Austria teenage girl jihadis 'want to come home’ from Isil

[Anny Nym]

Removing citizenship (esp without a trial) is appalling, ass backwards, and a whole lot of other nice words.

Well, a good thing we don´t do that then so easy , isn´t it? Nobody is removing citizenship without legal evaluation of any kind on the girls while they are in Syria... Please note they are still under 18! The cases when citizenship was removed are most prominent in that ones grown up men which attended foreign army or commited war crimes. They did of course lose automatically their citizenship. And that was the process until now here. This law is in use.

But we never had a case like this ones with the girls befor though!

I citated from our federal law, also according to the issue of this law applying coming up in quite a few recent discussions in my country. I am, however, not a lawyer and there is no austrian legal evaluation against this 2 particular girls going on at the moment, however there are some going on on the ex-jihadists who are in prison in Austria.

I can only "assume" in regard of legal/news information and making parallels to cases in which removing of citizenship already happened in my country. This is, however, not happening overnight.

There was maybe a misunderstanding about that. But that doesn´t mean the way back to Austria gaping open or even just open for the 2 girls. That would be a lie.

(edited for more clarification than my previous sentences here did hold)

And really, is "not torturing" the family of these girls is really the standard you hold Austria too, Anny? Because that's a pretty low standard. And that's being generous.

You really got me there, jaelh- I shouldn´t have brought that up and should have only wrote the latter part of the sentence you quoted from. My sincerly apologies. The "torturing" issue is indeed a pretty icky topic in the 21st century - not only in historical context, but also when you look how many western countries like point fingers at the east and quite like to relate on this methods themselves.

Believe me, I hold Austria to a quite high standards.

Anny - these theoretical concepts, like the rule of law and human rights, are what our society is founded on. That's it. What makes us better than "them"? Exactly these "theoretical concepts".

Now please don´t exxagerate things here. No-one throws the whole charta of human rights overboard and says "Yeh, fuck law- now we do what we want!" That´s certainly not the case.

However, you might be careful when saying that these "theoretical concepts" make "us" better than "them".

You know it is always very easy to SAY to act upon this and that standard and accuse others of not doing so (especially when it is about something happening farfaraway), when it is done from the safe haven of one´s living room via computer or IPhone. Everyone is a shining white knight on the internet.

Sadly, all this wonderful theoretical concepts (and that´s what they are) "we" - the western society- likes to take so much pride in, they were already as often used as a pretense to act on one´s lowest out of letssay greed for money or ressources like oil, gas, gold or strategic global militaric positioning that it sometimes looks like they aren´t worth the paper they are written on.

ISIS didn´t grow on cabbage patch fields, there are quite a few "upright shining examples" having their grubby little paws in their founding and arming too. Let alone the whole syrian or iraqui war.

Who do you think buys their oil?

And then, when the ugly outcome of all this above calls for some measures that are indeed not pretty, some are eager to scream bloody murder - literally. Behind their keyboard only, of course.

I am not quite convinced that all of the people who now declare to hold everything high and mighty that is known to us a s good and righteous would do that in the actual case of self-involvement. History told us otherwise a couple of times already, so be careful with pointing fingers.

[Burris]

Well, burris - you can call it "ass backwards", "savagery", "tyranny"... whatever nice word will pop into your head, that´s your right to do so.

You’ve performed a neat feat of rhetorical magic, drawing attention away from whole paragraphs of argument and towards exactly four words that you’ve divorced completely from their contexts. A petty trick.

Anyway, it’s ironic (and hypocritical) that so many people condemn the war criminals produced through the course of various conflicts and yet certain of these same people allow their own commitment to the rule of international law to evaporate immediately on contact with risk.

But always keep in mind: at the end of the day, you just might be wrong.

Without your sage council, it would never have occurred to me that someone else's point could be the correct one (and yet somehow I’m certain that even if I’m dead wrong, you still won’t be right).

We don´t torture anyone, we don´t take their family in Sippenhaft. And as I and various other posters have already pointed out, it is completely okay to mourn this girls´fate, to feel sorry for their families and to wish them no long suffering. But that´s it!

You don’t know what your government does anymore than I do.

And if some people now fray about it and think THEY are on the morally higher end, because they act behind their keybords upon some current theoretical concepts of what is "morally right" and what is "morally wrong" (and that might be obsolete in 100 years, as some concepts from 100 years ago are obsolte right now" ) ... well, I say let them do so - whatever soothes their soul. Because it will not change reality.

It's not that I expect someone should read every post I make under a topic before deciding to engage me, but this nonsense you wrote about my allegedly sitting behind the keyboard merely dealing in theory is stark proof that you did not read enough of what I said that you should have the right to condescend to me with your morally relativistic nonsense.

We’re not talking about a hypothetical situation here, or about morality 100 years from now. We’re talking about an actual situation that’s actually happening and that will have actual life and death consequences.

[lilith]

I think it's really important to remember that there is no indication these girls have committed a crime, let alone a conviction in a reputable court.

Running away to marry a radical member of a terrorist group, that by definition one's country can't be at war with as said group is not a state, is not in itself a crime.

There is no indication these young women have participated in any actual terrorist activity.

I wouldn't advocate sending a rescue mission, but I would hope that if they can make it to the embassy of any country with diplomatic relations with Austria they would be given shelter and protection while their legal status and that of their children was ascertained.

[Anny Nym]

It's not that I expect someone should read every post I make under a topic before deciding to engage me, but this nonsense you wrote about my allegedly sitting behind the keyboard merely dealing in theory is stark proof that you did not read enough of what I said that you should have the right to condescend to me with your morally relativistic nonsense.

We’re not talking about a hypothetical situation here, or about morality 100 years from now. We’re talking about an actual situation that’s actually happening and that will have actual life and death consequences.

Of course I did read your post: 20 years ago you engaged in some kind of war-like (?) action that left you with severe physical and psychic consequences. While I will not deny you some insight stemming from your experience, it doesn´t make you automatically a authority on this topic.

[Burris]

....left you with severe physical and psychic consequences. While I will not deny you some insight stemming from your experience, it doesn´t make you automatically a authority on this topic.

The vague description I gave was not meant to establish a level of expertise on my part though an appeal to authority.

(I was answering the criticism of a different poster who was under the mistaken belief the posters who vocally supports peaceable actions do so only because they aren’t prepared for violence.)

The poster was wrong concerning me, but her error here goes deeper: Even a sheltered clean-cut girl has a right to access the marketplace of ideas and share her beliefs – especially against a prologued war that children not yet conceived could end up dying in.

In a free-for-all debate such as on FJ, there will never be an absolute winner.

[It'sFunToRun]

Just to be clear, I did not post that merely to titillate and encourage a curiosity I have no intention of satisfying. Rather, I offered that bit of biographical information to demonstrate to a poster – someone who was obviously indicating that she believes my, er idealism goes much further than my physical willingness to back up my beliefs – that I have indeed paid a pound of flesh for the sake of ideology.

So you're not going to tell us? Droopy poopy.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I did serve in the actual military, but the only injury I got was a minor burn where I got hit by the casing of a bullet that I shot while doing practice shooting.

[DGayle]

We don't consider 15 year olds old enough to *consent to sex*.

But they're old enough to fully cognise what they're doing when they run away to marry?

Kids at 15 are considered to be old enough and cognizant to be allowed full control over all medical decisions, even to block parents from seeing their medical records, but not old enough to sign any legally-binding contracts. Kids at 18 are considered old enough to go to war, but not old enough to buy and drink a single beer.

Would you let a 15-year-old get away with murder because you think they're incapable of understanding the gravity of their decision?

[DGayle]

I understand your concern, but I think the greater risk - and yes I really believe this; it's not merely a device for debate - is that justice without mercy can lead to a kind of tyranny where those who make poor choices are dehumanized to such an extent that anything done to them is seen as justifiable (no matter how shocking).

For many situations, I would agree, but in the case of treason to go to a terrorist organization, the risk of taking those people back is far too great. Right now, their lives are at risk. Bring them back, and everyone around them will be in danger. Even with a probationary period, there are ways of getting messages out. Long-term solitary confinement isn't seen as humane. Any contact with anyone else means there's a way to get messages out. Access to the internet, or even being allowed to send letters, is a chance to get messages out.

This is a situation that does need to be treated this seriously, that once you make your bed, you lay in it. These are tiny kids with no idea there's a world outside terror. These are girls who fled a first world country and swore allegiance to the Allah the terrorists believe in. It would be nice to think we could ever trust a 15-year-old and 17-year-old again, but the fact of the matter is we can't. I think we'd have a far better chance of get Zsu to accept a gay child than of convincing those girls of the full gravity of what they did, and then getting to a point where they could be trusted to go live among society again.

As far as brain development not being done, the brain isn't finished developing until the mid-to-late 20s. Should we excuse crimes committed by early-20-somethings because their brains are still developing? Still developing doesn't mean not having an ability to know right from wrong. Joining a terror organization that you know kills people is something everyone but the tiniest of kids know is wrong, a very bad thing. But for whatever reason, they decided to do it. They put forethought into this, planned it, had plenty of chances to think it over. After all was said and done, they did it anyway.

Go ask any random 15-year-old if running away from home to join a terrorist organization is good or bad, and then ask them the reason for their answer. You aren't likely to find any who seriously say it's good because teens ARE capable of understanding right from wrong in most situations.

[shedemei]

I think it's really important to remember that there is no indication these girls have committed a crime, let alone a conviction in a reputable court.

Running away to marry a radical member of a terrorist group, that by definition one's country can't be at war with as said group is not a state, is not in itself a crime.

There is no indication these young women have participated in any actual terrorist activity.

They ran away to join a terrorist group. Being married off when they got there was simply because that is what women in ISIL do, nothing more nothing less.

[Burris]

For many situations, I would agree, but in the case of treason to go to a terrorist organization, the risk of taking those people back is far too great.

Unless those two girls really were being groomed as agents - a think I can't even fathom in part because of their age and in part because of their notoriety - then I can't see why ISIS would want them back.

But they do have valuable information about ISIS, and all the reason in the world to trade that for security.

Right now, their lives are at risk. Bring them back, and everyone around them will be in danger. Even with a probationary period, there are ways of getting messages out. Long-term solitary confinement isn't seen as humane. Any contact with anyone else means there's a way to get messages out. Access to the internet, or even being allowed to send letters, is a chance to get messages out.

This is assuming the people minding these girls have not been vetted and are instead just glorified babysitters. I assume those two would be monitored by members of the BVT - and every scrap of paper they so much as put ink on would be censored. They could be banned from the net entirely for months or even years.

What I mean by, "They should be watched, and on probation ten years" is that they should wear tracking devices (ankle bracelets), that their mail should be read and then posted by BVT.

I don't believe they should go to prison, unless evidence comes to light that they themselves participated in murder or even in bomb-making. But I don't think for even a moment that the two of them should roam free. I've consistently argued, since the start here, that they should be watched.

This is a situation that does need to be treated this seriously, that once you make your bed, you lay in it. These are tiny kids with no idea there's a world outside terror. These are girls who fled a first world country and swore allegiance to the Allah the terrorists believe in. It would be nice to think we could ever trust a 15-year-old and 17-year-old again, but the fact of the matter is we can't.

None of us knows what insight they have into their crimes - or how much they'll gain over the following years.

One thing I do know is that these girls are potentially going to face a harsher punishment than even the world court - in the following case the ICTY - would hand down to an individual known for his brutality. Here, for example, is my nightmare fuel (Pay special attention to the bottom of page 8).

Yup - he is indescribably dangerous, a political fanatic, a man who rewarded lavish acts of cruelty with booze and days off. And he's free. Without restriction. He can go back to his family - his daughters.

He could chew those girls up and spit them out. He'd call that a light snack.

I'm not bringing this up for fun; I'm making a special and taxing effort to point out that the concept of justice seems to depend as much on the political climate as it does on the facts of any case. Terrorism is the big bogeyman now so you suggest that a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old either be left to die where they are or be brought back and dropped into the darkest hole you can find - solitary confinement isn't just allegedly inhumane, BTW; it is inhumane - and all because Austria would somehow be safer than if the girls were allowed to see daylight.

Seriously - just how likely is it those girls would pass on useful information? And even if they could send messages and wanted to do so, what would they say? They don't have access to sensitive information about Europe counter-terrorism activities. They don't have the manpower or the brains to pull off an attack on their own - especially if they're kept separated. I doubt the BVT would so much as allow them to access whatever blueprints might be available in the public archives.

Go ask any random 15-year-old if running away from home to join a terrorist organization is good or bad, and then ask them the reason for their answer. You aren't likely to find any who seriously say it's good because teens ARE capable of understanding right from wrong in most situations.

But go ask a 15-year-old if joining a group if freedom fighters who also work to keep people in their towns fed; groups with legitimate aims that have been crushed by the superior military might of a decadent Western power.

How many would say 'no' then?

Because I'm pretty sure the foreign kids who join ISIS weren't enticed to leave their families by the world's most honest propaganda:

[Mama Mia]

For me, on a practical level, it comes down to how the identities and stories of these two girls were made known. It seems like there are two options

1) The girls found a secret way to communicate their fears to their family, the media discovered this, dug up info and posted it - revealing who they are and putting them in huge danger.

-or-

2) The girls released all of this themselves - which, to me, would seem a blatant set-up by ISIL for them to get back home and blow stuff up and/or recruit more people, or setting a trap for whoever comes to rescue them.

I think option one is more likely, as The second scenario seems kind of flawed -- big if on them being rescued or permitted back home -- while having the girls bad mouthing the group. Doesn't seem like a good gamble.

If it's the first scenario and the media released their info - I definitely think they should be allowed back, if they can make it. With monitoring etc. I don't think they would make good recruiters anyway if they did come back - as they have already stated they are unhappy.

And I agree with Burris about the propaganda. No extremist group is going to try to recruit people based on the nasty reality. They apparently show lots of very slick videos featuring the more attractive fighters, complete with video game type music. The young women are very active in social media talking about their amazing, romantic husbands - and then idolize their deaths.

[Marianne]

For french speaker : "How facebook put me on the way to the Djihad"

http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2014/10/21/c ... had-255616

[samurai_sarah]

For french speaker : "How facebook put me on the way to the Djihad"

http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2014/10/21/c ... had-255616

Thanks for posting. Made for an interesting, and disturbing read. My French isn't that good, so did I read that right: A woman suggested that the author join her children on their way into jihad? Did I understand that correctly?

[Mama Mia]

This is interesting, and disturbing. Here are three girls aged 15- 16, who were caught Before they were able to join ISIL. They had told their parents they were sick., to stay home from school, stole some money from their parents and then made it from Colorado, USA to Frankfurt Germany.

Can you imagine being the mother of one of these girls :shock: :shock: instead of just playing sick to get a day at home -- your sweet little girl runs off to join ISIL.

I was a horrible teen, who made horrible choices and caused my parents tons of worry and grief. I had a couple kids who were similar to me and made me a nervous wreck for a few years ------but omg, I can't imagine what the poor families of these girls are going through!!

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2 ... /17676123/

[It'sFunToRun]

This is interesting, and disturbing. Here are three girls aged 15- 16, who were caught Before they were able to join ISIL. They had told their parents they were sick., to stay home from school, stole some money from their parents and then made it from Colorado, USA to Frankfurt Germany.

Can you imagine being the mother of one of these girls :shock: :shock: instead of just playing sick to get a day at home -- your sweet little girl runs off to join ISIL.

I was a horrible teen, who made horrible choices and caused my parents tons of worry and grief. I had a couple kids who were similar to me and made me a nervous wreck for a few years ------but omg, I can't imagine what the poor families of these girls are going through!!

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2 ... /17676123/

Those girls were from Somalia and Sudan, so they might have been raised Muslim. That's a little less erirf than when someone with no connection to Islam joins an Islamic terrorist organization.

Were the girls from Austria raised Christain, or did they have a connection to Islam before joining Isis?

[Marianne]

Thanks for posting. Made for an interesting, and disturbing read. My French isn't that good, so did I read that right: A woman suggested that the author join her children on their way into jihad? Did I understand that correctly?

No, she tell she would love to do jihad, but can't because she have children. There's a lot of slang in the text, even me I've had a "... mmm, what are you telling ?"

[Burris]

Now please don´t exxagerate things here. No-one throws the whole charta of human rights overboard and says "Yeh, fuck law- now we do what we want!" That´s certainly not the case.

Of course they do - and have. Your own countrymen have done it. And mine.

The United States has done it in Gitmo with 'the most extreme cases.'

It can happen anywhere, anytime. It just takes the right trigger.

You know it is always very easy to SAY to act upon this and that standard and accuse others of not doing so (especially when it is about something happening farfaraway), when it is done from the safe haven of one´s living room via computer or IPhone. Everyone is a shining white knight on the internet.

...including you - you, an Austrian who should know her own history and yet blithely claims that no one says, "Fuck human rights. We'll do what we want."

At any rate, I had a life before the internet and failed precisely the kind of character test you're discussing.

And now whenever I hear someone say, "We'd neeeever do such and such - and I've heard it a lot - I simply laugh. Because I know that most people are, given the right circumstances, capable of doing anything. Any horrible thing. And it comes to a point where they no longer even care that they've erased their own humanity.

That's not hyperbole; it's happened, and more than once. Modern examples are brutal and many.

Sadly, all this wonderful theoretical concepts (and that´s what they are) "we" - the western society- likes to take so much pride in, they were already as often used as a pretense to act on one´s lowest out of letssay greed for money or ressources like oil, gas, gold or strategic global militaric positioning that it sometimes looks like they aren´t worth the paper they are written on.

And yet you think no one would look at the defectors from ISIS and say, Fuck the law. Fuck human rights"?

How do the two concepts of humanity you present fit together, anyway?

{quote]ISIS didn´t grow on cabbage patch fields, there are quite a few "upright shining examples" having their grubby little paws in their founding and arming too. Let alone the whole syrian or iraqui war.

Who do you think buys their oil?

And then, when the ugly outcome of all this above calls for some measures that are indeed not pretty, some are eager to scream bloody murder - literally. Behind their keyboard only, of course.

[samurai_sarah]

No, she tell she would love to do jihad, but can't because she have children. There's a lot of slang in the text, even me I've had a "... mmm, what are you telling ?"

Thank you so much! Neither the format, nor Google translate was particularly helpful about all the "cmoments" or "javirais", so I ended up relying on my own bad French. Sorry about that, and thanks for clearing it up for me!

[Burris]

Oh, and one more thing - a small request, really:

For those of you who believe the defectors should remain with ISIS - and to face the justice of ISIS - I would love to hear the unvarnished truth.

Oh no, not merely that you don't want them back, but that you're comfortable with the thought of them facing torture. If that's what you believe, then go all in and have the fucking guts to say it.

Don't dance around it: Say it!

[It'sFunToRun]

Oh, and one more thing - a small request, really:

For those of you who believe the defectors should remain with ISIS - and to face the justice of ISIS - I would love to hear the unvarnished truth.

Oh no, not merely that you don't want them back, but that you're comfortable with the thought of them facing torture. If that's what you believe, then go all in and have the fucking guts to say it.

Don't dance around it: Say it!

If ISIS tortures the girls, that's ISIS's fault, not Austria's (or any other country's) fault for not attempting a high risk rescue mission. It's not like Austria can just push a magic button and POOF the girls are back safe. What you're saying could just be said about anything bad. If you don't believe in sending all your money to starving Africans, then just say that you're comfortable with the thought of them starving.

[Anny Nym]

Of course they do - and have. Your own countrymen have done it. And mine.

The United States has done it in Gitmo with 'the most extreme cases.'

It can happen anywhere, anytime. It just takes the right trigger.

I always assumed it is already common knowledge that there is not one single country on this planet, which does the whole charta by the book...

At any rate, I had a life before the internet and failed precisely the kind of character test you're discussing.

And now whenever I hear someone say, "We'd neeeever do such and such - and I've heard it a lot - I simply laugh. Because I know that most people are, given the right circumstances, capable of doing anything. Any horrible thing. And it comes to a point where they no longer even care that they've erased their own humanity.

That's not hyperbole; it's happened, and more than once. Modern examples are brutal and many.

I already said exactly that, why the repeat?

And yet you think no one would look at the defectors from ISIS and say, Fuck the law. Fuck human rights"?

How do the two concepts of humanity you present fit together, anyway?

Aha. What two concepts of humanity do I present?

Well, I'm open to suggestions: What do you suggest the civilian population a thousand kms away do to stop their own governments scrabbling for oil and funding their own future enemies to do it? What do you suggest the people you keep decrying as merely sitting behind their keyboards - people you do not know; people who do act in human rights organizations and so on - yeah, those people - what should they do about ISIS? I mean besides leaving the defectors to die?

People have will, and in times when they can stop and reflect on the events around them, they can - in that small space, at least - decide to take the high road if even only once in their miserable, misbegotten lives.

Maybe NOT leaving the defectors to die? Look, there is no rescue mission for ISIS collaborateurs, we already establed that and nobody is making a secret out of that. The reasons for this are also obvious (risque for soldiers, ...).

But there is also noone else doing this good and self-less deed out of pure altruism. As soon as there is, I take back what I said and apologize. Until then, I stick by what I said.

Quite right - so you're just going to an end run around all that human rights bullshit and leave the defectors to their no doubt terrible fates?

[Anny Nym]

Were the girls from Austria raised Christain, or did they have a connection to Islam before joining Isis?

The parents of both girls are originally from Bosnia and are common quoted as to have fled from the genocide on bosnian muslims during the "Balkan war", so they are probably liberal muslims?

The radicalized ISIS men which at least one of the girls went to for religious studies is not from Bosnia though, but from Chechnya.

[BrownieMomma]

Oh, and one more thing - a small request, really:

For those of you who believe the defectors should remain with ISIS - and to face the justice of ISIS - I would love to hear the unvarnished truth.

Oh no, not merely that you don't want them back, but that you're comfortable with the thought of them facing torture. If that's what you believe, then go all in and have the fucking guts to say it.

Don't dance around it: Say it!

I will say it Burris. With a heavy and grieved heart, it is a horrible thing and I wish it were not this way.

I wish it were feasible to rescue them. I wish I could believe they could live somewhere in this world in safety, without an ISIS target on their backs. I wish I could believe their presence would not present a danger to innocent people.

I hope they are not tortured. I sure wish those girls had made a different choice.

I don't have to be comfortable or feel good in order to make a difficult decision. Sometimes you do that with worst feelings in the world but it is still the best decision under the circumstances.

[It'sFunToRun]

The parents of both girls are originally from Bosnia and are common quoted as to have fled from the genocide on bosnian muslims during the "Balkan war", so they are probably liberal muslims?

The radicalized ISIS men which at least one of the girls went to for religious studies is not from Bosnia though, but from Chechnya.

Ah, okay. That makes a lot more sense. I don't know why that wasn't highlighted more in the news. I guess "Muslim girls in Austria run off to join Muslim terrorist organization" isn't as interesting as "Typical Austrian girls run off to join Muslim terrorist organization! Your daughters could be next!"

[lilith]

Ah, okay. That makes a lot more sense. I don't know why that wasn't highlighted more in the news. I guess "Muslim girls in Austria run off to join Muslim terrorist organization" isn't as interesting as "Typical Austrian girls run off to join Muslim terrorist organization! Your daughters could be next!"

It's also considered in bad taste to bring up cultures of origin in multicultural societies when to do so could cause negative connotations - the Australian teenage boys who have gone to join ISIS are always described as "Australian teenager from city x", never "Australian Afghani Muslim" for example. These girls are legally Austrian, the young men from here are legally Australian, so they are described as such.

(I have no idea if the Australian fighters are from the Australian Afghani community, just using that as an example as I have no idea of their ethnic origins though their surnames would imply that they are the sons or grandsons of Muslim immigrants).