I want to forgive her for things she said on this thread or elsewhere.

3 hours ago, Kailash said:

All that to say- some people are stuck in the past in their thinking and do not realize it. I hope that this thread will cause people to re-examine their thoughts and feelings about things that used to be done or accepted but are not now. I imagine that anyone who defends a reationship between a 15 year old and an adult has other areas that need to be worked through as well.

I hope people understand that SapphireSlytherin, and her attitudes, are not necessarily representative of her cohort.  Or of all people over 50.  At all.  She is a dinosaur in many more ways than one.

It is my generation, and the cohorts both 10 years ahead of me and those behind me, that witnessed many godawful things and tried to do something about them.  That is why we now have better laws against statutory rape, why student-teacher relationships are now verboten, why we have greater understanding of the dynamics of domestic violence, have actual laws against sexual harassment in the workplace, and have fought very hard testing the boundaries.   

We are not there yet.  Obviously.  Just looking at this thread and at the #metoo movement. 

Those of us who battled, even with the laws changed in our favor, have the scars to prove it.  Not everyone wants to put themselves through it.  And younger observers have seen how people who stand up for their rights have been taken down and shamed.  

It still takes courage to speak up and speak out.  We need to stamp these victim blaming attitudes out so speaking up and speaking out is the norm and not the exception.  And so that victims are supported and not shamed.

So to me blaming the victim in cases like this *might just* be forgivable in an eighty-year old.  But not in anyone much younger than that.   And if I see those attitudes in someone under 50 - or under 30 - then I really want to throw up.  

[Georgiana]

58 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 And that isn’t how the text conversation went. She didn’t mention her negative comments regarding her former SIL or former BIL at all. She basically framed it as an online discussion she was part of regrading age and consent in relationships that she thought she may have an interesting opinion on. I don’t remember whether she mentioned that she had brought up her situation or not (I want to say she did), but I do think she specifically worded her questions to lead to the answers she wanted. I also didn’t see anything about her asking for or receiving permission to share the texts the way she choose to. 

I’m not sure what she was looking to prove with that move to be honest. My best guess is that she has serious boundary issues and an inability to walk away from a conversation when she should. Nothing in those texts really matters because it was illegal for her BIL to be involved with a minor. 

I also did not find the responses to be the resounding defense of the situation that the poster thought they were, and I think it's appropriate to defend the SIL on that since she was framed as a staunch defender of what happened.  In fact, her replies, brief as they were, appeared to be much more nuanced, and I thought that the poster went through some serious mental gymnastics to construe them as being in any way a defense of what had happened.  Reading them as an outside party, even with some very obviously leading questions, I felt that the responses were very carefully worded and diplomatic in a way that seemed to suggest that the respondent was not fully in agreement but was avoiding conflict. Sounded a lot like me with my sister when I think she's wrong, but I'm not willing to fight about it.

Bottom line is: no one is missing anything by not reading these texts.  The victim never indicated she thought she was to blame or responsible (she indicated she texted/called/reached out to him as much as he did her.  This is, of course, exactly what teenagers do in relationships, so I'm not sure why anyone would think that would indicate special aggressive consent instead of being just age-typical behavior), indicated she felt that her atypical home life contributed to her pursuing such a relationship, and came out and said she would NOT support a similar relationship today.  I see her being in more agreement with the vast majority of the posters here than with the poster who posted the texts.

 

[Beermeet]

@Aine Thank you for sharing about your father.  In more recent years I have come to understand and be more sympathetic of men.  Being married for 18 yrs and having a son, knowing men for decades, my kids friends, etc. has opened my eyes.  The way you know you father and see him as the multi-faceted human being he is, is beautiful.  I was an only child with my cousins hours away so, I didn't have much understanding of how boys/men processed life. I didn't know much about their inner selves.  Because men are taught to be a certain way, just like we are. And, it's not healthy for them either.  Right now my husband is mourning the loss of a dear friend and he's broken up but it's hard to tell.  He told me he wished he could just cry and get it over with.  I told him that he can.  That wether he realized it or not, he almost did twice. I mentioned crying in the shower as a good private place.  I talked to him about how boys are taught that and it's not cool. He sorta agreed but said that that's how boys just are from birth.  I said no, you think that because you've heard nothing else from birth.  I saw a light go off. Briefly.  We moved on and about 30 mins later he took an unexpected shower ( we've been married a long time. I know when shower time is! Lol) a long one.  He seemed a litte sad after and I hope he cried.  He at least took a moment after we spoke.  I love that man and he trusts my advice.  While I am happy I helped a bit, how sad is that?  It's a death for goodness sake. 

[SilverBeach]

Men are human too. @Beermeet, your post brought tears to my eyes.

[Escadora]

5 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@Escadora Just to briefly set the record straight:

1. It was her former BIL and his wife, not her brother.

2. And that isn’t how the text conversation went. She didn’t mention her negative comments regarding her former SIL or former BIL at all. She basically framed it as an online discussion she was part of regrading age and consent in relationships that she thought she may have an interesting opinion on. I don’t remember whether she mentioned that she had brought up her situation or not (I want to say she did), but I do think she specifically worded her questions to lead to the answers she wanted. I also didn’t see anything about her asking for or receiving permission to share the texts the way she choose to. 

I’m not sure what she was looking to prove with that move to be honest. My best guess is that she has serious boundary issues and an inability to walk away from a conversation when she should. Nothing in those texts really matters because it was illegal for her BIL to be involved with a minor. 

Thank you for the corrections, and to @Georgiana too for clarifying.  Glad as I am that the post was swiftly deleted, mostly because it was a conversation that never should have happened in the first place, it helps to know more details. 

With how Shadoewolf was related to them I kept getting muddled up. That's entirely my bad, I should have made sure before I posted, and I'll make a larger effort to do that in the future.

I had figured that what I wrote probably wasn't what had been said between her former SIL, and I definitely leaned towards exaggeration. I can only apologise, I guess this is just another one of those subjects that riles me up. What you say she did do is still super shady, I think, and really manipulative, but not to the extent that I went to and whilst my intention was to highlight the ridiculousness of what I thought it was she was going to argue, I think I went a bit too far. 

[Jellybean]

@Beermeet thank you for sharing that. I have lots of brothers and was talking to the one closest to me in age, who had almost the same upbringing (so I thought) but he felt that he had been taught that anger was the only acceptable negative response to bad/sad situations. I was really surprised by that, though I’m not sure why, as I definitely got heavy teaching about how a girl/woman should be. We were talking about emotional coaching for very young children and helping them to identify feelings and develop appropriate responses, which we both think is a great idea, as long as those feelings/responses are not mislabeled according to sex/gender. 

I’m so glad that you were able to share helpful coping strategies with your husband @Beermeet and hope that he can work through his grief appropriately - being ‘allowed’ to cry and grieve and fully experience the various emotions that may go along with such a loss is SO important 

[CarrotCake]

It has been a while since I posted here because I was really shocked how people reacted to me when I wrote that I felt like we could not judge before we knew the full story. At first I felt really defensive because I was put on one pile with people saying she was asking for it and saying he was innocent so I decided to ignore the thread for a while.

Now that I am back and read everyone's opinion I have changed my viewpoint. I let my own experiences as a teenager guide me too much in my first response. When I was 15 I found myself being very mature and responsible when it comes to sex and I would have been fine with 20-25 year old man. Now that I actually look back taking all your stories into account I am actually realizing I was wrong. Maybe it is the fact that it still feels like being 15 was just last year (even though I am almost 30 now) but when I now look back at being 15 I was not mature at all.

So I am sorry that I offended people with my first answer and you guys made me realize that I was wrong. I still stand by the fact that we have to await trial before we judge Caleb but I feel this way with any crime, however I have changed my mind on the fact that, if he is guilty, there are still ways in which his crime could not be that bad.

[Edhelfin]

20 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

It has been a while since I posted here because I was really shocked how people reacted to me when I wrote that I felt like we could not judge before we knew the full story. At first I felt really defensive because I was put on one pile with people saying she was asking for it and saying he was innocent so I decided to ignore the thread for a while.

Now that I am back and read everyone's opinion I have changed my viewpoint. I let my own experiences as a teenager guide me too much in my first response. When I was 15 I found myself being very mature and responsible when it comes to sex and I would have been fine with 20-25 year old man. Now that I actually look back taking all your stories into account I am actually realizing I was wrong. Maybe it is the fact that it still feels like being 15 was just last year (even though I am almost 30 now) but when I now look back at being 15 I was not mature at all.

So I am sorry that I offended people with my first answer and you guys made me realize that I was wrong. I still stand by the fact that we have to await trial before we judge Caleb but I feel this way with any crime, however I have changed my mind on the fact that, if he is guilty, there are still ways in which his crime could not be that bad.

Edited - sorry that I misunderstood

[CarrotCake]

15 minutes ago, Edhelfin said:

It was 'very bad'. Please stop.

I don't think you read my post correctly.

I am actually changing my views compared to the beginning and acknowledging that it was indeed very bad.

 

Edit: thank you for changing your post. English is not my native language so I might not have been clear ? 

[Edhelfin]

2 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I don't think you read my post correctly.

I am actually changing my views compared to the beginning and acknowledging that it was indeed very bad.

 

Edit: thank you for changing your post. English is not my native language so I might not have been clear ? 

Mine too. I occasionally have comprehension problems!

[zee_four]

2 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

It has been a while since I posted here because I was really shocked how people reacted to me when I wrote that I felt like we could not judge before we knew the full story. At first I felt really defensive because I was put on one pile with people saying she was asking for it and saying he was innocent so I decided to ignore the thread for a while.

Now that I am back and read everyone's opinion I have changed my viewpoint. I let my own experiences as a teenager guide me too much in my first response. When I was 15 I found myself being very mature and responsible when it comes to sex and I would have been fine with 20-25 year old man. Now that I actually look back taking all your stories into account I am actually realizing I was wrong. Maybe it is the fact that it still feels like being 15 was just last year (even though I am almost 30 now) but when I now look back at being 15 I was not mature at all.

So I am sorry that I offended people with my first answer and you guys made me realize that I was wrong. I still stand by the fact that we have to await trial before we judge Caleb but I feel this way with any crime, however I have changed my mind on the fact that, if he is guilty, there are still ways in which his crime could not be that bad.

Thank you for being so candid and open minded @CarrotCake I've been following this discussion but not posting and I have had many experiences similar to yours it seems. I'm very tall, and while I was more sticklike than developed, my height alone made me appear older than I was. And like oh so many pre teen and teenage girls, I thought I was so much more mature than others my age. I have two younger brothers and my main peer group from elementary to high school was my all Male ice hockey team. Guys my age mocked me for my height and awkwardness and my biological dad wasnt around or supportive during these formative years. So not shocking but I pursued relationships with older men. 

 

It's something I joke about in a self deprecating way now. Like how I went home with a famous pro skier from the local bar when I was 17 or how I accidentally dated my teacher (I started dating a guy I thought was in college and student teaching when I was a senior only for him to walk into my art class one day as our long term sub). Because of my own experiences sometimes it's hard for me to not defend the situations I found myself in or similar ones others do 

 

However after following this post I realize that any rationalization I've done or do about my own past or others situations is a defense mechanism, but it doesn't make it right. As a 30 year old now, thinking of someone my age with a teenager is repulsive. Regardless of the teenager, the difference in life experience alone makes it predatory. It can be difficult when you've shaped your own historiography for years so you felt empowered instead if victimized, but it sometimes takes taking a good long look in the mirror and taking a deep breath so you can get the perspective you need. I know this thread alone wont suddenly make me deal with my past in a healthy way but by not perpetuating the denial it's a start and that start helps prevent normalizing these kind of predatory behavior and hopefully will protect young girls and young women in the future.

 

Thank you everyone!

[Kailash]

@Palimpsest I did not mean to defend SS or any other rape apologists in any way. I wasn’t trying to excuse her behaviour.  It was an observation of how some people think. I’m sorry if my post was unclear. 

[Lisafer]

1 hour ago, zee_four said:

Thank you for being so candid and open minded @CarrotCake I've been following this discussion but not posting and I have had many experiences similar to yours it seems. I'm very tall, and while I was more sticklike than developed, my height alone made me appear older than I was. And like oh so many pre teen and teenage girls, I thought I was so much more mature than others my age. I have two younger brothers and my main peer group from elementary to high school was my all Male ice hockey team. Guys my age mocked me for my height and awkwardness and my biological dad wasnt around or supportive during these formative years. So not shocking but I pursued relationships with older men. 

 

It's something I joke about in a self deprecating way now. Like how I went home with a famous pro skier from the local bar when I was 17 or how I accidentally dated my teacher (I started dating a guy I thought was in college and student teaching when I was a senior only for him to walk into my art class one day as our long term sub). Because of my own experiences sometimes it's hard for me to not defend the situations I found myself in or similar ones others do 

 

However after following this post I realize that any rationalization I've done or do about my own past or others situations is a defense mechanism, but it doesn't make it right. As a 30 year old now, thinking of someone my age with a teenager is repulsive. Regardless of the teenager, the difference in life experience alone makes it predatory. It can be difficult when you've shaped your own historiography for years so you felt empowered instead if victimized, but it sometimes takes taking a good long look in the mirror and taking a deep breath so you can get the perspective you need. I know this thread alone wont suddenly make me deal with my past in a healthy way but by not perpetuating the denial it's a start and that start helps prevent normalizing these kind of predatory behavior and hopefully will protect young girls and young women in the future.

 

Thank you everyone!

I have a lot of sympathy for the difficulty of trying to reinterpret your own past. I still feel guilt over being sexually harassed: questioning myself, etc. I think what really made people angry here was the unjustifiably cruel remarks about a 15 year old being some kind of man-eating hussy who was "into it."

If thinking of yourself as a victim is not helpful to you, maybe you could use "survivor" instead. Because here you are. You survived. ?

[Palimpsest]

58 minutes ago, Kailash said:

@Palimpsest I did not mean to defend SS or any other rape apologists in any way. I wasn’t trying to excuse her behaviour.  It was an observation of how some people think. I’m sorry if my post was unclear. 

No, no, it's perfectly OK.  Your post was very clear, and people of all ages can be unpleasant victim blamers and rape apologists. 

People of all ages can also rethink their position, as we have seen on this thread.  Thanks, @CarrotCake for coming back and explaining that your viewpoint had changed.   It shows that these sort of discussions, painful as they are, are worth having.

@Kailash your post just reminded me of all the other times SS has been deliberately obstreperous and hidebound in her thinking.   She gives people over 50 a bad name.  Not everyone over 50 thinks or behaves like her by any means, as plenty of our other older members demonstrate every day.  And, FTR, I am 63.

[SamiKatz]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

 your post just reminded me of all the other times SS has been deliberately obstreperous and hidebound in her thinking.   She gives people over 50 a bad name.  Not everyone over 50 thinks or behaves like her by any means, as plenty of our other older members demonstrate every day.  And, FTR, I am 63.

I agree.  I'm 57 and so many of the posts in this thread angered and saddened me at the same time.  It's truly appalling that people still blame or assume the victim was complicit in their abuse in some way.