The Rise of Biblical Counseling - Kathryn Joyce

[Jasmar]

So true. Nouthetic counseling is spiritual abuse in many cases, IMO. And in all cases involving abuse of any kind.

[Coco]

A couple of examples of horrible fundie counseling:

One of our fundie churches went through a time of preaching that every sin, to be forgiven by God, had to be confessed before God and man. So they had us youth scared of hell and confessing every wrong thought we'd ever had. To the preacher. Who we had to keep interacting with of course.

Another time during week-long INTENSE Bible School, away from family, i went for prayer and counseling after one of the sermons convicted me of something i was struggling with, and i assumed this was a private brief conversation with two of the mentors. After we were done praying, we started to leave and i found out there were several other people who were in the room including one of my friends who told me she was there because she "went through something similar". So apparently they kept a record of all of our struggles and told other people about it to "help" us get through things. Humiliating.

[chaotic life]

I first sought Christian counseling for our marital situation, believing marriage was one place that faith-based was appropriate.

Christian counseling for infidelity generally starts with huge servings of guilt--that his affair is your fault and that despite the biblical allowance for divorce in the case if infidelity that it is not *really* an acceptable response. After tearing down the faithful spouse with these two messages browbeaten into them, only then does Christian counseling then move to working on the marriage, by demanding the faithful spouse give up everything, including self care, to devote all of their time and energy to the cheater, to show them godly love, so they will not feel so unloved that they cheat again.

In college, I attempted Christian counseling for rape trauma that was much the same format. I made it one session before I sought out the rape counseling center.

[jerkit]

Is there a difference between this type of therapy and someone who has appropriate credentials (degree in psychology or social work etc) who is a Christian and integrates faith and therapy? How on earth is someone supposed to differentiate between the two?

[chaotic life]

Christian counseling is different from someone who is a trained counselor who happens to be Christian. They often have no degrees or training, or only have bible degrees of some variety. They hold no licensures and no professional credentials.

American Association of Christian Counselors, one of the big membership groups and referenced by Joyce, states:

AACC is committed to assisting Christian counselors, the entire “community of care,†licensed professionals, pastors, and lay church members with little or no formal training. It is our intention to equip clinical, pastoral, and lay care-givers with biblical truth and psychosocial insights that minister to hurting persons and helps them move to personal wholeness, interpersonal competence, mental stability, and spiritual maturity.

Pastoral counselors would receive perhaps one or two classes in their graduate studies IF they have a M.Div versus something like a Masters in Theology. They hold no professional counseling training or credentials unless they have obtained additional degrees other than their seminary degrees. I have seen some who hold both and some who do not. Those who hold dual degrees would also have licensure as counselors and therapists, whether their dual degrees are professional therapy or clinical social workers.

Professionals will hold at least a masters degree in either social work or counseling, and will hold licensure as well. They also sometimes are PsyDs which is a doctorate in Psychology. These are the genuine professionals. However, there is still a difference between a professional who happens to be a Christian versus one who utilizes Christian Counseling techniques. A professional therapist who happens to be Christian may play contemporary Christian music in their waiting area. One who is utilizing Christian Counseling techniques is going to use prayer and the Bible within their therapy sessions, and a heavy dose of theology versus therapy.

Layman counselors are going to have at most some form of training through their church, usually how to run small groups and how to mediate it about all it covers. However, in some areas these counselors hang out singles and charge money and present themselves as the same thing as those with professional credentials.

[Walking Cat Bed]

The summer before I finished my BA, one of the camp attendees on campus suggested I look into nouthetic counseling training instead of grad school. I'm really, really glad that I was already in serious questioning mode -- I spent five minutes on the website she suggested and noped the fuck out of there. She was still pissed when my answer to her follow-up suggestion was "I'm praying about it" instead of "yes, get me connected!" (that particular branch was set up like an MLM -- if I trained "under" her, she'd get a percentage based on my "counseling" paychecks. THAT was part of the big NO for me.)

I wish I remembered the specifics of what she'd suggested. That would be a good mess to expose.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

I was sent to a Christian Counseling center once I started really questioning my families beliefs and "rebelling against the spirit". The one I went to would just pray with you and study bible passages with you that always pointed you back to repentance. They asked me a million questions to try to come up with some unforgivable sin I had committed.

This counseling center also had group homes for wayward teens and they actually suggested my parents send me to one. The homes were more for kids who had drug addiction or were kicked out of school and a HUGE $$ maker for the "ministry". My mom flat out told them that she couldn't let me go off because she needed me at home to help with the younger kids.

One of the Ministers from this program actually called my school and tried to see if they had any dirt on me that might make my parents fear for my soul and send me off. My school counselor and principal were horiffied, I had straight A's and had never even had detention. My school counselor gave me her cell phone number and the number for the local Child Welfare office and told me that she would help me gain emancipation from my parents if they tried to send me away.

I decided to just keep my head down and made it through the next 14 months until I graduated from high school.

[nokidsmom]

Years ago, I was going through a really rough patch and finally, at the end of my rope, contacted the EAP (Employee Assistance Program) counselor at my work facility. I had an initial session with him to assess things and he informed me he was referring me to a therapist. I was asked if I wanted either a religious or secular therapist. I was rather surprised to hear this but I was a right enough frame of mind to opt for a secular therapist. While I have no idea of what the qualifications for the relgious therapist was, it may have been a fully qualified therapist with a religious emphasis for all I knew and not someone with questionable credentials, I simply didn't want to chance it. Things were bad enough without throwing guilt and sin into the mix.

ETA: Therapist I saw had a PhD in psychology. Chances are the religious therapists were just as qualified but just didn't want to go there.

[Firiel]

I went to a fully-trained professional counselor who happened to be a Christian. She was a dirty bitch who took my cheating ex's "side" from the beginning and (likely) helped start the rumor that I had several mental illnesses I don't actually have.

I don't think this had anything to do with her faith or her completed credentials. And I've had good therapists since. I just get pissed whenever I think of her because she's a stupid fuck who was dumb enough to get taken in by my ex. As someone who should be trained to see things impartially and not get taken in by a smooth-talking asshole, I've decided she is absolutely shit at her job.

/offtopicrant

[GenerationCedarchip]

I deal with counselors sometimes at my job and both the secular and Christian ones really run the gamut. I've encountered Christian counseling in the form of folks who have an actual Ph.D in clinical psychology and who are also Christian, will pray with patients, etc.. and I've been very favorably impressed with the work that some of them do. I think a good counselor can be very helpful and I appreciate the good ones I encounter, but because I've seen so many questionable things professionally from both the Christian and secular therapists, I tend to view many with some amount of suspicion until I get a better idea of what kind of work they do.

Unfortunately, I've seen some folks who pull a lot of the same antics that others have mentioned in this thread (telling spouses they are to blame for being cheated on, denying the existence of PTSD and telling a patient he just "has a guilty conscience", etc..). It was actually the doings of a Christian counselor(among other things) that contributed to me starting to question some of the more legalistic aspects of my former church. I had a friend who was molested by a relative, and when she went to this counselor for help, he concentrated more on her need to repent and be more submissive to her parents' wishes than on the depression and anxiety that plagued her. When she started talking about suicide, he told her that he couldn't help her anymore but cautioned her against going to ebil worldly therapists, too.

I think there are some sketchy fundie counselors out there, but I don't think Christian counselors are the only ones selling questionable therapy. They certainly have their share, but so do other groups in the counseling field.

[CrazyCatLady]

I'm a Christian who just happens to have a doctorate in clinical psychology. I do not discuss Christianity at all unless specifically asked by a client. I wouldn't feel comfortable praying with a client, but I sure have prayed FOR many of them!

[Jasmar]

I've worked with a wide variety of mental health professionals over the years, some Christian and some not. Some were awesome and some terrible, and were about equally divided between good-bad and secular-Christian. My best work has been done with Christian counselors who didn't engage in victim-blaming.

My current gal, the one I've been seeing as I've decided to end my marriage, has probably been the best. She's actually a pastor's wife, but is fully licensed as a therapist in my state, and is considered a bit of a radical in conservative circles. She fully understand abuse. That is hard to find. There are plenty who think they get it, but the worst marriage counseling I ever did was with a (Christian) young woman who had trained with Abuse Recovery Ministry, which is actually an excellent group, yet still treated my (emotionally and spiritually abusive) situation as though it just needed clearer communication. Ugh.

I can't think of anything I'd use nouthetic counseling for at this point, because of the over-emphasis on figuring out which of your sin/s are responsible for your issue. I consider this irresponsible for the most part. There are some cases where bad choices lead to depression-like feelings, but those are easy enough to figure out on your own, or with a trusted friend.

Edited for clarity.

[flojo]

Yeah, a friend of mine gave me this book as a bridal party gift when I was a bridesmaid in her wedding:

http://www.bcfministries.org/matls-01sc.html

I worked about halfway through it back when I was still lured by the fundie-promise. It is like falling down the rabbit hole - every mental health problem can be defined as a "life-dominating sin." So, for me, an anxiety disorder became fear, a sinful lack of faith. The cure? Looking up and memorizing tons of Bible verses related to fear. Reminding myself of my depravity. And confessing the life-dominating sin.

Ditto with depression, obsessive thinking, and other disorders.

The idea behind is that the potential counselor goes through the program herself and then is prepared to counsel others.

Having since gone through several years of sanity-saving therapy with an excellent qualified therapist, I can say with confidence that all this kind of nouthetic counseling does is further cement the codependence rampant in fundie circles. So disheartening to think this is the only option available for people struggling, and it does more harm than good - not to mention the bad theology. You often have to twist verse in hermeneutical knots to get something written to a church gathering in first century Philippi apply to the stay-at-home suburban wife struggling with anxiety.

I spent years as a teen and young adult getting prayer and feeling horribly guilty for my fear. I later, after leaving the church, found out I had GAD. It was incredibly freeing just to realise that it wasn't because I was bad and weak.

Interestingly enough, the church I attended for a lot of that takes mental health seriously, and I used one of their (qualified and excellent) therapists for something else entirely. It was more that the message of "do not fear" permiated so deeply that neither I, nor anyone else, recognised me as being anything more than someone "dealing with fear" or "high strung". Since diagnosis, a combination of awesome therapists and the occasional use of anti depressants have made the world of difference.

[Walking Cat Bed]

One of my friends during my undergrad was a bible-verse-instead-of-psychiatry person. When she spent several weeks dealing with serious anxiety, her response was to write out and chant that verse from Philippians over and over and over. Somehow, a mantra of "be anxious for nothing" didn't really help. (After she graduated and got her own insurance plan, she started actual counseling, which has been MUCH more helpful; her mother's response to any questions about counseling were always "you don't need that, you're just an intense person".)

[Trynn]

Particularly in your case Trynn, where I'm assuming that you were a minor? There are legal ramifications to consider in those circumstances when bound by a code of ethics and governing body (ie, when one is a registered professional - psychologist, social worker etc.)

It was between birthdays, so we had this discussion twice, once at 17, and again at 18.

[BabyFullOfSin]

It was between birthdays, so we had this discussion twice, once at 17, and again at 18.

Huh... Well that's really quite strange. Given that (excepting the mandatory disclosures around child abuse, suicide etc.), once a person reaches the age of majority, there really is no grey area about confidentiality, it sounds like either your psychologist was confused/uninformed, a bad communicator, or there was a misunderstanding.

I'm sorry you had that experience - I think (and hope!), that it's not a common one.

[neuroticcat]

My husband is clergy and he will always refer parishioners to professional counselors. He said the single counseling course he had in seminary in no way prepares him to counsel people.

I agree. Personally, I think it's ridiculous that many pastors are required to wear so many hats (or perhaps choose to for themselves) - be a good preacher, a good administrator, a counselor, and a godly example! No wonder it attracts so many narcissists.

[chaotic life]

Scripture *can* be used for both hypnosis and meditation, and can be incorporated into legitimate techniques, but shouldn't replace them.

I was working with Teen Missions as a nurse once and tried to help a kid with a broken leg manage the pain with relaxation and visual imaging, while trying to get him to real medical care. A staff member went apeshit that I was using new age psychology and how that was strictly against policy.

[browncoatslytherin]

i got some biblical counseling from my pastor when i was a teen. i had (well, have, still :P ) actual mental health problems. gods bless him, he was a kind man and i think him and his wife really tried to help as best they could, but they really weren't equipped to do so.

i ended up going to a real psychologist anyway, who was an asshat who told me that i should be "happy" that i miscarried when i did. i was horrified. i never stepped foot in his office again, and indeed it took me years to get professional help again.

*edited for riffle*

[chaotic life]

Even having credentials does not guarantee someone is competent and qualified for the type of therapy any individual needs. Even when a professional is qualified and a good therapist, there is still the personality factor.

Look for credentials first, far too many in Christian counseling don't have them. Then look if the professional is experienced for your specific needs. Finally, give it about 4-6 sessions to tell if personalities click. If they don't, find someone else. You aren't going to fix personalities that don't mesh, and you don't owe it to a therapist to stay when they don't.

[Emme]

Even having credentials does not guarantee someone is competent and qualified for the type of therapy any individual needs. Even when a professional is qualified and a good therapist, there is still the personality factor.

Look for credentials first, far too many in Christian counseling don't have them. Then look if the professional is experienced for your specific needs. Finally, give it about 4-6 sessions to tell if personalities click. If they don't, find someone else. You aren't going to fix personalities that don't mesh, and you don't owe it to a therapist to stay when they don't.

YES. If the therapist is not a good fit, that is OK! Find another one! There are many ways for licensed mental health professionals to integrate faith and religion into counseling in a competent manner if that's something that's important to the client.

[feministxtian]

The best therapist I ever saw was a nun who also had a PhD in clinical Psychology. She was fantastic and helped me SO much! From the time I started seeing her until I stopped (because I moved) she helped me in ways I never thought possible! If I need to find another therapist, I think I will look for the same type. She integrated faith and psychology and was just wonderful. I can't say enough good things about her!

[FundieFarmer]

I studied psychology at a small conservative Christian college for 2 years, before getting my head on straight and transferring. I first went there because of an athletic scholarship, and because the campus was nice, and I figured, why not? Well, why not was because for a psychology major, we covered Freud & Co. once in my freshman year, and that was only to say how ridiculous they were, before moving on. The day I realized how poor the education was in my particular field (that is to say, other fields- business, hard sciences, languages- that were much more black and white received significantly higher quality of teaching), I started making preparations to transfer. Unless these students moved on to a more secular graduate university, they will not be much help to those in need of psychiatric assistance.

During my sophomore year, I had a run-in with Nouthetic counseling, courtesy of my "Abnormal Behaviors" class. We were introduced to it because Nouthetic counselling was something that upper-level students were taught as the preferred method of psychiatric interview, and we received a thorough overview. After depression was described as being caused by a separation from God that could be addressed with enough hymn-singing and prayer, I was ready to get out. I'll see if I can rustle up some of my old notes from class and share those here; they were definitely something else and not at all encouraging or logically sound in themselves. More than one discussion was dedicated to which afflictions were based in sin, and which were "choices" (No. Just, no.). Everything was supposed to be fixable by submission to God, and prayer. I suppose it depends on how much a practitioner brings that into an appointment, but our professor made it seem as though this was the best (and almost only) method of practice. Thankfully I avoided brainwash solely because personal experience has taught me otherwise.

[CrazyCatLady]

I studied psychology at a small conservative Christian college for 2 years, before getting my head on straight and transferring. I first went there because of an athletic scholarship, and because the campus was nice, and I figured, why not? Well, why not was because for a psychology major, we covered Freud & Co. once in my freshman year, and that was only to say how ridiculous they were, before moving on. The day I realized how poor the education was in my particular field (that is to say, other fields- business, hard sciences, languages- that were much more black and white received significantly higher quality of teaching), I started making preparations to transfer. Unless these students moved on to a more secular graduate university, they will not be much help to those in need of psychiatric assistance.

During my sophomore year, I had a run-in with Nouthetic counseling, courtesy of my "Abnormal Behaviors" class. We were introduced to it because Nouthetic counselling was something that upper-level students were taught as the preferred method of psychiatric interview, and we received a thorough overview. After depression was described as being caused by a separation from God that could be addressed with enough hymn-singing and prayer, I was ready to get out. I'll see if I can rustle up some of my old notes from class and share those here; they were definitely something else and not at all encouraging or logically sound in themselves. More than one discussion was dedicated to which afflictions were based in sin, and which were "choices" (No. Just, no.). Everything was supposed to be fixable by submission to God, and prayer. I suppose it depends on how much a practitioner brings that into an appointment, but our professor made it seem as though this was the best (and almost only) method of practice. Thankfully I avoided brainwash solely because personal experience has taught me otherwise.

FF- I got my masters and doctorate in clinical psychology from a religious university and the training was top-notch and APA accredited. I just wanted to make it clear to other readers that not all religious schools have shitty psych. programs.

[trailmix2014]

This stuff is so disturbing. I was talking to my then-MIL one day and she was asking nosy questions about my counseling. She told me I needed to find a counselor that wouldn't be all "me me me, feelings feelings feelings" and find one that would take me through the bible. I was so pissed at her for that. She knew it too, but she didn't know why it made me so angry. :doh:

I still haven't found a good counselor. Ex and I went to one when he was trying to convince me not to get a divorce and he hated it. Turns out he didn't like that the counselor had said he was wrong. LOL. We went that one time and split up a week later.