JB & J'Chelle's Weird Obsession with Sex, Affection & Purity

[LongDogMom]

I know, I know, they are Fundamental Christians and staying a virgin until your wedding night is expected, but the lengths that the Duggars go to, not just in the Courting Rules, but also in bathing suit wear for the girls, and their emphasis on no frontal hugs, no dancing... it all leads to tempting impure thoughts (according to them).

 

Is it just me, or does it almost feel like they put so much focus on trying not to have sex, or even stuff they feel encourages sexual/lustful feelings, that it's like that's all it seems to be about. It's almost like it's got a spotlight on it when even innocent affection like holding hands or dancing suddenly is verboten because it might lead to MORE. And JB & J'Chelle dry humping on the mini golf course when on a double date with Ben and Jessa. I mean, who does that?! I would never humiliate my child like that, plus no one wants to be reminded that they are having sex or given a demonstration over mini golf. It's like that and God is their whole focus instead of marriage being about establishing a true friendship and intimacy with your spouse.

 

They don't even seem to be very affectionate or genuinely connected to the kids. It all feels so surface and fake. Everything is always about being Godly and their Faith and not creating lustful thoughts. It's just weird. Not to mention all the "So, what you think? Do you like him/her?" all the time when they barely know one another and are never alone anyways.

 

I also find this crap about giving away pieces of your heart illogical. How is courting any better than dating. If anything, courting would be more hurtful if it didn't work out because it's taken so very seriously with marriage as the intended outcome. Whereas dating isn't always assumed to be all that serious early on or at least not until the couple feels they know each other well. Courting doesn't always work out and people still get hurt. I found it strange that Jessa and Ben were saying I Love You to each other but it wasn't okay to hold hands?! To me, saying I love you is much more intimate than holding hands. Plus publicly calling herself Jessa Seewald before they were even engaged? I mean even if they know that marriage is what's expected, I still think it'[s inappropriate to publicly start calling yourself that until you're married. I just find it strange how they cross some boundaries that most of the women I know wouldn't do in dating, and yet other stuff that is so innocent that it's barely even considered intimacy, like hand-holding, is not allowed.

 

Just feels like way too much emphasis on the physical, on lust and purity and clearly a fear that they would have no self control if allowed to dance or hug face to face or hold hands! It makes me feel like Jessa and Ben are so eager to marry just so they can touch and have sex that beyond being attracted to each other physically, the rest doesn't seem important. And then, no birth control, so you rush into marriage so you can have intimacy and then are probably pregnant within the first six months so you still barely have time to become a couple and really know each other. It's like Jim Bob and Michelle really don't care at all about their kids emotional well being or true happiness as long as they tow the partyline.

[Ivycoveredtower]

I know, I know, they are Fundamental Christians and staying a virgin until your wedding night is expected, but the lengths that the Duggars go to, not just in the Courting Rules, but also in bathing suit wear for the girls, and their emphasis on no frontal hugs, no dancing... it all leads to tempting impure thoughts (according to them).

Is it just me, or does it almost feel like they put so much focus on trying not to have sex, or even stuff they feel encourages sexual/lustful feelings, that it's like that's all it seems to be about. It's almost like it's got a spotlight on it when even innocent affection like holding hands or dancing suddenly is verboten because it might lead to MORE. And JB & J'Chelle dry humping on the mini golf course when on a double date with Ben and Jessa. I mean, who does that?! I would never humiliate my child like that, plus no one wants to be reminded that they are having sex or given a demonstration over mini golf. It's like that and God is their whole focus instead of marriage being about establishing a true friendship and intimacy with your spouse.

They don't even seem to be very affectionate or genuinely connected to the kids. It all feels so surface and fake. Everything is always about being Godly and their Faith and not creating lustful thoughts. It's just weird. Not to mention all the "So, what you think? Do you like him/her?" all the time when they barely know one another and are never alone anyways.

I also find this crap about giving away pieces of your heart illogical. How is courting any better than dating. If anything, courting would be more hurtful if it didn't work out because it's taken so very seriously with marriage as the intended outcome. Whereas dating isn't always assumed to be all that serious early on or at least not until the couple feels they know each other well. Courting doesn't always work out and people still get hurt. I found it strange that Jessa and Ben were saying I Love You to each other but it wasn't okay to hold hands?! To me, saying I love you is much more intimate than holding hands. Plus publicly calling herself Jessa Seewald before they were even engaged? I mean even if they know that marriage is what's expected, I still think it'[s inappropriate to publicly start calling yourself that until you're married. I just find it strange how they cross some boundaries that most of the women I know wouldn't do in dating, and yet other stuff that is so innocent that it's barely even considered intimacy, like hand-holding, is not allowed.

Just feels like way too much emphasis on the physical, on lust and purity and clearly a fear that they would have no self control if allowed to dance or hug face to face or hold hands! It makes me feel like Jessa and Ben are so eager to marry just so they can touch and have sex that beyond being attracted to each other physically, the rest doesn't seem important. And then, no birth control, so you rush into marriage so you can have intimacy and then are probably pregnant within the first six months so you still barely have time to become a couple and really know each other. It's like Jim Bob and Michelle really don't care at all about their kids emotional well being or true happiness as long as they tow the partyline.

All the courting stuff spot on. I agree 100% with the I love you stuff she obviously gave away a piece of her heart then, I find it interesting that the Bates family isn't as strict. you can see Micheal and Brandon who are not engaged holding hands and being close to each other.

[gustava]

Yup.

[Four is Enough]

Of the blogs I've read, the photos I've seen, it seems the Duggars are the absolute worst with the "purity" issue. IMO, they have taken it much further than it was ever supposed to have been taken. Is this from GotHard? Or some other source? I do think JB has done something mentally to M, because of his many comments about her being progressive (ie a normal teenager) before they got together. She seems to be WAY off point in what constitutes modesty. Trying to cover up the shoulders of a toddler is ridiculous. The side hugs are the strangest way to convey love that I have ever seen.

[moreorlessnu]

JB & Michelle need some sort of "hook" to keep the show on the air. Every time they mention purity/courtship/etc., people are curious and ask questions. If they relaxed their rules, there would be much less interest in these couples.

It always seems to me that Michelle doesn't really understand her own idea of purity/courtship and she demonstrated this by trying to cover Josie's shoulders during that interview after Jill's wedding.

[Toothfairy]

The Duggars are trying to show they're better than everyone else. Courtship is just the same as dating but worse. It leads to more heartbreak since god was suppose to choose your other half and allow you to marry.

And since the Duggars love talking about sex and flauting their sexuallity that means they think about it all the time. The Bates are much more better than the Duggars on their whole courtship purity stuff

[Ivycoveredtower]

The Duggars are trying to show they're better than everyone else. Courtship is just the same as dating but worse. It leads to more heartbreak since god was suppose to choose your other half and allow you to marry.

And since the Duggars love talking about sex and faulting their sexuallity that means they think about it all the time. The Bates are much more better than the Duggars on their whole courtship purity stuff

You know I always wonder are they allowed to dance after marriage I mean they can now "Righteously fulfill the desires that dancing supposedly brings up. :dance:

[It'sFunToRun]

JB & Michelle need some sort of "hook" to keep the show on the air. Every time they mention purity/courtship/etc., people are curious and ask questions. If they relaxed their rules, there would be much less interest in these couples.

It always seems to me that Michelle doesn't really understand her own idea of purity/courtship and she demonstrated this by trying to cover Josie's shoulders during that interview after Jill's wedding.

I hate defending Nutschelle, but in the video where she tries to cover Josie's shoulders, I thought she was fine. She was completely calm, nonplussed, and kinda made a joke of it "speaking of modesty...", then she let it go and didn't say anything to Josie. I bet she would have lectured Josie if the camera wasn't there, but the fact that she is at least able to stay calm and normal in front of the camera says something. I don't think even the Pearls would start beating a child right then and there, but I think you'd see the rage in their eyes.

[Rescinded and Mended]

That's another thing that bugs me. We can't see Precious Miracle Baby's shoulders or Michelle's kneecaps while she's waterskiing, but it's totally okay for her sons to watch her give birth on camera?

Yep, she's certainly nailed the concept of modesty, all right.

[LongDogMom]

It always seems to me that Michelle doesn't really understand her own idea of purity/courtship and she demonstrated this by trying to cover Josie's shoulders during that interview after Jill's wedding.

That's what I mean though...no one thinks anything sexual about a toddler's shoulders (unless they are some kind of sick pedo) but by making a point of covering up Josie's shoulders it draws attention to it in a way that is not normal. Are they worried that her uncovered shoulders might inspire lustful thoughts (Ewwww) or is it about God liking it that way, and if so...where is it written that shoulders or knees are immodest or that God likes women (and girl-children) better with those covered?

Maybe it's just training them early so they never know any different. But like with the side-hugs... okay if the explanation is that front hugs could lead courting couples to have lustful thoughts which could make it harder for them to stay committed to not touching before engagement/marriage, then why can't they hug the little kids or friends that come over? Why always a side hug? I think that is strange.

[LongDogMom]

You know I always wonder are they allowed to dance after marriage I mean they can now "Righteously fulfill the desires that dancing supposedly brings up.

I know, right! They say they do things that way (no dancing, no kissing, no front hugs, etc. to help couples refrain from those lustful thoughts they cannot "righteously fulfill" but once married, why can't they? So the rules of courtship dominate their lives on a continual basis in public I guess...except of course that once married they kiss and dry-hump and crow about pegnancies and getting pregnant all the time. It all just seems so backward and illogical to me.

[Mitz_]

That's what I mean though...no one thinks anything sexual about a toddler's shoulders (unless they are some kind of sick pedo) but by making a point of covering up Josie's shoulders it draws attention to it in a way that is not normal. Are they worried that her uncovered shoulders might inspire lustful thoughts (Ewwww) or is it about God liking it that way, and if so...where is it written that shoulders or knees are immodest or that God likes women (and girl-children) better with those covered?

Maybe it's just training them early so they never know any different. But like with the side-hugs... okay if the explanation is that front hugs could lead courting couples to have lustful thoughts which could make it harder for them to stay committed to not touching before engagement/marriage, then why can't they hug the little kids or friends that come over? Why always a side hug? I think that is strange.

I've seen so many clips where they are like " oh, side hug! ...haha" like it's something they just made up to do for the cameras to make them more speshul. If it was part of their everyday thing they would be comfortable and secure in it. But no, even they know it's ridiculous.

And why would they worry about child's bare shoulders when when Jessa's defrauding knees are visible most of the time now? Their dresses used to be ankle length when they were first being " modest" . It's all for show, they are so dishonest but it keeps the leg humpers happy.

Same thing with everyone squished into Ben Boy's little truck, in the last trip (with Jason?), Ben Boy say's that it will be their "date truck" ...we know that Jessa probably has a full size SUV or van that gets left in the parking lot so that we can watch Ben trying to shift gears without touching Michelle's boob or or even better, Jason's witty quips.

As for pieces of the heart, just substitute " hymen" for ""heart" like others have suggested and it will all make sence.

A lot of what they are trying to sell is B.S. We just have to sort through it and hopefully get a laugh while we wait for little Jenny to write the tell all book. Jenny is the one that Michelle claims is never happy about anything, and also the first duggar to announce that she doesn't want to ever get married. I wonder how long she had to sit in the prayer closet for that one.

[Phoenix]

The obsession with purity and avoiding lustful thoughts reminds me of a scene in one of Ken Follett's books about a character carefully studying the carved carnal acrobatics of assorted demons in hell as part of the decor inside a Medieval cathedral. The inhabitants of hell got more attention because they were shown doing exactly what was forbidden sexually.

I also wonder about difficulty "switching gears" so fast. One day you can hold hands with your betrothed and the next you are supposed to be in full baby making mode! Since so much of sex is mental at least for women there has to be some radical adjustments in a phenomenally short period of time even with hormones leading the way.

It doesn't say much for their belief system or the quality of the training of their children that there remains zero trust that young men and women are assumed to be incapable of showing some self-control in keeping their hands off each other.

Don't want to have sex before marriage? Fine, don't. But going from zero to 60 doesn't seem remotely healthy to me.

If a rushed marriage to a near stranger astonishingly doesn't turn out to be a happy one, where does that leave the miserable couple's faith in God? After all, they played by the rules, married the one God intended for them, but didn't work out to happily ever after. God can't screw up so it must be their fault. Talk about therapy inducing wretchedness! :pull-hair:

Edited once for typos.

[Ivycoveredtower]

The obsession with purity and avoiding lustful thoughts reminds me of a scene in one of Ken Follett's books about a character carefully studying the carved carnal acrobatics of assorted demons in hell as part of the decor inside a Medieval cathedral. The inhabitants of hell got more attention because they were shown doing exactly what was forbidden sexually.

I also wonder about difficulty "switching gears" so fast. One day you can hold hands with your betrothed and the next you are supposed to be in full baby making mode! Since so much of sex is mental at least for women there has to be some radical adjustments in a phenomenally short period of time even with hormones leading the way.

It doesn't say much for their belief system or the quality of the training of their children that there remains zero trust that young men and women are assumed to be incapable of showing some self-control in keeping their hands off each other.

Don't want to have sex before marriage? Fine, don't. But going from zero to 60 doesn't seem remotely healthy to me.

If a rushed marriage to a near stranger astonishingly doesn't turn out to be a happy one, where does that leave the miserable couple's faith in God? After all, they played by the rules, married the one God intended for them, but didn't work out to happily ever after. God can't screw up so it must be their fault. Talk about therapy inducing wretchedness! :pull-hair:

Edited once for typos.

Reading this just made me think of the Engagement episode. there is Derick and Jill driving back to the TTH and he turns to her and asks if he can hold her hand. just sad. she said yes to marriage but he almost looked afraid she would say no to him taking her hand. :(

[RosyDaisy]

I would find it very difficult going from zero physical contact to sex overnight. There has to be a slow progression for me.

[Coco]

Maybe they're doing the ridiculously strict rules as a protection for the girls more than anything else. I can see Derick being considerate of Jill's wanting to wait but not Ben, even if his intentions were good. But if there's never the chance, they might be able to wait til the honeymoon. :lol:

[Ivycoveredtower]

Maybe they're doing the ridiculously strict rules as a protection for the girls more than anything else. I can see Derick being considerate of Jill's wanting to wait but not Ben, even if his intentions were good. But if there's never the chance, they might be able to wait til the honeymoon. :lol:

that is actually a scary thought. If that is their reasoning then that's even more messed up. If a guy is only willing to take a girls feelings into consideration because her parents are watching her like a hawk it's not someone that girl should be marrying. :cry:

[RosyDaisy]

I disagree. It is possible for a non-virgin to fall in love with and wait and and honor heir partners desire to wat until the weddin night. I get this vibe from Derick. He genuinely loves Jill and wa willing to wait. I get a different vibe from Ben and Jessa Those two are probably plotting ways for Jessa to sneak into the guesthouse for some sweet fellowshipping.

[eh02]

I've seen so many clips where they are like " oh, side hug! ...haha" like it's something they just made up to do for the cameras to make them more speshul. If it was part of their everyday thing they would be comfortable and secure in it. But no, even they know it's ridiculous.

Unfortunately, the Duggars aren't the first time I've heard of the side hug obsession. My mom was VERY into Focus on the Family. I am in my mid 20s now and remember being subscribed to the Focus on the Family magazine for teens or preteens (Brio I think?) and there was an "Ask Miss Susie" section. A girl wrote in asking about how she wasn't sure if she should hug male friends because she thought they'd feel her breasts and Susie suggested side hugs. :? I thought it was nuts even at 10.

Once in Brio they also suggested you have a sleepover with your friends and write letters to your "future husbands" telling them how excited you were to save yourself for them. It is bad when a 10 year old who is "fully drinking the Koolaid" even thinks something's not right there. And the guilt trip of "purity rings" is infuriating, especially since it's frequently given by the father, as if he's the keeper of your sexuality. :ew: :angry-banghead: Nobody should have to define their sexuality on someone else's terms and timeline.

A lot of my super fundie friends were homeschooled and I remember BEGGING my mom to homeschool me in maybe 2nd grade. Dodged that bullet. Not many homeschool kids in my PhD program now :D

I remember having sex for the first time at 18 and just feeling like hm. well, that's done and I feel exactly the same. all that hype for nothing.

[N The Prayer Closet]

Unfortunately, the Duggars aren't the first time I've heard of the side hug obsession. My mom was VERY into Focus on the Family. I am in my mid 20s now and remember being subscribed to the Focus on the Family magazine for teens or preteens (Brio I think?) and there was an "Ask Miss Susie" section. A girl wrote in asking about how she wasn't sure if she should hug male friends because she thought they'd feel her breasts and Susie suggested side hugs. :? I thought it was nuts even at 10.

Once in Brio they also suggested you have a sleepover with your friends and write letters to your "future husbands" telling them how excited you were to save yourself for them. It is bad when a 10 year old who is "fully drinking the Koolaid" even thinks something's not right there. And the guilt trip of "purity rings" is infuriating, especially since it's frequently given by the father, as if he's the keeper of your sexuality. :ew: :angry-banghead: Nobody should have to define their sexuality on someone else's terms and timeline.

A lot of my super fundie friends were homeschooled and I remember BEGGING my mom to homeschool me in maybe 2nd grade. Dodged that bullet. Not many homeschool kids in my PhD program now :D

I remember having sex for the first time at 18 and just feeling like hm. well, that's done and I feel exactly the same. all that hype for nothing.

I get so irked by their "side hug inconsistency" as I call it. It's okay for Jill and Jessa to front hug the woman who baked the wedding cake samples but not their own parents?! When Josh and Anna headed back to DC they were barely patting each other on the shoulders and acted like complete strangers. It reminded me of big, sad events in my family like funerals. I would kind of awkwardly hug the aunt from out of state that I see every two years but front hug my older male cousins that I saw several times a year. I just don't get why they do the side hugs with immediate family and "dear" friends. The Bates family is very affectionate and loving and they have imprisoned raised their children in much the same way as the Duggars.

[Phoenix]

I didn't realize until FJ how fundie and messed up Focus on the Family was. My Mom was also a huge James Dobson fan and listened to the radio daily. I clearly recall the tag line from the Focus on the Family segments. Fortunately she never considered home schooling probably in part because more than one of her children had ADD/ADHD and needed the resources found in evil public schools to thrive.

This realization scares me because she was pre-med prior to her marriage and children. Years ago I found her college transcripts and she was nearly a 4.0 for four years, pre-med. Very smart, well educated and totally fell for Focus on the Family bullshit.

I wonder if they were the ones who taught her how to discount and marginalize any dissenting thoughts I had as a young teen by endlessly telling me my viewpoint and objections were only "your perspective" and thus utterly without value or worthy of any consideration whatsoever if I dared bring up some messed up relationship dynamics. Of course her perspective was gold, it was only mine that didn't count. Even at 12 I could tell that was pretty f*@cked up. :cray-cray: :angry-banghead:

In the many years since I have gotten better results with teenagers by being upfront and honest about why the answer to some questions was no. They may not have liked the answers, but they had a lot more respect for my responses and were more likely to accept them even when they thought I was out to lunch.

I first had sex later than 18 and still had the "Really, that is what all the hype was about?" reaction. Thank heavens I was NOT married to the guy and stuck for life. That would have been a complete disaster.

I have never had the nerve to ask, but I have often wondered if my friends whose only partner ever was their husbands were curious about other men. I am guessing it probably depends on how satisfying their married sex life turned out to be. (I am leaving my LGBT friends out of this comment because most were smart enough to experiment before settling down.)

[not.diligent.enough]

Unfortunately, the Duggars aren't the first time I've heard of the side hug obsession. My mom was VERY into Focus on the Family. I am in my mid 20s now and remember being subscribed to the Focus on the Family magazine for teens or preteens (Brio I think?) and there was an "Ask Miss Susie" section. A girl wrote in asking about how she wasn't sure if she should hug male friends because she thought they'd feel her breasts and Susie suggested side hugs. :? I thought it was nuts even at 10.

Once in Brio they also suggested you have a sleepover with your friends and write letters to your "future husbands" telling them how excited you were to save yourself for them. It is bad when a 10 year old who is "fully drinking the Koolaid" even thinks something's not right there. And the guilt trip of "purity rings" is infuriating, especially since it's frequently given by the father, as if he's the keeper of your sexuality. :ew: :angry-banghead: Nobody should have to define their sexuality on someone else's terms and timeline.

A lot of my super fundie friends were homeschooled and I remember BEGGING my mom to homeschool me in maybe 2nd grade. Dodged that bullet. Not many homeschool kids in my PhD program now :D

I remember having sex for the first time at 18 and just feeling like hm. well, that's done and I feel exactly the same. all that hype for nothing.

Oh Brio.. :disgust: I got that magazine too. Did you get the impression that Miss Susie was a lesbian? I did. FWIW, not all homeschooled kids are stupid. I was homeschooled for a while and when I went to public school I was bored out of my mind. I graduated early (from being homeschooled) and got a full academic scholarship. My parents both had masters degrees, which is probably why their ATI fundie wanna-be statuses were short lived.

[eh02]

Yes! - I always thought Susie was a lesbian. I am glad someone else said it. I know I have no right to make assumptions about people's sexuality...but it is hard, just in general, not to think that people who have such over the top views about sex and abstinence aren't on some level just uncomfortable with their own sexuality, whatever their own preferences might be. IMO people who are comfortable with themselves don't feel the need to pick apart other people's lives and personal choices.

I think it's funny so many people who grew up in FotF households are fascinated with the Duggars like me :D Sometimes when I think back to the years when that lifestyle seemed normal, it's like it was in another lifetime. My mom is very well educated, very smart and independent, loved being a mom but always had her own interests. When I was young she was diagnosed with cancer and I think her ultra-religious phase correlated with that difficult time and the stress that came along with raising two small kids while undergoing chemo (for 8 years!) and facing death, trying to teach us to cope with the idea of death etc. She's still very religious, but far less extreme. She also always gave me a lot of feminist and empowering lessons and experiences...telling me to always be able to support myself financially, encouraging me to pursue math and science (and art and dance and everything else I wanted!) and basically telling me not to get married or have kids until I am in my 30s and have a fulfilling career.

I do remember going to the FotF HQ in Colorado Springs in probably 1999? Fun vacation...

And yeah, "Christian Radio" (usually James Dobson) was the only thing we listened to on car rides. The only. thing. And it played in the house. And everywhere we went. Hated it so much.

Also: I didn't mean to imply that homeschool kids can't receive a good education or that they aren't smart, by the way! I think the only issues with it arise because of the type of people who frequently choose to homeschool rather than the concept of homeschooling itself. With the fundie crowd it is very obvious that most of the parents are teaching their kids at home out of fear of them interacting too much with people who are different rather than for the quality of their education. My personal experience with public school was great, but I know not everyone is the same.

[eh02]

Holy moly. I just spent time googling Susie. I have to say...I'm used to some level of forced smiling and enthusiasm after watching J'chelle but...

That woman's not right in the head. I'd never seen her speak before (only read her features in magazines). :pink-shock:

[delightfullyduggar]

I've been really interested in what the Duggars believe. I am a Christian and a lot of their behaviors are off-putting and nonsensical to me.

I wanted to learn more about Bill Gothard. I went to recovering grace (.org) and there are some fascinating articles on there that explains about the Duggar's.

Regarding the topic of this thread, I wanted to share what I found on one of the pages about their Sexual beliefs.

"With that as the foundation he is then free to teach couples the “biblical principle†of Marital Abstinence whereby a married couple can demonstrate they really love one another by not engaging in sexual relations

1. During the wife’s menstrual cycle;

2. Seven days after the cycle;

3. Forty days after the birth of a son;

4. Eighty days after the birth of a daughter; 31 and

5. The evening prior to worship.32"

Literally Bill Gothard has dictated off of old testament laws when they can have sex! Creepy and disturbing but I thought it would be a "fun" bit of info for the thread.