Austria teenage girl jihadis 'want to come home’ from Isil

[Burris]

I the US, we'd take our citizens back, try them for treason, then execute them, at least if they were adults. I'm not sure what would happen to teens. We'd take them back, but then what? We can't let them walk at some point, but we don't sentence 15-year-olds to death.

This sort of thing is too big to just let the person walk without consequences. There'll always be the concern that someone who committed treason once might be part of a plan commit an act of terror by getting someone stationed back inside the country. Traitors pose a huge security risk. I'm not really sure there is much that can be done other than what our countries already to. It's such a huge security risk to so many to take for 1 or 2 people who consciously chose to do this once that such drastic measures are necessary.

Alas for the girls, but this is the way of it: Some choices cannot be unmade. These women will always bear the taint of their worst acts.

My own suggestion would be for them to spend a few months debriefed - and no, that's not a euphemism - by intelligence analysts while under the care of mental health workers, followed by perhaps 10 years closely monitored probation.

If their repudiation of ISIL is genuine, then their words could help prevent other people from romanticizing membership. Even setting important humanitarian cocerns aside, it would be good to give these girls some benefit of the doubt if for no other reason than as a sign post to warn others away.

[Burris]

I say leave them there. These young ladies were not kidnapped. They joined a terrorist group of their own free will. Why should other lives be placed at risk to save theirs? It's sad, but actions have consequences. Maybe they need to be an example to other teens. Why should they be special because they are young, European females? Would anyone try to rescue a 15 year old Syrian boy? It's terrible, but they made their beds. Now they will have to die in them.

If you create a situation wherein these people are trapped in ISIS, as opposed to offering them a humane means of surrender, then it's quite possible many more people will die than just them.

Maybe prison is the best option for those who leave ISIS, but if the West leaves them no avenue of surrender at all, then there's no incentive for them to stop serving ISIS even if they come to hate the organization.

[FreeHannie!]

If you create a situation wherein these people are trapped in ISIS, as opposed to offering them a humane means of surrender, then it's quite possible many more people will die than just them.

Maybe prison is the best option for those who leave ISIS, but if the West leaves them no avenue of surrender at all, then there's no incentive for them to stop serving ISIS even if they come to hate the organization.

Some fundies go 'well, if I am suck being a fundie, might as well be the best fundie princess I can be'.

Girls in this situation might go 'well, if I can't escape ISIS, might as well be the best terrorist I can be'.

[Burris]

Some fundies go 'well, if I am suck being a fundie, might as well be the best fundie princess I can be'.

Girls in this situation might go 'well, if I can't escape ISIS, might as well be the best terrorist I can be'.

It could happen: Leave someone without any good options and that individual will choose among the evils.

[DGayle]

I don't know how to feel about this. I do worry that they could be a danger to the people of their home country as they could be lying about deciding they want to come home and just want to spy or blow stuff up, but they are also just indoctrinated teenage girls who now want out-just like many fundie girls. The only difference is that ISIS is far more dangerous than ATI, as its a terrorist group.....so obviously they shouldn't just be let in and let to go free, but I also don't think they can refuse these kids and let them die out there for wanting to leave and speak out. They are only children after all.

Fundie girls who leave with the plan of infiltrating society wouldn't have the backing of any terrorist group. The problem the Austrian girls have is they can't be trusted at this point, and trusting they aren't doing this as a way to get a foothold back into Austria risks lives. Unfortunately for them, the safety of the many who didn't run to ISIS (you can call that a decision too) outweighs the safety of the 2 girls who decided to split in the night and run to a terrorist group. A lot of decisions teenagers can make have permanent decisions. In this case, their decision happens to have substantial risk, but should the risk be transferred to other people in Austria to let them back in?

We know terrorists will do what they have to to infiltrate other societies. It's not at all unbelievable that ISIS could use these girls like that. The 911 terrorists spent years earning trust in America and even going through flight school and working their way up to pilots. No one had any idea they were connected to a terror organization. These girls made the decision to go join a terror group.

[DGayle]

Some fundies go 'well, if I am suck being a fundie, might as well be the best fundie princess I can be'.

Girls in this situation might go 'well, if I can't escape ISIS, might as well be the best terrorist I can be'.

How can anyone know that trying to get back into Austria isn't part of a terrorist plan? We don't. How do we know that they're genuinely wanting out? We don't. Between keeping them out and letting them back in, which is the better way to ensure the safety of the millions who didn't run off to join ISIS?

Their credibility is shot. As someone else said, no one helps the 15-year-old Syrian boys who want to get away, even if they've never been involved with ISIS. Those girls are white Europeans who chose this.

[It'sFunToRun]

How can anyone know that trying to get back into Austria isn't part of a terrorist plan? We don't. How do we know that they're genuinely wanting out? We don't. Between keeping them out and letting them back in, which is the better way to ensure the safety of the millions who didn't run off to join ISIS?

Their credibility is shot. As someone else said, no one helps the 15-year-old Syrian boys who want to get away, even if they've never been involved with ISIS. Those girls are white Europeans who chose this.

If I choose to go backpacking in South America and I go missing in the mountains, my very awesome country will send search and rescue helicopters to find me (I'm using this example because it happened to someone I met once). If someone who is not from my country does the exact same thing, my country will not send someone to try to rescue them. A country should try to give its citizens benefits and protections that it does not give to non-citizens. That's a good thing.

[Mama Mia]

I feel horrible for these girls families, and for the girls. I can't imagine how much of a wreck I would be if it was my daughter.

But -- I would think that with all the massive Internet and social networking per sense that Isis, and women in Isis have - that the people in charge are well aware the girls are saying they want out. Which makes me think it's just something they are saying so they can get back to a Western country and blow shit up - or recruit more girls.

I think if it was genuine, they would both be dead now. Or at the very least no longer have Internet or phone access.

[formergothardite]

I feel horrible for these girls families, and for the girls. I can't imagine how much of a wreck I would be if it was my daughter.

But -- I would think that with all the massive Internet and social networking per sense that Isis, and women in Isis have - that the people in charge are well aware the girls are saying they want out. Which makes me think it's just something they are saying so they can get back to a Western country and blow shit up - or recruit more girls.

I think if it was genuine, they would both be dead now. Or at the very least no longer have Internet or phone access.

This is how I feel. It is a bad situation, but even if they are being honest and just want to come home, it would be fairly impossible to get them out. Sadly, some bad decisions aren't fixable.

[Anny Nym]

How can anyone know that trying to get back into Austria isn't part of a terrorist plan? We don't. How do we know that they're genuinely wanting out? We don't. Between keeping them out and letting them back in, which is the better way to ensure the safety of the millions who didn't run off to join ISIS?

Their credibility is shot. As someone else said, no one helps the 15-year-old Syrian boys who want to get away, even if they've never been involved with ISIS. Those girls are white Europeans who chose this.

Well spoken, DGayle.

Because that actually is a very major concern and a realistic threat. For Austria, and Germany, and France, and Belgium (Belgium has actually the biggest numbers of dschihadists gone abroad from the continental EU - around 400). And GB, USA, Australia...

Here is an article on it - not breaking link because newssite:

http://rt.com/news/193400-isis-militants-pose-refugees/

Just today, there was a story of an 16 year old male austrian jihadist in the news, who actively called in a video (made in Syria) for ISIS sympathisants in Europe to "slaughter the Kafirn". So what should we do with him, if he states tomorrow "Not liking it here, too much murdering and stuff. Come and get me!" ?

Where you draw the line? One has to settle ground rules that apply on ALL of them, you cannot make exceptions based on prosperity-influenced sentimentality.

[Anny Nym]

If I choose to go backpacking in South America and I go missing in the mountains, my very awesome country will send search and rescue helicopters to find me (I'm using this example because it happened to someone I met once). If someone who is not from my country does the exact same thing, my country will not send someone to try to rescue them. A country should try to give its citizens benefits and protections that it does not give to non-citizens. That's a good thing.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. The oranges being bazookas in this case.

If one goes missing while on vacation abroad, every even half decent country would of course pitch in for a search/rescue mission.

But would your country do the same, if you "convert overnight" and defect to syrian/iraqui territory to fight for ISIS? Hardly...

By whom should the exemplary 15 year old syrian boy be rescued? Assads Syria ?

[Mama Mia]

You are comparing apples and oranges here. The oranges being bazookas in this case.

If one goes missing while on vacation abroad, every even half decent country would of course pitch in for a search/rescue mission.

But would your country do the same, if you "convert overnight" and defect to syrian/iraqui territory to fight for ISIS? Hardly...

By whom should the exemplary 15 year old syrian boy be rescued? Assads Syria ?

I think the question of comparing the 15 year old Syrian Boy and the 15 year old Eurapean Girl is kind of missing the point.

To me, it isn't that the 15 year old boy might not genuinely want out - or the teenage girl. They both might have made legitimately horrendous decisions, and being young and gullible and impulsive gotten in completely over their heads. I feel, emotionally, as a mother that I would want to rescue and " fix" things for both of them. And if this was a traditional sort of war, that might be feasible.

But, it's not a normal sort of war where one country is fighting against another country and the fighting is limited to troops of angry/conscripted/patriotic young men killing each other at set places and times determined by old men looking for more power and more land ( with unfortunate collateral damage of course)

Bringing any of these teens to a country far away from the fighting will likely just bring the fight to wherever they are. A shopping mall. A school yard. Blowing up people, or just recruiting more fighters through the safety of their iPhone.

It's a different sort of fight, and these teens, because of their familiarity with social media and easy access to info on how to blow things up- can cause much more damage than an average solder in more traditional wars.

[FreeHannie!]

I do feel sorry for the girls, and especially their families, but I really think they might just have to leave them there. I think the risks of trying to get them home are too great. It would risk the life of Austrian/EU Soldier to go on the ground and try and rescue them. There is the potential ISIS has put them up to saying 'we want to go home' so they can be put back into Austrian society to recruit more people. Even if they really did just come to regret their decision, I think bringing them home puts too many people at risk. I feel bad saying 'just leave them there' but, I don't see any thing else that can be done.

[Anny Nym]

Feeling sorry, genuinely sorry, for all the teenagers involved with ISIS AND facing the reality of the fact that, in such a situation, there is no point of return - this is of course not mutually exclusive.

[samurai_sarah]

I do feel sorry for the girls, and especially their families, but I really think they might just have to leave them there. I think the risks of trying to get them home are too great. It would risk the life of Austrian/EU Soldier to go on the ground and try and rescue them. There is the potential ISIS has put them up to saying 'we want to go home' so they can be put back into Austrian society to recruit more people. Even if they really did just come to regret their decision, I think bringing them home puts too many people at risk. I feel bad saying 'just leave them there' but, I don't see any thing else that can be done.

Not knowing what is really going on, there is also the potential that this might be more propaganda. Austria saying "no" to a potential return might make it seem, as if the secular world is unforgiving. It might add fuel to the flames.

[DGayle]

If I choose to go backpacking in South America and I go missing in the mountains, my very awesome country will send search and rescue helicopters to find me (I'm using this example because it happened to someone I met once). If someone who is not from my country does the exact same thing, my country will not send someone to try to rescue them. A country should try to give its citizens benefits and protections that it does not give to non-citizens. That's a good thing.

There is a huge difference between getting lost on a backpacking trip, and running away with the sole intent of joining a terrorist organization.

[DGayle]

I think the question of comparing the 15 year old Syrian Boy and the 15 year old Eurapean Girl is kind of missing the point.

To me, it isn't that the 15 year old boy might not genuinely want out - or the teenage girl. They both might have made legitimately horrendous decisions, and being young and gullible and impulsive gotten in completely over their heads. I feel, emotionally, as a mother that I would want to rescue and " fix" things for both of them. And if this was a traditional sort of war, that might be feasible.

The Syrian boy in the examples is a boy who hasn't been involved in a terrorist group.

Why should a 15-year-old Syrian boy who hasn't been involved in terrorism be overlooked while there's all kinds of help to be had for 15-year-old white Austrian girls who chose to leave home to go join a terrorist group? By virtue of the dirt was was born over? They had no choice in that. They all had choices about joining terrorist groups. Why should there be help only for the ones who chose to join?

[DGayle]

I would think that with all the massive Internet and social networking per sense that Isis, and women in Isis have - that the people in charge are well aware the girls are saying they want out. Which makes me think it's just something they are saying so they can get back to a Western country and blow shit up - or recruit more girls.

I think if it was genuine, they would both be dead now. Or at the very least no longer have Internet or phone access.

This is one of my concerns. Why haven't they been silenced? Why are they being allowed such liberal social network access in a country where women are lucky to ever get to even touch a computer? The risks to bringing these girls back is too great. Military troop would have to go in there and find them, and probably die, boys who are only a year or two older than the older girl. Why should those soldier boys die to save the asses of a couple girls who chose their path? And if the girls were set free all on their own (level with me---when has terrorist groups ever just let women or girls, especially pregnant with their babies, just walk free without a hitch?), there would be concern the girls are being used as beacons so that soldiers can be blown up.

But they have this social network access and are saying unflattering things about the group. It's pretty clear they have permission.

[DGayle]

Not knowing what is really going on, there is also the potential that this might be more propaganda. Austria saying "no" to a potential return might make it seem, as if the secular world is unforgiving. It might add fuel to the flames.

I think it's more likely to send the message that if you choose to go join terrorist groups, don't expect your home country to send in soldiers to save you, so think twice.

[It'sFunToRun]

There is a huge difference between getting lost on a backpacking trip, and running away with the sole intent of joining a terrorist organization.

I'm not saying that Austria should go save them because it's like saving backpackers, I'm saying that it's perfectly reasonable that people want Austria to do more for Austrian teenagers than for Syrian teenagers, and that that is a good thing.

Being a member of a country should get you privileges and protections that non-citizens don't get. Saying "but what about Syrian boys?" could just as well be applied to anything that US citizens get. Why should US teens get US education and health care, but Syrian boys not? Because one group is US citizens and the other isn't! There's no hypocrisy or double standard here; it's not like people are expecting the Syrian government to save the Austrian girls.

[Marianne]

The duty of a country is to protect and help ALL of his citizens. Periods. This girls can be punished after being rescued. But letting them in Syria, without even trying, it's cowardice.

Terrorist women in Syria have a big access on internet, so they can recruit other girls.

[It'sFunToRun]

I think the question of comparing the 15 year old Syrian Boy and the 15 year old Eurapean Girl is kind of missing the point.

To me, it isn't that the 15 year old boy might not genuinely want out - or the teenage girl. They both might have made legitimately horrendous decisions, and being young and gullible and impulsive gotten in completely over their heads. I feel, emotionally, as a mother that I would want to rescue and " fix" things for both of them. And if this was a traditional sort of war, that might be feasible.

But, it's not a normal sort of war where one country is fighting against another country and the fighting is limited to troops of angry/conscripted/patriotic young men killing each other at set places and times determined by old men looking for more power and more land ( with unfortunate collateral damage of course)

I don't follow the politics of other countries' wars very closely, so your summary might hold true for them, but just so you know, in my country our last war was supported by all the citizens including the left wing because it was just so obvious that the terrorists were looking to mass murder our civilians, men, women, and children, and that if we didn't stop them that's what they would do. The young men (and women!) in our military were the ones most willing for this war to happen because they were raised to be heroes and put the lives of civilians first, and they feel a debt to pay back to the soldiers who protected them when they were children themselves, and a debt to pay forward for the future generations who will defend our country.

The old men (and women!) were the ones most reluctant to go to war and needed the most convincing because they didn't want to lose their sons (and daughters!) and the politicians didn't want to deal with the backlash of having soldiers die.

[Anny Nym]

The duty of a country is to protect and help ALL of his citizens. Periods. This girls can be punished after being rescued. But letting them in Syria, without even trying, it's cowardice.

Terrorist women in Syria have a big access on internet, so they can recruit other girls.

It is always easy to do the big talking about what others should do or what others are behind the coziness of a computer keyboard, isn´t it Marianne ? :lol:

How many of the french teenage jihadists in Syria did France bring actively back until now, by the way?

[Marianne]

It is always easy to do the big talking about what others should do or what others are behind the coziness of a computer keyboard, isn´t it Marianne ? :lol:

How many of the french teenage jihadists in Syria did France bring actively back until now, by the way?

There have been action taken to protect them, especially to protect young children that a family of 11 members recently took with them ( children = babies under 5 years). A free telephone line was opened for families who suspect of having a jihadist child. And when we have hostages (I think about Herve Gourdel, although he was assassinated ), we do not let them decapitated. Even if we sometimes fail, we try to protect them, because they are our citizens. I would love to see the government of François Hollande to take more military actions to help our citizens here and bring them back, but I guess the US don't want to.

[Mama Mia]

The Syrian boy in the examples is a boy who hasn't been involved in a terrorist group.

Why should a 15-year-old Syrian boy who hasn't been involved in terrorism be overlooked while there's all kinds of help to be had for 15-year-old white Austrian girls who chose to leave home to go join a terrorist group? By virtue of the dirt was was born over? They had no choice in that. They all had choices about joining terrorist groups. Why should there be help only for the ones who chose to join?

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought the boy in the examples was similar to the girls --initially infatuated with the terrorist groups - but then having a change of heart.

I think using a kid from the country the terrorists are in kind of makes for a bad comparison though. Isn't the whole idea of sending anyone fighting against ISIS in Syria to save the people of that country? So if the 15 year old boy isn't involved with them anymore - he would be "saved" to the same extent as anyone else in Syria -- if the Coalition wins, and he hasn't been killed yet, presumably he could go about living his life.

Now if the comparison you were making was between the two European white girls, and a European, brown boy and you think the publics reaction would be different....that would make more sense. Although it's still more likely the boy had actually participated in terrorist activities as a soldier. Plus you have the added dilema of the babies the girls are carrying.

But I think it's, sadly, too risky to make a special effort to rescue any of them.

Eta: oh my goodness, just looked at their photos - they are babies! Seeing the photo really pointed out, to me, how very, very young they are! Their poor, poor parents!