Caleb Williams

[SilverBeach]

12 hours ago, Aine said:

I have no desire to watch the Lifetime thing on him as I've read a number of investigative journalism pieces on him and his "harem" (i.e. group of abused women with Stockholm syndrome that have every aspect of their life controlled by him).

I had no real desire to watch, but I felt compelled to as a black woman who was a victim of child sexual abuse, and a native Chicagoan and south sider (I am ashamed of the black community's response to him). I watched because I wanted those victims of R Kelly to be heard by me. I also want the viewership to be high so that R Kelly's music will finally be cancelled.  Over the years, I have read much on him also there is the common knowledge aspect of his predatory ways here in metro Chicago, which is why I have long despised him. None of his music could ever be played around me.

It is sad that black girls are often sexualized far younger than they should be, and are seen as "fast" and not deserving of protection. I hate to say it, but I think if the victim of his 21 counts of child pornography were white, he would have been convicted. He was found not guilty on all counts. Unfucking believable.

[Carm_88]

I think when it comes to people who are family to some degree, you want to think the best of them and stick by them. I've mentioned before that my cousin's husband was accused of misconduct with one of his students. We didn't get much details because they are on the other end of the country, but the main thing that we heard was that she was lying. She came from a bad family, and she wasn't well liked, no one believed her. We saw that the school he worked at, the students were rallying around him because he was so nice and such a great teacher. So we assumed that it was a lie and that girl was the worst person in the world. 

Guess what? She was telling the truth and he was charged with luring a minor as well as some other things. He was fired, he can never teach again. His wife still works at that school, as the principal and his children went to school there. We will never know what the went through, because they will never mention it, but good lord. I look at his nieces now and think "How could he have thought that this 17 year old and thought it was a good idea?" Because he's a predator, he picked the girl that no one would believe. Who he thought wouldn't have the guts to report it. I am so proud of her, I wish I knew who she was because I would tell her that she is so brave. She had to go through her senior year being ostracized and she was right. I wish every woman had the bravery that this young woman did. I hope she's doing well. 

I wish my cousin would divorce her mess of a husband, but that's not my business.  

[Beermeet]

@SilverBeach I agree. If his victims were white there would be a different outcome to his trial.  Or if Brock Turner was black,  he'd be in jail longer.  Society really does still want to protect white women from black men.  I also agree about black girls/women being on the bottom of the list of people with vaginas in America who need better protection and advocacy. It's not great for any of us to begin with.  Just look at that McDonald's case.  No one helped her. None of the men around did shit.  She was on her own.  That made me cry.  POS men calming the customer who just violently attacked her.  Thank goodness she is an aspiring boxer so she could help herself a bit.  I'm glad she got a lawyer and fuck those men who stood by. 

I love being a woman and I honor and respect my fellow girls/ women. The shit we go through.  Smdh.  

 

[Aine]

4 hours ago, Lisafer said:

I'd like to point out, in case anyone finds themselves in a situation where they need to report the sexual abuse of a minor, that Child Protective Services might be a better choice than the police. Depending on the individual circumstances, of course, but Child Services deals with these things every day, and I believe in most locations you can report anonymously if needed.

I'm not sure what this is like in all places but I am a mandatory reporter due to my occupation and I have worked in three countries, and within the US, in three states. Frustratingly, I have never had a report I have given regarding a teenager be followed up except for once when the stepfather in the home was sexually abusing his teen stepdaughter. I have reported statutory situations but child services, if they attend the house and meet with the teen and parents, which has only ever happened on one report I have made about a 13-yr-old with a 19-year-old, they usually see it as a parental matter and statutory rape is very difficult to act on if both parties in the "relationship" deny sexual activity and especially if the parents do not see it as abuse or an issue. As we've seen in this thread, many many people unfortunately do not see these age differences as a serious crime- that includes police officers, child services workers, and the public including parents and people known to the family. Of course some workers absolutely do see it is as serious but again, it's difficult to prove if all parties deny it and are not cooperating, and when police officers and CPS are overworked, it usually is not triaged as an urgent matter. 

It sucks and it isn't right but I've worked on interdisciplinary teams that have included CPS workers when I was working in the substance use field where we'd meet monthly with all services involved with the families (housing, child services, mental health/drug treatment and family intervention i.e. me and colleagues, representatives from public schools that the children attend etc etc) and go down through maybe 20 families on the caseload for this intensive intervention and the sheer volume of the workload many CPS workers are faced with is overwhelming. My understanding is that it is worse here in many parts of the US where this interdisciplinary kind of model is used a lot less. I do understand that when you get 20 calls a day into an office to be triaged and you have 6 social workers and 12 of the calls involve babies, toddlers, children not in school yet, another 6 are for elementary aged kids who may have younger siblings at home that the school reporting doesn't know the condition of, and 2 are for teenagers who hypothetically can run away or tell someone or may even have parents that have never had a report against them but their teen is dating an older man/woman...there are other cases that take priority. I wish it wasn't like that and I know it's not always like that but that has been my experience. 

Of course none of that means that you shouldn't make the report to any agency that might be able to help the young person in that situation. I'm just saying that it's upsetting that even when you do, it may not result in any action. Sorry to be a downer. Definitely, if you see something then say something regardless of the failures of the various systems in situations like this.

[Aine]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

I had no real desire to watch, but I felt compelled to as a black woman who was a victim of child sexual abuse, and a native Chicagoan and south sider (I am ashamed of the black community's response to him). I watched because I wanted those victims of R Kelly to be heard by me. I also want the viewership to be high so that R Kelly's music will finally be cancelled.  Over the years, I have read much on him also there is the common knowledge aspect of his predatory ways here in metro Chicago, which is why I have long despised him. None of his music could ever be played around me.

It is sad that black girls are often sexualized far younger than they should be, and are seen as "fast" and not deserving of protection. I hate to say it, but I think if the victim of his 21 counts of child pornography were white, he would have been convicted. He was found not guilty on all counts. Unfucking believable.

I agree with everything you said. Your reasoning makes me also want to hear his victims. I have definitely read their statements and I will watch when I feel strong enough.

I come from an Aboriginal background and there are similar issues as what black women face in my community back home. Aboriginal women or children go missing, and there is often barely an investigation or any publicity but you will see the face of a missing white child for years in the media and there will be whole task forces working on it for years. Not that there shouldn't be but the difference in response if very (excuse the double meaning) black and white. It is the same with the sexualization of Aboriginal girls and women. The responses to murders and disappearances of Aboriginal men are no better either, much like here in the US. We also have a similar percentage of Aboriginal men in prison as black communities here in the US. Lots of parallels. 

I am sorry for your childhood abuse and glad you survived and thank you for sharing your reasoning. I realize I sounded privileged in my dismissal of watching it. We shouldn't hide or shut our ears or eyes because listening to victims saying their truth is "too hard" for us. 

[Aine]

Also, one other thing regarding reports to CPS- you can give them your name and ask that they do not share that with the family (or ask if your particular agency will allow that) because even though completely anonymous reporting is allowed in almost all agencies (unless you're a mandatory reporter- then you're identified) they often do not give as much weight to an anonymous report unless it's something extremely severe where the minor is in immediate and serious danger or it's a baby/toddler as they do if you tell them your name and how you came into the knowledge of the report. For example, ask if your name can be kept back from the family because it could cause issues for you (i.e. if it is a family member) before identifying yourself and if they agree, then identifying yourself usually gives more 'weight' to the report because they're less likely to think it's spurious or hearsay or a 'guess'. A caller saying that their brother-in-law who is in their late 20s is having sex with a 15 year old female and you know this because it's your brother-in-law and they met in your house while you were out of town and they have not kept this relationship a secret and you are worried about the 15 year old's wellbeing as her parents have been contacted and they do not see a problem and you're concerned that they will not step in to protect their child? That will have a lot more weight than remaining completely anonymous because then you will also need to be vague about how/why you have this knowledge, and that will be lower on the triage list than a report in which the source of the information is known because it adds to the credibility. 

Obviously, if the only way you're willing to make a report is to stay completely anonymous- that's better than nothing. If they get multiple anonymous reports in from different people about the same situation, they'll likely investigate but they don't always investigate anonymous reports because the report also ends up being more vague in order for the reporter to not be easily identified from the information given.

I don't know if that all makes sense. When I put in a report as a concerned family member to child services in Australia last year from the US, I made the decision to identify myself and that if necessary, they could identify me to my family member (the mother of the children I was concerned about), simply because I knew that they were more likely to act on the report if I did that. I have put in too many reports as a concerned family member outside of my role as a mandatory reporter over the years where I have remained anonymous and none were followed up on.

[Lisafer]

6 hours ago, Aine said:

I'm not sure what this is like in all places but I am a mandatory reporter due to my occupation and I have worked in three countries, and within the US, in three states. Frustratingly, I have never had a report I have given regarding a teenager be followed up except for once when the stepfather in the home was sexually abusing his teen stepdaughter. I have reported statutory situations but child services, if they attend the house and meet with the teen and parents, which has only ever happened on one report I have made about a 13-yr-old with a 19-year-old, they usually see it as a parental matter and statutory rape is very difficult to act on if both parties in the "relationship" deny sexual activity and especially if the parents do not see it as abuse or an issue. As we've seen in this thread, many many people unfortunately do not see these age differences as a serious crime- that includes police officers, child services workers, and the public including parents and people known to the family. Of course some workers absolutely do see it is as serious but again, it's difficult to prove if all parties deny it and are not cooperating, and when police officers and CPS are overworked, it usually is not triaged as an urgent matter. 

It sucks and it isn't right but I've worked on interdisciplinary teams that have included CPS workers when I was working in the substance use field where we'd meet monthly with all services involved with the families (housing, child services, mental health/drug treatment and family intervention i.e. me and colleagues, representatives from public schools that the children attend etc etc) and go down through maybe 20 families on the caseload for this intensive intervention and the sheer volume of the workload many CPS workers are faced with is overwhelming. My understanding is that it is worse here in many parts of the US where this interdisciplinary kind of model is used a lot less. I do understand that when you get 20 calls a day into an office to be triaged and you have 6 social workers and 12 of the calls involve babies, toddlers, children not in school yet, another 6 are for elementary aged kids who may have younger siblings at home that the school reporting doesn't know the condition of, and 2 are for teenagers who hypothetically can run away or tell someone or may even have parents that have never had a report against them but their teen is dating an older man/woman...there are other cases that take priority. I wish it wasn't like that and I know it's not always like that but that has been my experience. 

Of course none of that means that you shouldn't make the report to any agency that might be able to help the young person in that situation. I'm just saying that it's upsetting that even when you do, it may not result in any action. Sorry to be a downer. Definitely, if you see something then say something regardless of the failures of the various systems in situations like this.

I thought about mentioning that, but was typing on my phone. I feel like, at least where I live, you've got a better chance of Child Services doing something than the police, but it may vary from place to place.

And yes, a report of statutory rape may change absolutely nothing about the situation--but at least you'll have done what you could. A clear conscience is pretty important too, and the knowledge that SOMEONE cared enough to report may be invaluable to the victim later on, when the glow has worn off and they start coming to grips with the situation. 

Oh, and I was also suggesting CPS because there's so many people out there with a legitimate fear of the police. Reporting to a different agency might be less stressful.

[VineHeart137]

On 1/5/2019 at 4:02 AM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

@Shadoewolf I get what you are trying to say with all of this. The woman you know is perfectly OK with what happened to her as a 15 year old, she's still married to the man still and see's no harm no foul. However, the issue that you are missing is that her at 15 & and he at 22, what they did is considered statutory rape.  Even if she consented, even if she, as you said "knew what she was doing", it is still a crime.  Because she was not old enough to consent, and that is the point everyone is trying to get you to see. He should have said no but he didn't, and that is all on him, he was the adult, she was a child. A child who was not old enough to legally say yes to sex with a person his age.  Her being happy now is beside the point, her thinking it was fine is beside the point, the point is, what he did was a crime, a crime he willingly committed. Even IF she knew what she was doing, it was still a crime on his part, because when a 22 year old man has sex with a 15 year old girl it is considered statutory rape.  Do you get this? I think you are missing this point,

That all said, I don't care if she is happy now, or if she thinks what she did was fine, it wasn't. It sounds like she came from a fucked up family and found herself an out with this guy, but is she REALLY happy with her choices?  Would she allow her 15 year old child to be sexually active with a 22 year old? I'm guessing she wouldn't, because she knows it is wrong. 

Oh, and please don't ask her to relive all of that for our sake. We know what you are saying we get it, we just disagree with you, and for whatever reason you can't accept that we aren't finding some level of agreement in your argument. Just know that none of us will because we all seem to understand the 1 thing you are missing, that a crime was committed, and that crime cannot be blamed on the 15 year old, no matter how willing a participant she was. 

Quoting for truth and because I literally have no words of my own right now. Thank you for this.

[VelociRapture]

Just a FYI for everyone - I already reported the latest post by the poster in question because I feel it was highly inappropriate for her to post screenshots of a conversation she had with the SIL about all this. 

@ShadoewolfI’m extremely disappointed in you. I honestly can’t believe you’d go ahead and share a private conversation like that on a public forum - and do so WITHOUT appearing to tell her that you’d be sharing the actual texts the way you did.

That’s all I’m going to say on the matter. I am so, so very disappointed.

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

And that said, peace! I'm out.

Hopefully out of the forum in general? You come off like a troubled person who struggles with disagreement as well as the boundaries of forum discussions (even after receiving a warning from the mods). And frankly, you're not coming off as all that bright. This might not be the place for you. 

[Flossie]

Some people can't stop poking the bear.  Some people absolutely must have the last word.  And some people are willing to do exactly what they were told not to do by the Administrator of the board and post a text conversation with a person who wasn't told that the texts would be copied and pasted, and put online.  

Probably the same type of person would describe this whole mess as a discussion about the age of consent, but fail to notify her ex-SIL that she said many times that the SIL knew exactly what she was doing, hinted that the girl got pregnant to trap her new boyfriend, and her parents were happy to threaten the man with rape charges if he didn't marry the girl.  You know, the guy who was described as looking like he had a gun held to his head in their wedding pictures?

I noticed that Shadoewolf failed to mention all the negative things she said about the person she was texting with, but asked leading questions guaranteed to get the answers she wanted.  And mentioned her heartbreak at hearing SIL's husband called a pedophile and a rapist, and how she herself had her integrity attacked because she didn't report the budding relationship to the authorities.  What was this woman supposed to say?

Congrats, Shadoewolf.  I reported your post, and if you have to have future posts moderated, you can blame me, but you really should blame yourself.

ETA:  Sorry, I was so busy reporting and then making my own response to Shadoewolf, that I didn't realize that others had done the same thing earlier.

[Lisafer]

It looks like whatever TOU violation occurred was cleared out with the speed of Pac-Man munching dots. *thumbs up*

[VelociRapture]

1 minute ago, Lisafer said:

It looks like whatever TOU violation occurred was cleared out with the speed of Pac-Man munching dots. *thumbs up*

You’ll get the basic idea from the posts by @Flossie and myself. She texted the SIL after people urged her not to do so, asked highly leading questions, failed to mention her own negative words regarding the woman and her husband, failed to post anything indicating she had received permission to share screenshots of the texts, proceeded to share said screenshots (with names blurred), and then acted like it was supposed to vindicate her. 

So yeah. I don’t know if she necessarily violated TOU. I personally think she did, but I’m not completely positive. She definitely ignored the warnings by other posters and by @HerNameIsBuffy though. I kind of hope it’s enough for her to get probation here because I think she very badly needs time to cool off and think about her choices here. 

[Lisafer]

2 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

You’ll get the basic idea from the posts by @Flossie and myself. She texted the SIL after people urged her not to do so, asked highly leading questions, failed to mention her own negative words regarding the woman and her husband, failed to post anything indicating she had received permission to share screenshots of the texts, proceeded to share said screenshots (with names blurred), and then acted like it was supposed to vindicate her. 

So yeah. I don’t know if she necessarily violated TOU. I personally think she did, but I’m not completely positive. She definitely ignored the warnings by other posters and by @HerNameIsBuffy though. I kind of hope it’s enough for her to get probation here because I think she very badly needs time to cool off and think about her choices here. 

Yeah, if I had a family member who pulled a stunt like that, livid wouldn't even begin to describe my feelings.

But I'll be glad if this thread finally dies down. It's like, you don't really want to respond to shit-stirring, but you don't want people spewing rape apologies all over the rug up in here either!

[formergothardite]

18 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I think she very badly needs time to cool off and think about her choices here. 

It is time to really think about her life choices! What the hell was that poor woman supposed to say when Shadeowolf messaged her out of the blue with such leading questions?! That conversation did not do anything to help support her claim that the 15 year old was into it so it was okay for an adult to take advantage of her. 

[SamiKatz]

Also, irrespective of whether this 15 year was "okay with it",  it was still illegal.  For all of the 15 year olds who are NOT okay with it!

 

 

 

[singsingsing]

Wow. I'm incredibly glad that I missed @Shadoewolf's latest fuckery. It's almost amazing how obtuse some people can be. Combine that with being a shitty person and the results tend to look something like this:

The fact that there are rape apologists (plural!) on this forum makes my skin crawl. The fact that they seem to be a very tiny minority gives me some hope.

[Aine]

14 hours ago, Lisafer said:

I thought about mentioning that, but was typing on my phone. I feel like, at least where I live, you've got a better chance of Child Services doing something than the police, but it may vary from place to place.

And yes, a report of statutory rape may change absolutely nothing about the situation--but at least you'll have done what you could. A clear conscience is pretty important too, and the knowledge that SOMEONE cared enough to report may be invaluable to the victim later on, when the glow has worn off and they start coming to grips with the situation. 

Oh, and I was also suggesting CPS because there's so many people out there with a legitimate fear of the police. Reporting to a different agency might be less stressful.

@Lisafer, I didn't mean to make it sound as though your advice wasn't the best advice. It was and I agree that CPS usually is more likely to investigate than the police. 

I was just adding on to it. I think sometimes people who haven't had much or any experience with their local agency expect it to be acted on and can become disheartened when they don't. The whole "I reported _____________ to CPS and they didn't even do anything" therefore what's the point of ever reporting. It's usually emotional too because the kid you're reporting about is generally one you know and of course an adolescent can be at risk and subjected to experiences that can have lifelong consequences and as the person reporting, you just want someone to do something.  I don't want people to become disheartened because a report isn't followed up on. 

Also, each time you are privy to a new piece of direct evidence that is not hearsay, call again and explain that you want to add that piece of evidence because it makes the case stronger and will let them know that the risk is continuing. 

[Rio]

As regards the rape apologists I have been reading all of this thread and thinking a lot.

Forty years ago when I was coming of age in suburban Oregon there was no HIV yet. Early sexual activity was the norm. Contraception use was spotty. Early marriage (age 16 or 17 for girls) or abortion were the common solutions to pregnancy. Dating older men was common. Me holding onto my virginity until college was unusual in my circle but it was mostly because I was waiting to be in love first. 

One girl in high school was pretty much openly dating the math teacher and it was a non-issue. They waited until after graduation to marry. In college in the early 80’s it was pretty much our prerogative to date professors if we wanted to, again a non-issue. We spent time with them socially quite a bit. 

At age 16 or 17 I was infatuated with a co-worker in his late 30’s, but he kindly but firmly objected to the age difference and requested that I use “Mr.”, not his first name.  Subsequently I was excited to run into him at a Tom Petty concert, but he was only there to pick up his daughter, thus proving his original point!

My husband and I began our relationship when he was 19 and I was 30. I asked him out and was pretty aggressive about it when we met in pre-med. We have been together and happy for 25 years, but I am coming to realize that it was a bit unfair to him. I tell myself it was God’s will, our families accepted it, and yet. 

[Georgiana]

It's true that some things were tolerated in the past that weren't tolerated today.  Heck, back in the day you could marry your 12 year old off to your 40 year old business partner to solidify your relationship, and that was fine.  You used to be able to walk into people's villages, burn them down, sell everyone into slavery, and people would be like "Well, what did you expect?  It was nighttime."*

We change the laws because we understand now in a way we did not then that these behaviors are not OK.  That young teenagers are more child than adult.  That it's not OK to allow adults to prey on them or to force them into inappropriate relationships just to protect the family interests.

Sometimes this means that you'll be caught in a situation where changing understanding and social values have made what was once seen as the "right call" into the wrong call.  That happens.  To everyone.  @Rio, you have shown everyone a really great way to handle this.  You are thoughtful about the situation without beating yourself up or assigning blame.  You have explained in neutral language why and how things were seen differently, how differing social norms influenced your choices, and you have reflected on how your own position on what happened has changed with the times.  The result is a thought provoking post that introduces really excellent nuances into this discussion WITHOUT making a defense of situations that were likely harmful, even if they were socially acceptable at the time.

And, for what it's worth, I think that while a 19 year old in college dating a 30 year old does likely have a power imbalance, the important thing is that the 19 year old was an adult who can make the adult choice to enter into such a relationship. A 15 year old does not have the same capacity to make that adult choice due to a lack of maturity and development.  

 

*I can't take credit for this joke, it comes from the brilliant DONGLOVER

[Lisafer]

48 minutes ago, Aine said:

@Lisafer, I didn't mean to make it sound as though your advice wasn't the best advice. It was and I agree that CPS usually is more likely to investigate than the police. 

I was just adding on to it. I think sometimes people who haven't had much or any experience with their local agency expect it to be acted on and can become disheartened when they don't. The whole "I reported _____________ to CPS and they didn't even do anything" therefore what's the point of ever reporting. It's usually emotional too because the kid you're reporting about is generally one you know and of course an adolescent can be at risk and subjected to experiences that can have lifelong consequences and as the person reporting, you just want someone to do something.  I don't want people to become disheartened because a report isn't followed up on. 

Also, each time you are privy to a new piece of direct evidence that is not hearsay, call again and explain that you want to add that piece of evidence because it makes the case stronger and will let them know that the risk is continuing. 

I tried to reply and my phone at my post. You totally had good points, and I agree. It's good to point out that reporting may not change anything, so that people won't be so disheartened if that happens. I had noticed a lot of posters mention the police, so I wanted to point out CPS in case someone was afraid of reporting to the cops. Thanks!

[Beermeet]

✋ I have a quick question.  If one has been in the Navy for almost a decade can they switch to Army?  I've never heard of this but I also truly don't know about these matters.

[QuiverDance]

This thread has made me think back to high school days in the late 80's when I was a cheerleader and a 30-something local reporter would regularly show up to cover our school's sporting events ... and also hit on us.  It was so gross.  Some of my compadres didn't share that opinion and felt quite flattered by the attention.  BECAUSE THEY WERE CHILDREN.  That doesn't excuse the behavior of the predatory adult.  I also remember very clearly having a huge, huge crush on one of the newspaper's photographers, but I was also keenly aware that I should not  act on that!  

As a woman raising a daughter who is 11 and looks like a woman, this thread scares the living daylights out of me.

Something I feel is worth mentioning is that all my life I've heard about how girls "mature faster" than boys, and this was used to explain away May/December relationships between girls and adult men.  This trope is pure rape culture posing as conventional wisdom.  IT ESSENTIALLY GIVES PREDATORY MEN LICENSE TO PURSUE YOUNG WOMEN.   

[Alice in Fundieland]

1 hour ago, Beermeet said:

✋ I have a quick question.  If one has been in the Navy for almost a decade can they switch to Army?  I've never heard of this but I also truly don't know about these matters.

I believe once they’ve fulfilled their commitment to the Navy they could then take the honorable discharge and enlist in the Army. But I don’t think the years of service to one branch of the military would transfer to another; they would basically be starting over.

[onekidanddone]

2 hours ago, Beermeet said:

✋ I have a quick question.  If one has been in the Navy for almost a decade can they switch to Army?  I've never heard of this but I also truly don't know about these matters.

I have a friend who switched services although I think there was a gap of a few years in between.