Abigails Pregnancy Progress

[fun2beme]

I had that discussion with a priest and a bishop. Their first comment was do NOT pass out. I was appalled when a woman in the congregation with diabetes, high blood pressure, and some other problems proudly told me about how she fasted faithfully.

I may have missed it, but does this reference the Catholic church? Because we celebrate 40 days of Lent. Sundays are not included because they are a commemoration of Easter and thus a celebratory day.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I may have missed it, but does this reference the Catholic church? Because we celebrate 40 days of Lent. Sundays are not included because they are a commemoration of Easter and thus a celebratory day.

AreteJo is Greek Orthodox.

[treemom]

There are some MFMs who still deliver babies. It's my understand that they are rare. My MFM had just stopped delivering babies about two years before I first saw her. The hospital threw a fit that she not only delivered a set of twins vaginally but manually rotated the second twin internally to avoid a c-section. Like most MFMs she was low intervention and decided it was easier to stop delivering that agree to the hospital's high intervention CYA policies anymore.

But would they tie tubes enough to discuss it with their mother??

[chaotic life]

I'm certain in Abigail's world that happens all the time.

[Jana814]

I'm certain in Abigail's world that happens all the time.

I'm sure u r right!

[fun2beme]

AreteJo is Greek Orthodox.

Thanks. My dad is Byzantine/Greek Catholic and their Lent is stricter than the Roman Catholic one as well. His starts the Monday before Ash Wednesday and it's a "black fast" day - no meet, diary, or eating between meals. The same for Good Friday too. When he was growing up, they didn't eat meat at all during Lent.

My dad used to strictly adhere to the no dairy rule. Dry toast and nothing that had dairy in it at all, like mashed potatoes or pasta (eggs). Now that my dad is 78, his definition of dairy has changed. Skim milk is OK because no cream, but eating a piece of cheese is wrong. He still won't butter his toast but he'll have something sautéed in butter. Ice cream not OK but pudding is. Please don't ask me where his logic comes from. :wink-penguin:

[bea]

But would they tie tubes enough to discuss it with their mother??

They might have that discussion if it came up in the course of treatment - "wow this is a crazy complex pregnancy, you have a load of kids at home, you've had previous miscarriages (also you're batshit crazy), and you're not 25, it might be time to think about making this the last pregnancy." Depending on if the MFM would do the c-section - which they might be called upon to.do, in a tricky case - the tube tying issue might be theirs to deal with. Or it might have come, or purposefully been brought up.

But in Abigail' s world, the MFM doctor wants to sneak into the operating room and tie her tubes, because everyone hates babies but her and also religious discrimination, enforced sterilization of a Good Catholic Mother, and Evil Life-Hating Doctors.

[Hane]

It would cheer me up if she met with both her priest and her doctor, and the doctor explained to the priest how dangerous another pregnancy would be for her. She would then pipe up with how OMG SINFUL contraception is. And then the priest would say, "Hey--that's right. You're a super special devout Catholic, so I guess that means no more sex for you! Or masturbation. And, while you're at it, tell your hubby that divorce is out, too."

[Arete]

Thanks. My dad is Byzantine/Greek Catholic and their Lent is stricter than the Roman Catholic one as well. His starts the Monday before Ash Wednesday and it's a "black fast" day - no meet, diary, or eating between meals. The same for Good Friday too. When he was growing up, they didn't eat meat at all during Lent.

My dad used to strictly adhere to the no dairy rule. Dry toast and nothing that had dairy in it at all, like mashed potatoes or pasta (eggs). Now that my dad is 78, his definition of dairy has changed. Skim milk is OK because no cream, but eating a piece of cheese is wrong. He still won't butter his toast but he'll have something sautéed in butter. Ice cream not OK but pudding is. Please don't ask me where his logic comes from. :wink-penguin:

Aw, I can take a crack at your dad's logic, cause so many of our older folks do the same thing.:D. They get older, things with the body get less cooperative with the body, something scares them during a fast and they go to the doctor. Doctor says "That's enough! You need to choose either some meat or diary and eat it a few times a week, your body/ meds/ condition can no longer sustain a strict vegan fast that many days," Dad goes to priest, priest points finger in his face and snarls "-Do as the doctor says, I'm sick you guys passing out during Holy Week Services when you know that it is forbidden for you to strictly fast!" Dad goes home feeling dejected he can't go strict, but decides to go as strict as he can. Skim milk so he won't enjoy it. Cheese is too decadent, that is out. Butter would make his toast more enjoyable, same reason. He sautées in butter because another forbidden fat during a Orthodox fasting that some are not aware of is olive oil. Yep. No olive oil in strict a Orthodox lent. Since he has medical permission for dairy, he isn't opposed to a little butter with his veggies. ;). A lot of older people classify rice pudding and regular pudding as a healthy snack in the Greek world as opposed to a dessert, and I would not be surprised if a lot of folks in the Byzantine Catholic world held the same way. And that is how a lot of old folks who do not care for the whole passing out for the fast idea get around their shame at their body's betrayal. :lol:

[fun2beme]

Thanks, AreteJo! Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Not sure how applicable the guilt thing is to my dad, though... his church as a tradition on Good Friday where the men (no women allowed) stay overnight in the church. It's so sacred that they're supposed to walk up the aisle on their knees. When my dad turned 70, he said - and I quote - "I'm too old for that shit." This from the same man who walks for miles several times a week. :roll:

[chaotic life]

I think if someone makes it to 70, they may define their fast anyway they want. I think most priests, Catholic *and* Orthodox, would agree. And yes, if he feels he's too old to walk on his knees at 70, more power to him. No one wants to have to call the ambulance if he walks on his knees and busts his knee so badly he has to leave the church for surgery either.

To most religious individuals, even Catholics, you are not required to allow yourself to die from refusal to obey medical advice for the sake of your religion.

I'm not Catholic but I know that a bleeding disorder such as von Willebrand's Disease is an absolute pass to use birth control, since that is what controls the bleeding best and avoids life threatening complications in women with bleeding disorders. My MIL did foster-care through Catholic Social Services and they forbad the teen foster girls to receive birth control....unless the girls had a medical condition that required birth control to manage. I taught MIL how to help the doctor that treated her foster daughters over the years to prescribe for PMDD or menoraghia so that CSS would allow it. They weren't about to stand in the way of a medical condition that required treatment.

Abigail could easily, EASILY get permission from her priest to stop having children based upon her medical situation. She doesn't want it. She wants to be a martyr for her faith, and she can't do that if she actually speaks to her priest who considers her specific circumstances instead of broad position papers that are general rules but don't account for individual cases.

[treemom]

They might have that discussion if it came up in the course of treatment - "wow this is a crazy complex pregnancy, you have a load of kids at home, you've had previous miscarriages (also you're batshit crazy), and you're not 25, it might be time to think about making this the last pregnancy." Depending on if the MFM would do the c-section - which they might be called upon to.do, in a tricky case - the tube tying issue might be theirs to deal with. Or it might have come, or purposefully been brought up.

But in Abigail' s world, the MFM doctor wants to sneak into the operating room and tie her tubes, because everyone hates babies but her and also religious discrimination, enforced sterilization of a Good Catholic Mother, and Evil Life-Hating Doctors.

No, why would the MFM being discussing it with his mother as if it is a common part of his job?

[treemom]

Basically I am calling bullshit that her MFM said his the business about the mother. Just another way for Abigail to feel superior

[AmazonSugarPie]

I don't for a second believe that any OB would threaten her with an "accidental" tubal ligation. That's beyond malpractice and getting into criminal territory right there.

A pro-life conundrum: Why is it that Abigail's life is worth so much less than the potential lives of all her not-yet-conceived babies?

I had a similar situation, in that I'd had repeated losses and multiple c-sections (three in three years, to be precise), and I was told in no uncertain circumstances by my ob (who was the head of a reputable medical school's OB department) that I should not risk another pregnancy, that I'd be risking both my life and the life of my baby. There was absolutely no question that I'd follow his recommendations. I had three living children who needed me, and their well-being was more important to me than any potential baby's.

ETA: I'm surprised her ob didn't mention placenta accreta. That was my ob's primary concern.

I wouldn't believe it either if I didn't know a woman who was sterilized against her explicit instructions. Very similar situation: Catholic woman, high risk pregnancy, needed a C-section. The OB was doing a hard sell to get her to consent to a tubal. She refused because of her beliefs. While she was sedated, the OB tricked her husband into signing the consent. It was illegal and she sued and got a big settlement.

[Arete]

We have a friend whose wife decided she wanted to be more Catholic than the Pope and kept getting pregnant. This was not a part if their original game plan. When she would not consent to using some type of bc, friend went and had a vasectomy. She was furious, but hey, his body, his choice. They eventually decided to go to secular counseling, as he would not go near religious. It saved both their relationship and their family life. Trouble with Abigail is her husband is as big a fanatic as she is. He doesn't sit down and ask, "My God, how are we going to feed and educate all these kids on one salary, and what is this doing to my wife's health? This has to stop."

[dianapavelovna]

This is my second time running into bad advice from a Catholic doctor. My first OB, who actually did a fantastic job during my pregnancy, encouraged me to use birth control at my 6 week post-natal check up even though it was against my Faith. She used the almost same line "Well, there are Catholics and then there are Catholics. You've got to decide, what kind of Catholic are you?"

Your doctor did not give you bad advice. He gave you sound medical advice. It is not his job to give you Catholic advice. He appears to have offered that because the two of you had the religion in common. Ditto to the woman who didn't want you to conceive again just weeks after giving birth.

[Mama Mia]

Your doctor did not give you bad advice. He gave you sound medical advice. It is not his job to give you Catholic advice. He appears to have offered that because the two of you had the religion in common. Ditto to the woman who didn't want you to conceive again just weeks after giving birth.

Really? That seems like a HUGE over-step to me.

Sure, she could of said something along the lines of " It would be safer if you did not immediately become pregnant again and gave your body some time to recuperate, particularly as you had a cesearean and the chances of uterine rupture are higher if the incision hasn't had time to heal ( or whatever the specific issues are). Possibly birth control options are x, y and z. These pamphlets describe each and their pros and cons. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have and prescribe birth control for you today if you would like."

But to make a patronizing religious comment? Fuck no.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I can't believe this broad graduated from Smith and law school. She is as dumb as pig shit and a horrible writer.

[dianapavelovna]

Really? That seems like a HUGE over-step to me.

Sure, she could of said something along the lines of " It would be safer if you did not immediately become pregnant again and gave your body some time to recuperate, particularly as you had a cesearean and the chances of uterine rupture are higher if the incision hasn't had time to heal ( or whatever the specific issues are). Possibly birth control options are x, y and z. These pamphlets describe each and their pros and cons. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have and prescribe birth control for you today if you would like."

But to make a patronizing religious comment? Fuck no.

You're right - the patronizing comment is gross and out of line. I just really hate the way she worded it - "bad advice from a Catholic doctor." Just because she disagrees with the suggestions on religious grounds doesn't make it bad advice.

[treemom]

Agreed, not bad advice. It was sound advice based on science but the delivery was problematic.

[fun2beme]

I think if someone makes it to 70, they may define their fast anyway they want. I think most priests, Catholic *and* Orthodox, would agree. And yes, if he feels he's too old to walk on his knees at 70, more power to him. No one wants to have to call the ambulance if he walks on his knees and busts his knee so badly he has to leave the church for surgery either.

To most religious individuals, even Catholics, you are not required to allow yourself to die from refusal to obey medical advice for the sake of your religion.

I'm not Catholic but I know that a bleeding disorder such as von Willebrand's Disease is an absolute pass to use birth control, since that is what controls the bleeding best and avoids life threatening complications in women with bleeding disorders. My MIL did foster-care through Catholic Social Services and they forbad the teen foster girls to receive birth control....unless the girls had a medical condition that required birth control to manage. I taught MIL how to help the doctor that treated her foster daughters over the years to prescribe for PMDD or menoraghia so that CSS would allow it. They weren't about to stand in the way of a medical condition that required treatment.

Abigail could easily, EASILY get permission from her priest to stop having children based upon her medical situation. She doesn't want it. She wants to be a martyr for her faith, and she can't do that if she actually speaks to her priest who considers her specific circumstances instead of broad position papers that are general rules but don't account for individual cases.

I agree - I don't know the exact reference but the Catholic church does have instances where birth control is allowed. But why do that when you can be a martyr to the faith and leave your children motherless?

LOL - my dad didn't ease on up Lent because of his health. He's just... interesting... The funniest part about the no walking on his knees was how he phrased it - "too old for that shit." I completely agree that people with health issues (such as my diabetic mom) should not even consider fasting. The church explicitly states that. To be honest, I can't do it myself either because my blood sugar drops and I get faint. Pretty sure God doesn't want me passing out alone at home.

My mom used to work in the rectory of our Catholic church. I can't remember the name of the Mel Gibson movie but it came out on Ash Wednesday (a day of fasting). One priest told her it was so graphic, he couldn't finish his popcorn. And the other priest was once seen in a diner, enjoying a big hamburger on a Friday during Lent. And another priest got reported to the diocese for giving the middle finger to someone who cut him off and almost hit him - he was wearing his white collar at the time. Priests are just people too.

[Arete]

You get to my church before services start on Sunday, you'll find our older priest in the parking lot having the last smoke he is going to be able to enjoy for another 4 hours. He once busted up a fight some of our men were having in the church kitchen by stomping in and yelling "I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS WANKERY!" Then for 6 months he would not allow all male teams to work in the kitchen, there had to be at least one woman with them to keep the testosterone from spiking.

Holy Friday night vigil is actually women's work in our church. They stay the night and recite the Psalms and Lamentations. No knee walking though, the ladies are a bit more on the practical side.

Yeah, Abigail would run screaming at the depth of some of our obedience and holiness. :lol:

[countressrascal]

I call her posting total of BS, she wrote what she wanted to hear so that she could be the martyr again.

Here is the truth I deal with every day, mainly with hard core Mormons-

You miscarried less than six months ago and it was your X is that correct?

You have had 5 C-sections, with the last one being complex?

You are 40 years old and looking at your 6th C-section?

Now here is the medical facts- You could have a Uterus rupture, 80% chance, if it does not happen at this time it will the next time. So here are your options. He would give her the options. By the way MFM do not do deliveries, so no chance for him to tie her tubes. If her regular OB does he would lose his license. However, depending on the seriousness of the rupture they might have to do a cesarean hysterectomy or partial. This will be done to save your life, so you need to talk to your husband regarding this fact and might be the time for you to think about permanent birth control at this point so you are not risking your life in another pregnancy. By the way a cesarean hysterectomy to save the mother's life is totally within the bounds of the Catholic Church Medical Directives. I worked at a Catholic hospital 25 years ago and we did a number of partials (at the patient request) during C-Sections and they were all really tubal, that is the way we got around it. I am sure that her normal OB is trying to find someone to turf her to so they don't have to put up with her any longer.

If they start on the religious topic I suggest that they talk to someone that know a lot more than I do however if they sign the release I will be happy to share basic information.

If one of mine ultra sound tech expressed her opinion during the consultant she would be fired, end of story.

[countressrascal]

Abigail is in the hospital because she started bleeding due her placenta issue. Blessing came in form of a Nun who she spoke with and had a Bible delivered to her room. She is hoping to go home today. Asking for prayers.

[anjulibai]

I think the best case scenario for Abigail is for something to happen for the doctors to need to do a hysterectomy when they go to do the C-section. Then no more babies, and she can say it was God's will.