A response from ATI about joining

[homeschoolmomma1]

I was going though old folders in my e-mail and found this from years ago. Thought some of you might enjoy. I really want an atheist to ask if they can join.

 

This is what I asked

 

Can we join ATI if our family is Catholic?

 

The response

 

Dear Homeschoolmomma1,

 

Thank you for your inquiry.

 

ATI and IBLP (the parent organization) are nondenominational and there have been many Roman Catholics (including priests and nuns) who have attended and expressed appreciation for the Basic Seminar over the years, however, if you are a practicing Roman Catholic you would find the ATI Wisdom Booklets to be in tension with many significant points of orthodox Roman Catholic doctrine, polity, and practice.

 

For instance, the ATI curriculum will...

 

-...not support an exalted position for the virgin Mary (we believe Mary was highly favored by the Lord and was obedient to perform one of the highest roles a human has ever been asked to do in being the earthly mother of the Christ, but she was also a sinner who needed to be saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ the same way any one else must be saved; we believe that she also gave birth to other children by Joseph)

 

-...not support an exalted place for the position of pope, i.e., above any other bishop (elder or pastor); we hold the Word of God--the Bible to be of higher authority than any official church creed or doctrine or papal decree

 

-...not support a celibate clergy (we believe some were single, but that Peter among others was married)

 

-...not support the liturgy or symbolism of the mass, but rather will promote participation by believers in the taking of communion as a remembrance of our Lord's broken body and shed blood (the elements being symbolic rather than actual body and blood)

 

-...not support the doctrine of purgatory or prayers for the dead

 

-...not support the baptism of infants

 

-...speak mostly favorably of the Reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin

 

The list could go on longer, but this may be sufficient for you to understand the challenges a Roman Catholic might find with joining ATI. If you were to apply, you would need to agree with ATI's Statement of Faith without serious reservation. If that were the case, then, when your application is received, I would review it and probably need to have further communications with you to see if I could be convinced that your participation would not create problems for you or for us.

 

We believe faith is a matter of conscience for each person and we would not want to try to convince anyone to change their beliefs unless they felt it was God Himself through His Word and the ministry of the Holy Spirit who was leading them to do so.

 

Thank you again for your interest and may God bless you with a knowledge of His will for you in this matter.

 

Dwight M. Fredrickson, PhD

 

IBLP/ATI Administrative Director

[Mama Mia]

That actually sounded much more reasonable and respectful than I would of expected.

[homeschoolmomma1]

That actually sounded much more reasonable and respectful than I would of expected.

I know right. I thought they would be like DEVIL get AWAY!

Although, first impressions...

I really want someone to write and say they are an atheist that wants to join

[Palimpsest]

I know right. I thought they would be like DEVIL get AWAY!

Although, first impressions...

I realy want someone to write and say they are an atheist that wants to join

Nah. You need to run it through the Fundie-speak translator.

Dear Homeschoolmomma1 Non-Christian

Thank you for your inquiry.

ATI and IBLP (the parent organization) are nondenominational and there have been many Roman Catholics (including priests and nuns) who have attended and expressed appreciation for run away screaming from the Basic Seminar over the years, however, if you are a practicing Roman Catholic you would find the ATI Wisdom Booklets to be in tension with many significant points of orthodox Roman Catholic doctrine, polity, and practice.

For instance, the ATI curriculum will...

Rage against most RC doctrines and call Catholics the Anti-Christ.

-...not support an exalted position for the virgin Mary (we believe Mary was highly favored by the Lord and was obedient to perform one of the highest roles a human has ever been asked to do in being the earthly mother of the Christ, but she was also a sinner who needed to be saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ the same way any one else must be saved; we believe that she also gave birth to other children by Joseph)

-...not support an exalted place for the position of pope, i.e., above any other bishop (elder or pastor); we hold the Word of God--the Bible to be of higher authority than any official church creed or doctrine or papal decree

-...not support a celibate clergy (we believe some were single, but that Peter among others was married)

-...not support the liturgy or symbolism of the mass, but rather will promote participation by believers in the taking of communion as a remembrance of our Lord's broken body and shed blood (the elements being symbolic rather than actual body and blood)

-...not support the doctrine of purgatory or prayers for the dead

-...not support the baptism of infants-...speak mostly favorably of the Reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin because even Luther and Calvin didn't get it as right as Bill Gothard.

The list could go on longer, but this may be sufficient for you to understand the challenges a Roman Catholic might find with joining ATI and we don't want you anyway. If you were to apply, you would need to agree with ATI's Statement of Faith without serious reservation. If you do, we won't believe you. If that were the case, then, when your application is received, I would review it and probably need to have further communications with you to see if I could be convinced that your participation would not create problems for you orfor us. And it will, so I'll just be looking for more reasons to turn you down or preferably to convert you.

We believe faith is a matter of conscience for each person and we would not want to try to convince anyone to change their beliefs unless they felt it wasbecause it is God Himself through His Word and the ministry of the Holy Spirit who was leading them to do so leads us to convert Heathens like you.

Thank you again for your interest and may God bless you with a knowledge of His will for you in this matter but piss off if you are not willing to drink the Kool-ade.

Dwight M. Fredrickson, PhD

IBLP/ATI Administrative Director

[Odd1Out]

"-...not support an exalted place for the position of pope, i.e., above any other bishop (elder or pastor); we hold the Word of God--the Bible to be of higher authority than any official church creed or doctrine or papal decree

-...not support a celibate clergy (we believe some were single, but that Peter among others was married)"

Gothard is the exception, right?

[Grimalkin]

You guys are funny. At least they did not insist Catholics are not Christians like sonny people do. They did seem to understand the difference between honoring Mary and worshipping her. So many people will argue that with me and insist they are right becuase some pastor said so.

[It'sFunToRun]

"We believe faith is a matter of conscience for each person and we would not want to try to convince anyone to change their beliefs unless they felt it was God Himself through His Word and the ministry of the Holy Spirit who was leading them to do so."

Then why have missionaries?

[Brightonbelle]

I'm an atheist and I would email them but I'm in the UK!

[tralala]

"-...not support an exalted place for the position of pope, i.e., above any other bishop (elder or pastor); we hold the Word of God--the Bible to be of higher authority than any official church creed or doctrine or papal decree

-...not support a celibate clergy (we believe some were single, but that Peter among others was married)"

Gothard is the exception, right?

Well he sure as hell wasn't celibate, so there goes that one :hand:

[Toothfairy]

Well he sure as hell wasn't celibate, so there goes that one :hand:

I think they meant gothard not bible.

[Palimpsest]

I'm an atheist and I would email them but I'm in the UK!

Oh, why not give it a shot. You will probably just get a shorter Atheist version of the above, but they have a few "missionaries" in the UK who would love to convert you. :mrgreen:

[BeaSnarky]

Dwight M. Fredrickson, PhD

hmmm....PhD - so, an advanced degree, or just didn't feel like writing out Piled Higher and Deeper?

[JellyHope]

"We believe faith is a matter of conscience for each person and we would not want to try to convince anyone to change their beliefs unless they felt it was God Himself through His Word and the ministry of the Holy Spirit who was leading them to do so."

Then why have missionaries?

And why is your way the only way? Why are y'all the only real Christians?

[GeoBQn]

I searched for Dwight M. Fredrickson and found this forum post from 7 years ago. Looks a bit familiar.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=197889

[SoybeanQueen]

We believe faith is a matter of conscience for each person and we would not want to try to convince anyone to change their beliefs unless they felt it was God Himself through His Word and the ministry of the Holy Spirit who was leading them to do so.

Interesting. That's not how most fundies would say it. Heh.

[Brightonbelle]

Oh, why not give it a shot. You will probably just get a shorter Atheist version of the above, but they have a few "missionaries" in the UK who would love to convert you. :mrgreen:

maybe I will!

[FloraDoraDolly]

maybe I will!

Go for it! You can tell them that you don't believe in or worship any god(s), but you are drawn to ATI for the character education, which is sorely lacking at your local schools. Or something along those lines.

[Mandysue]

Slighty off topic. Re:baptism

Have we ever seen evidence of a Duggar Baptism? Do they talk about THAT really?

Have we ever heard one of the kids say I accepted Christ at Big Sandy? For all their talk about god and Christ they really don't share their testimony like other's do. They pass out pamphlets and fake dollar bills but they don't talk about THEIR experiences.

I know that I hear people talk about getting baptized or going to church camp and accepting Christ. The Duggars do not do this. We all know that Jim Boob loves to brag about stuff. Why not this?

[Trynn]

Maybe it's something the kids wanted to keep private?

Also, wasn't Amy baptized in the Jordan river on their trip to Israel?

[lilith]

Maybe it's something the kids wanted to keep private?

Also, wasn't Amy baptized in the Jordan river on their trip to Israel?

Hahaha..... Like the Duggars are allowed to keep anything private if JimBob wants to sell it to TLC. It's far more likely that either their baptism experiences are too out there and fundie for a mainstream audience or JimBob can't trust the younger Duggars to stick to the approved theology if asked about them, so the topic is off the table.

JimBob, Michelle and the older girls have given their testimonies at church and ATI events, and Josh and Anna give theirs on speaking engagements too.

ETA: some of the Duggar kids were baptised and re baptised in the Jordan with Amy.

[jerkit]

But we haven't seen much of their church at all. So it probably happened there and we've just never seen it. I feel like they're very closed off about their church other than to say that it's a home church and they meet in one of the Duggar properties.

[nomoxian]

It's far more likely that either their baptism experiences are too out there and fundie for a mainstream audience or JimBob can't trust the younger Duggars to stick to the approved theology if asked about them, so the topic is off the table.

JimBob, Michelle and the older girls have given their testimonies at church and ATI events, and Josh and Anna give theirs on speaking engagements too.

That seems more likely than 'I don't have a personal testimony because I haven't been brainwashed into having one yet'

It's interesting that they haven't taught the younger ones some sound bytes though... In LDS/Mormon culture it's common for young kids to say stuff like "I know The Church is true" and "Joseph Smith was a prophet" and "I trust and follow the prophet" and "Choose The Right!" Some parents even whisper it to their kids to repeat on the podium (My father didn't as he was opposed to overtly coerced testimonies)

Maybe anything other than "I love Jesus" or "Jesus Others Yourself" is too extreme. I wonder if their style of preaching is on par with the Pissing Preacher. I'd love to be a wasp on the wall of one of their Sunday meetings! Sting them when they start being sexist or racist or homophobic or transphobic. Shouldn't take long! ;)

[BullyJBG]

"-...not support an exalted place for the position of pope, i.e., above any other bishop (elder or pastor); we hold the Word of God--the Bible to be of higher authority than any official church creed or doctrine or papal decree

-...not support a celibate clergy (we believe some were single, but that Peter among others was married)"

Gothard is the exception, right?

My thoughts exactly! Or was that written back in the day before Gothard became so popular, and when he thought he might get married someday? Hard to say; analyzing Gothard too deep can make my head spin.

[luv2laugh]

Interesting I saw this exact post in 2007 and on the website, people were persuading the poster not to join ATI

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.p ... 889&page=2