Austria teenage girl jihadis 'want to come home’ from Isil

[samurai_sarah]

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere. If it is, I apologize, and could a mod please merge?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -Isil.html (not broken, because it's a news site)

By Damien McElroy

5:36PM BST 10 Oct 2014

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Samra Kesinovic, 17, and Sabina Selimovic, 15, had been dubbed poster girls for the jihadist groups after fleeing to Raqqa in central Syria. They have since married foreign fighters in the city and become pregnant.

But the city’s strict Islamic lifestyle has turned sour for the girls, who want to return to Europe.

They have contacted their loved ones and told them they are sick of living with the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) jihadis.

But they also said they don’t feel they can flee from their unwanted new life because too many people now associate them with Isil.

Austrian officials have said the girls have discussed going back home but that the country’s current laws were blocking their return.

“The main problem is about people coming back to Austria,†said Karl-Heinz Grundboeck, the Austrian interior ministry spokesman said. “Once they leave, it is almost impossible.â€

Kesinovic and Selimovic grew up in Vienna with western freedoms that are now restricted by Islamist rules. As women they cannot talk to who they like, freely give opinions or wearing revealing clothing.

Those arduous rules have begun to chafe, prompting a change of heart that contrasts with the defiant note they left behind for their parents when they fled back in April.

It read: “Don’t look for us. We will serve Allah — and we will die for him.â€

Social media accounts believed to belong to the girls initially portrayed great enthusiasm for the life in Syria, posting pictures and claiming they were enjoying an adventure.

They posted on social media photographs of themselves handling assault weapons and wearing black, full-length burkas.

They are thought to have travelled to Turkey and then to have crossed the border into Syria, having become radicalised after attending a local mosque in Vienna and reading about jihad on the internet.

[Anny Nym]

Very sad, as war is in general.

http://www.krone.at/Oesterreich/Wollen_ ... ory-422787

There are photos of the 2 girls in question published. Link is of a austrian newspaper.

For the legal aspect of this case: Austria, a person who is involved in war activities in another country will automatically lose citizenship. And this law will certainly neither be bent or loosen up anytime soon.

And now for the practical aspect: Well, they are currently sitting God-knows-who in Syria, it would be utter irresponsible to send a "rescue troop" there due to the exceptionally high chance of fatal failure of such one.

The case of the viennes girls was part of quite a few political discussions I attended lately, and - as heartwrenching this is for the parents and the girls themselves - this will likely end bad. You know what I´m talking about.

The only thing we yould do is to examine this present case, as it may help us to understand which kind of "ban" roped in large numbers of youths into sheer suicidal missions and a cruel fate in the 20th century.

[DGayle]

I the US, we'd take our citizens back, try them for treason, then execute them, at least if they were adults. I'm not sure what would happen to teens. We'd take them back, but then what? We can't let them walk at some point, but we don't sentence 15-year-olds to death.

This sort of thing is too big to just let the person walk without consequences. There'll always be the concern that someone who committed treason once might be part of a plan commit an act of terror by getting someone stationed back inside the country. Traitors pose a huge security risk. I'm not really sure there is much that can be done other than what our countries already to. It's such a huge security risk to so many to take for 1 or 2 people who consciously chose to do this once that such drastic measures are necessary.

[samurai_sarah]

Very sad, as war is in general.

http://www.krone.at/Oesterreich/Wollen_ ... ory-422787

There are photos of the 2 girls in question published. Link is of a austrian newspaper.

For the legal aspect of this case: Austria, a person who is involved in war activities in another country will automatically lose citizenship. And this law will certainly neither be bent or loosen up anytime soon.

And now for the practical aspect: Well, they are currently sitting God-knows-who in Syria, it would be utter irresponsible to send a "rescue troop" there due to the exceptionally high chance of fatal failure of such one.

The case of the viennes girls was part of quite a few political discussions I attended lately, and - as heartwrenching this is for the parents and the girls themselves - this will likely end bad. You know what I´m talking about.

The only thing we yould do is to examine this present case, as it may help us to understand which kind of "ban" roped in large numbers of youths into sheer suicidal missions and a cruel fate in the 20th century.

Thanks, I did wonder about the legal aspects. That wasn't particularly clear from any of the articles that I read, and I couldn't find an Austrian one that explained it. Thanks for explaining!

[Anny Nym]

You are welcome, @samurai_sarah :)

[Anny Nym]

I the US, we'd take our citizens back, try them for treason, then execute them, at least if they were adults. I'm not sure what would happen to teens. We'd take them back, but then what? We can't let them walk at some point, but we don't sentence 15-year-olds to death.

This sort of thing is too big to just let the person walk without consequences. There'll always be the concern that someone who committed treason once might be part of a plan commit an act of terror by getting someone stationed back inside the country. Traitors pose a huge security risk. I'm not really sure there is much that can be done other than what our countries already to. It's such a huge security risk to so many to take for 1 or 2 people who consciously chose to do this once that such drastic measures are necessary.

This would be a terrible dilemma indeed! I have little doubt the girls are already dellusioned, so even is they walk off free after letssay serving a sentence in juvenile prison (which is highly debattable if this is even remotely the right way to treat "overly enthusiastic children, fallen with the wrong crowd", NO! in my opinion by the way) what life would there be possible ahead of them if they would make it back through some adventurous ways? A very short one probably, as ISIS people woud would certainly try to take away with them. Because one doesn´t just abadon ISIS and the girls probably know one or two things.

A terror group is no pony ranch.

My father recently stated, "Under Kreisky this wouldn´t have happened. And neither with Arafat still alive." I think he is right.

[lilith]

Have these girls committed treason? Is marrying a fighter in an army that your country is kind of but not really officially at war with treason? I very much doubt that they have actually participated in any acts of violence or espionage.

That said, even if Austria was willing to welcome them back with open arms, is ISIS really going to let their poster girl western trophy wives just wander back home, with their militant husband's babies in utero? I don't see it, and if these girls keep publicly making statements that aren't supportive of The Islamic State and its treatment of women I don't see things ending well for them.

Teenage girls have run off to join "freedom fighters" in many conflicts - it's a romantic ideal. Isn't it generally viewed as collaboration rather than treason?

[16strong]

I'm really not sure how I feel about this situation.

On one hand they are immature teenagers that made a very stupid decision. On the other hand, they did join up with a terrorist organization.

If they are forced to stay, they will have to pay for the rest of their lives for something they did when they were young. But I suppose teenagers have done things like kill and rob banks that also put them in jail for a very long time.

In one sense, they were old enough to know what they were doing, but in another, they were too immature to realize fully the consequences of the actions they took. Their age makes this a very sticky situation. I say take them back, but not before it is determined that they have no contact whatsoever with the group they fled and also they should have to be monitored to make sure they do not rejoin. But I have always had a heart, even for stupid people. :embarrassed:

[DGayle]

Have these girls committed treason? Is marrying a fighter in an army that your country is kind of but not really officially at war with treason? I very much doubt that they have actually participated in any acts of violence or espionage.

That said, even if Austria was willing to welcome them back with open arms, is ISIS really going to let their poster girl western trophy wives just wander back home, with their militant husband's babies in utero? I don't see it, and if these girls keep publicly making statements that aren't supportive of The Islamic State and its treatment of women I don't see things ending well for them.

Teenage girls have run off to join "freedom fighters" in many conflicts - it's a romantic ideal. Isn't it generally viewed as collaboration rather than treason?

They've sworn a willingness to die for Allah. This gives some reason to think they'll have had some involvement in activities, even if those activities are just to support their husbands and help hem relax before they go kill people.

And something I just thought of is if those girls are still alive, then that's suspicious. ISIS isn't known to tolerating anyone speaking against them. If they're alive, then both communication has been allowed, and ISIS is respecting free speech of women instead of killing them. Suspicious.

[lilith]

They've sworn a willingness to die for Allah. This gives some reason to think they'll have had some involvement in activities, even if those activities are just to support their husbands and help hem relax before they go kill people.

And something I just thought of is if those girls are still alive, then that's suspicious. ISIS isn't known to tolerating anyone speaking against them. If they're alive, then both communication has been allowed, and ISIS is respecting free speech of women instead of killing them. Suspicious.

Agreed.

I'm just curious if they could have technically committed treason when ISIS isn't officially a state, Austria isn't officially at war with ISIS, and there is not evidence they have committed an act of violence or espionage against Austria.

It's one of the difficulties of the "war on terror" - the enemy isn't a state and many of the usual rules of war aren't easy to apply - thus the difficulty with Guantanamo and charging and/or repatriating its inmates.

[Anny Nym]

... [...]...

Agreed.

I'm just curious if they could have technically committed treason when ISIS isn't officially a state, Austria isn't officially at war with ISIS, and there is not evidence they have committed an act of violence or espionage against Austria.

It's one of the difficulties of the "war on terror" - the enemy isn't a state and many of the usual rules of war aren't easy to apply - thus the difficulty with Guantanamo and charging and/or repatriating its inmates.

Th austrian charge wouldn´t be (or most unlikely be) "Vaterlandsverrat/Landesverrat" which translates into the american meaning of treason which I think DGayle was writing about in the given exampe about trial and charge in the USA in the earlier posting.

Things are done a bit different in Austria due to our position as a neutral state.

The commited offence might be against §33 of austrian federal law, section citizenship, saying if a citizen participates in actions of any nature under foreign flag, that may severly damage the credibility of the Republic of Austria, this citizen will lose citizenship.

The following things are common understand as to severly damage the credibility of the Republic of Austria: participating in war-like actions within a foreign army, participating in/collaborating with terrorist organisations , crimes of war, crimes of especially abject nature, etc.

Maybe also §32, which states explicit, that citizenship will be lost if the person in question joins a foreign army of any kind (UNO peace corps does NOT fall under this law).

Currently there are 60 ISIS jihadists back in Austria: They came back on their own and got arrested instantly by our Stapo ( Stapo = like FBI, Scotland Yard in Austria) and are imprisoned, their current state and upcoming fate is unknown at the moment. I would put high bets on extradition to Russia although.

[lilith]

Th austrian charge wouldn´t be (or most unlikely be) "Vaterlandsverrat/Landesverrat" which translates into the american meaning of treason which I think DGayle was writing about in the given exampe about trial and charge in the USA in the earlier posting.

Things are done a bit different in Austria due to our position as a neutral state.

The commited offence might be against §33 of austrian federal law, section citizenship, saying if a citizen participates in actions of any nature under foreign flag, that may severly damage the credibility of the Republic of Austria, this citizen will lose citizenship.

The following things are common understand as to severly damage the credibility of the Republic of Austria: participating in war-like actions within a foreign army, participating in/collaborating with terrorist organisations , crimes of war, crimes of especially abject nature, etc.

Maybe also §32, which states explicit, that citizenship will be lost if the person in question joins a foreign army of any kind (UNO peace corps does NOT fall under this law).

Currently there are 60 ISIS jihadists back in Austria: They came back on their own and got arrested instantly by our Stapo ( Stapo = like FBI, Scotland Yard in Austria) and are imprisoned, their current state and upcoming fate is unknown at the moment. I would put high bets on extradition to Russia although.

Thankyou for your explanation.

Why would the returned ISIS fighters be extradited to Russia though?

[Anny Nym]

...

Why would the returned ISIS fighters be extradited to Russia though?

It´s said that most of them are of Chechen origin and the austrian/russian cooperation in such cases is "berüchtigterweise vorbildlich" /"notoriously known as being exemplary" as we say here. :lol:

I´m just talking IMO here, to point out! :D

[Full enough quiver]

I say leave them there. These young ladies were not kidnapped. They joined a terrorist group of their own free will. Why should other lives be placed at risk to save theirs? It's sad, but actions have consequences. Maybe they need to be an example to other teens. Why should they be special because they are young, European females? Would anyone try to rescue a 15 year old Syrian boy? It's terrible, but they made their beds. Now they will have to die in them.

[FreeHannie!]

Maybe I'm a bleeding heart, but I wonder if we know the full story. I wouldn't be surprised if they were coerced into going in pressured to leave the note with those words. My best friend is an International Relations Masters student and was saying that Interpol believes they were tricked into going.

And even if they weren't, they were indeed very stupid, but I definitely did some stupid crap in the name of 'love' at 16, thankfully nothing that public or drastic though. I don't know what to do. It sets a dangerous precedent letting them back. Would people be as sympathetic and willing to let them come home if they were boys? Or if they were 10 years older? Where do you draw the line?

[It'sFunToRun]

I'm surprised that they are allowed to say "we don't like it here and want to come back home". Maybe they only got away with it because the male Islamic militants didn't understand German (or whatever language the girls wrote in), but it seems likely that now that it's in the news, it will get translated into Arabic and will get back to them. I see one of the following scenarios:

(1) The male militants didn't understand German so they allowed the girls to write that and:

(a) They don't read the secular news so even though it will get translated to Arabic they won't here about it, and the girls won't get punished.

(b) They will hear about it and punish the girls. They won't put them to death because they have too much value as European broodmares, but they will be thrown into dungeons and raped and used for breeding more Islamic terrorists only.

(2) The girls are utterly brainwashed, are full-fledged Muslim terrorists themselves, and want to go back to Austria to blow up the infidels.

In the best case scenario, the girls will be able to escape to Turkey and get abortions, or at least will figure out how to do DIY abortions in Syria, which will give them more time to figure out an escape. Once they have a kid, the chances of escape will plummet.

[It'sFunToRun]

I know that the term "pro-abortion" is usually used by pro-life people as an insult for pro-choice people, but sometimes, like now, I think that I really am pro-abortion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the girls should be forced to have abortions, but I think that abortion is clearly the best solution in this case.

If I were held captive by terrorists and impregnated, I would do everything in my power to cause an abortion, even at extreme risk to my own health, because I know that the chance of escaping with a baby, or worse, six children aged 5 months to 11 years, is very very small.

I can't say since it's never happened to me, but if I were date raped, or raped "on the street", and got pregnant, but wasn't held captive, then I feel like I would probably keep the pregnancy because I really want kids.

[samurai_sarah]

I'm surprised that they are allowed to say "we don't like it here and want to come back home". Maybe they only got away with it because the male Islamic militants didn't understand German (or whatever language the girls wrote in), but it seems likely that now that it's in the news, it will get translated into Arabic and will get back to them. I see one of the following scenarios:

(1) The male militants didn't understand German so they allowed the girls to write that and:

(a) They don't read the secular news so even though it will get translated to Arabic they won't here about it, and the girls won't get punished.

(b) They will hear about it and punish the girls. They won't put them to death because they have too much value as European broodmares, but they will be thrown into dungeons and raped and used for breeding more Islamic terrorists only.

(2) The girls are utterly brainwashed, are full-fledged Muslim terrorists themselves, and want to go back to Austria to blow up the infidels.

In the best case scenario, the girls will be able to escape to Turkey and get abortions, or at least will figure out how to do DIY abortions in Syria, which will give them more time to figure out an escape. Once they have a kid, the chances of escape will plummet.

Some of the German-speaking news said that one of the girls had found a secret way of communication. They also said that she estimated her chances of actually escaping as impossible. ISIS will know about both issues by now.

[FreeHannie!]

Yeah, I think when that Austrian minister says the hard part is coming back, he means those girls actually being able to escape, get to an airport and get on a flight to Austria, not the legalities of letting them in.

[Anny Nym]

Maybe I'm a bleeding heart, but I wonder if we know the full story. I wouldn't be surprised if they were coerced into going in pressured to leave the note with those words. My best friend is an International Relations Masters student and was saying that Interpol believes they were tricked into going.

And even if they weren't, they were indeed very stupid, but I definitely did some stupid crap in the name of 'love' at 16, thankfully nothing that public or drastic though. I don't know what to do. It sets a dangerous precedent letting them back. Would people be as sympathetic and willing to let them come home if they were boys? Or if they were 10 years older? Where do you draw the line?

Of course they were tricked at some point! One does not get up in the morning and thinks "Hmmm... today, I have to do my math homework then I´ll buy some nail polish and what else... oh yeah, I´ll go and join ISIS!"

No. It was a all too much common mix of appealing to the state of mind of the average teenager. Most likely the romantic one, in case of the girls (the "husbands" were for sure no Quasimodos), the usual brainwashing and indoctrination and probably threats of violence at some point after they were already out of the country.

One does for sure not need Interpol to count 2 and 2 together in this case. Nothing against the hard work of Interpol though.

I´d liketo point this out for better understandment of this case: people in Austria feel, for the vast mayority, sympathy for the family to some extend and pity for the girls, as it is always sad if youths get roped in with terror organisations.

However, this DOES NOT translate into "letting them back" or, if they make it back on their own, let them off the hook scot-free, God forbid. As we discussed earlier this would be against the law anyway.

ISIS is a agression organisation, not a liberation organisation! While in the case of the latter, one could come around and argument, for example, "Well, it´s not very pretty and acts of violence are always to condemn. Although they did it to -letssay - fight in their motherland to free their people from imperialism. From ine point or another, their chain of thoughts is comprehensible."

This is not the case with ISIS, there is no comprehensibility applicable with them.

So not even the most woolly- headed specimen of politicans, institutions or NGOs would make such a request. Okay, maybe some as there are some VERY woolly-headed one here and there...

It´s also a question of political decisions in Austria. I mean, come on, after that disastrous 2014 ...if the girls (or any other police-known ISIS jihadist) are able to walk around free... well, why even bother to wait for votes in 2018 and pretend? :lol:

[ILoveJellybeans]

I don't know how to feel about this. I do worry that they could be a danger to the people of their home country as they could be lying about deciding they want to come home and just want to spy or blow stuff up, but they are also just indoctrinated teenage girls who now want out-just like many fundie girls. The only difference is that ISIS is far more dangerous than ATI, as its a terrorist group.....so obviously they shouldn't just be let in and let to go free, but I also don't think they can refuse these kids and let them die out there for wanting to leave and speak out. They are only children after all.

[Anny Nym]

Of course they can.

[It'sFunToRun]

I think that even if they were adults they should be able to "come home". Being a sex slave and brood mare for terrorists is not an appropriate punishment (or "consequence") for any crime.

The question that needs to be asked is whether the Austrian government should go out of its way to bring them home, or merely allow them to re-enter if they independently manage to escape, and if they do escape, what should Austria do to them? I'm assuming they haven't actually murdered anyone themselves, and have only had sex with murderers, so I think an appropriate consequence would be to put them in a mental health hospital for a year or so, to make sure that they really have no intent to commit terrorism and to help them get over the trauma they must have.

[crazyforkate]

Ehhh, punitive mental health treatment is really ethically sketchy. They should have some kind of supervision, though, such as Internet monitoring or a travel ban or having to check in regularly with the authorities.

[Anny Nym]

Mental hospital or not, supervision or checking in with the autorities.... that all just our idle personal point of view within a discussion.

Nothing of that kind will happen.

"Rescuing them" isn´t even a point of discussion in Austria.

And while a TV news broadcast , it was already stated that they would be charged with "Mitgliedschaft in einer terroristischen Organisation“/"membership in a terrorist organization".

Btw, I discussed that topic with some friends today and it came up that both sets of parents are apparently from Bosnia and arrived here in the mid/end nineties. So it is even questionable if they or the girls have austrian citizenship after all. Austrian citizenship process works different than zB american ones. In Austria, you need a minimum stay of 10 years + other requirements to be able to apply for full citizenship. Children are NOT automatically austrian citizens, just because they are born here. It depends on the current state of their parents.

It is unknown, if their parents are regular citizens. Or if the girls are. Maybe it turns out they are Bosnias problem if they would make it back.