Open Letter to Duggar Defenders

[neuroticcat]

Has this been discussed yet? She sums it up VERY well.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... nders.html

[albanuadh_1]

Excellent article!

[mebeforee]

I read this the other day, when a friend of mine emailed it to me because she knew I was interested in the Duggars.It really is a good article, and has a lot of excellent links, too. I still have tabs open in my browser from it, some really interesting stuff. I have already noticed some of those sources that were originally posted years ago are getting new comments from defenders, who presumably have found them through the Open Letter, so there might be some entertaining fundie tantrums to watch in the near future.

[Hooligan]

Thank you for sharing this. Really interesting and actually sad.

[Toothfairy]

The defenders are the worst ones. I wish they weren't so stupid and blind.

[roddma]

I say bravo to this except she doesnt address they arent on welfare comments.but I say she covered most areas.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... nders.html

[HarryPotterFan]

I say bravo to this except she doesnt address they arent on welfare comments.but I say she covered most areas.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... nders.html

A counter argument to the welfare argument is: Well, yes but they take advantage of others in every way they can (not that welfare is taking advantage of anyone). They are able to avoid being on welfare by having their own tv show, getting "volunteers" to do all their wedding preparations, get TLC to fund their travels, take advantage of other's hospitality, and take advantage of restaurant deals (who probably consider their children eat free deal after the Duggars come through)

[utter solitude]

A counter argument to the welfare argument is: Well, yes but they take advantage of others in every way they can (not that welfare is taking advantage of anyone). They are able to avoid being on welfare by having their own tv show, getting "volunteers" to do all their wedding preparations, get TLC to fund their travels, take advantage of other's hospitality, and take advantage of restaurant deals (who probably consider their children eat free deal after the Duggars come through)

They are able to avoid welfare because they have plenty of resources. They aren't poor, even without the show.

[sockinshoe]

They are able to avoid welfare because they have plenty of resources. They aren't poor, even without the show.

Before the show, they weren't doing great. They lived all bottled up in that tiny house, using homemade soap, wearing frumpers, and doing home perms. While they were financially afloat, the quality of life must have been very poor, with no privacy, no real personal possessions, and the general rumpus of a herd of kids. As far as the TTH goes, I recall that it had to be rebuilt almost entirely by TLC.

[utter solitude]

Before the show, they weren't doing great. They lived all bottled up in that tiny house, using homemade soap, wearing frumpers, and doing home perms. While they were financially afloat, the quality of life must have been very poor, with no privacy, no real personal possessions, and the general rumpus of a herd of kids. As far as the TTH goes, I recall that it had to be rebuilt almost entirely by TLC.

They were living in the small house by choice, not necessity, because they were building the TTH slowly. They have set themselves up well, and were well enough off that Jim Bob wasn't working a regular job when the specials started. Just because you live in a small house doesn't mean you're poor, it just means you have a small house. (Now, we can get into why the hell didn't they rent/buy a bigger house in the meantime, but this is how they did it)

Can someone provide some source on this "TLC had to rebuild the TTH"? All I've seen is them hurrying it along, so they could film it. I will happily eat crow on that if someone can prove me wrong, tho.

[Coconut Flan]

One reason they were in the small house was as Jim Bob explained not a lot of people want to rent to someone with that many children. They were basically renting houses that were going to be demolished soon anyway.

[trailmix2014]

What does TTH stand for? I looked, but couldn't find it.

[utter solitude]

Tinker Toy House.

They built it with steel kits.

kodiaksteelhomes.com/

[Tom Slick]

What does TTH stand for? I looked, but couldn't find it.

Tinker Toy House or Tater Tot House

[Feberin]

They also owned the house outright that they lived in when 14 Kids was filmed. I don't think they were necessarily well off or rolling in money but I don't think they were on the verge of bankruptcy. Also a lot that TLC has paid for they just wouldn't have done without them. Not that trips haven't benefited the children but without TLC the Duggars wouldn't have gone into debt taking the family on a vacation.

[utter solitude]

^^^^This.

I can understand how easy it is to assume they were living on the edge (I mean, 14 kids!) but I think people forget about/don't know about all the real estate money they were bringing in. It may not have made them rich, but it certainly paid for them pretty well.

[mebeforee]

They were living in the small house by choice, not necessity, because they were building the TTH slowly. They have set themselves up well, and were well enough off that Jim Bob wasn't working a regular job when the specials started. Just because you live in a small house doesn't mean you're poor, it just means you have a small house. (Now, we can get into why the hell didn't they rent/buy a bigger house in the meantime, but this is how they did it)

Can someone provide some source on this "TLC had to rebuild the TTH"? All I've seen is them hurrying it along, so they could film it. I will happily eat crow on that if someone can prove me wrong, tho.

This isn't entirely true, I don't think... they were in a small house, but then they sold it. They moved into the rental house in between the small house and the TTH, but they made it clear that the house they rented during that time was the only one they could get. JimBob specifically says that it was very difficult to find a rental house, with the number of children they have, and the narrator claims they got it because the house was due for demolition. The timeline is confusing, though, because they talk about demolition of the rental house, but Michelle also discusses the fact that it will be hard not to turn down the drive when they get near that area (because they'd been living there so long), and Jinger (who was a preteen at the time) says she was born in that house. So it's weird that their emotional connection to the demolished house is so strong if they've only been there for a few months while they finish the TTH. I think the documentary likely combined two separate situations. The Duggars sold their first house, and the church they sold it to wanted to tear it down so they could use the property for some other purpose, and the only place they were given the opportunity to rent was also due to be demolished. So with the information at hand I just find myself thinking that TLC completed the project so they would have a good dramatic special to play on TV, not that the Duggars themselves had resolved their problems with housing, financing and manpower in time to get the house set up.

[utter solitude]

This isn't entirely true, I don't think... they were in a small house, but then they sold it. They moved into the rental house in between the small house and the TTH, but they made it clear that the house they rented during that time was the only one they could get. JimBob specifically says that it was very difficult to find a rental house, with the number of children they have, and the narrator claims they got it because the house was due for demolition. The timeline is confusing, though, because they talk about demolition of the rental house, but Michelle also discusses the fact that it will be hard not to turn down the drive when they get near that area (because they'd been living there so long), and Jinger (who was a preteen at the time) says she was born in that house. So it's weird that their emotional connection to the demolished house is so strong if they've only been there for a few months while they finish the TTH. I think the documentary likely combined two separate situations. The Duggars sold their first house, and the church they sold it to wanted to tear it down so they could use the property for some other purpose, and the only place they were given the opportunity to rent was also due to be demolished. So with the information at hand I just find myself thinking that TLC completed the project so they would have a good dramatic special to play on TV, not that the Duggars themselves had resolved their problems with housing, financing and manpower in time to get the house set up.

Thank you for the clarification. It also seemed to me that they changed housing because the TTH was nearing completion. As in, if TLC wasn't stepping in to finish it, they would have stayed put in the old house and not rent one for the between time.

[mebeforee]

Yeah, I think you're probably right. I don't think a church (at least not one the Duggars would have been willing to sell to) would have strong-armed them into moving. But I think TLC really edited things in a way to make it look like a more pressing issue than it probably was, and I think that the house demolition the family watched was their original house (with the early 90's sidewalk panel they'd written their names in), not the rental house which TLC specifically pointed to as being the demolition house. So for some reason, TLC wanted the audience to think that the rental house was the one being torn down while also getting emotional gratification through a family-wide loss... they didn't want people to know how close the Duggars were to being homeless. And TLC did put a huge effort toward finishing the big house, they say 'it was a challenge we couldn't resist', even though they clearly hired construction workers to finish the stuff who didn't get any credit for their work. But if not for the channel and the value of the family for ratings, I don't know where the Duggars would be. (Taking the church that bought their property to court, so they could keep living there, probably.)

[utter solitude]

Yeah, I think you're probably right. I don't think a church (at least not one the Duggars would have been willing to sell to) would have strong-armed them into moving. But I think TLC really edited things in a way to make it look like a more pressing issue than it probably was, and I think that the house demolition the family watched was their original house (with the early 90's sidewalk panel they'd written their names in), not the rental house which TLC specifically pointed to as being the demolition house. So for some reason, TLC wanted the audience to think that the rental house was the one being torn down while also getting emotional gratification through a family-wide loss... they didn't want people to know how close the Duggars were to being homeless. And TLC did put a huge effort toward finishing the big house, they say 'it was a challenge we couldn't resist', even though they clearly hired construction workers to finish the stuff who didn't get any credit for their work. But if not for the channel and the value of the family for ratings, I don't know where the Duggars would be. (Taking the church that bought their property to court, so they could keep living there, probably.)

The timeline is sketchy. Either the Duggars sold their house and moved into a rental (and I find that hard to believe, because I'm sure they would have finished the TTH, just slowly if it wasn't for TLC footing a lot of the bill) or TLC encouraged them to do so by telling them the new house would be soon done, and they were just getting the sale of their old property out of the way. I find that second scenario to be more likely, and a bit disturbing. I don't think the Duggars would have sold the house they owned without a clear timeframe for when the TTH would be done, as they don't believe in renting.

[mebeforee]

The timeline is sketchy. Either the Duggars sold their house and moved into a rental (and I find that hard to believe, because I'm sure they would have finished the TTH, just slowly if it wasn't for TLC footing a lot of the bill) or TLC encouraged them to do so by telling them the new house would be soon done, and they were just getting the sale of their old property out of the way. I find that second scenario to be more likely, and a bit disturbing. I don't think the Duggars would have sold the house they owned without a clear timeframe for when the TTH would be done, as they don't believe in renting.

I think in most cases they don't believe in renting (at least not when it's their own family - JimBob is way into real estate and a few times the show has included some of the people who rent property from him) but I also think the Duggars sometimes overestimate their own abilities. If they thought they could complete the project in a certain timeframe, they might have sold the house and then been sorry when they couldn't keep with that schedule. When you look at the 14 Kids special, the (weirdly sweet) 16-year-old Josh candidly discusses the fact that they're doing construction they don't really know how to do, and how he tells his dad, 'this is really dangerous'. Josh was pretty young and innocent at the time, so maybe he was just underestimating his abilities, but it's also possible that they really bit off more than they could chew and JimBob was trying to build a house he didn't have the skills or manpower to complete. So they could have moved out because they thought they were close to finished on the big house, or maybe TLC had them do it because they had already decided to complete the house themselves. But there's also the possibility that they thought they'd be done in a certain time but they weren't, because the people doing the construction were not in any way trained for that kind of work. Because while the special emphasized their family working together to build the house, we don't see much actual building from them, just learning from construction field trips. There's nothing of the family working on the staircases or the siding or the plumbing or any of that. Which isn't proof that they didn't do it, but it is suspicious considering the image the show was trying to get across.

[RosyDaisy]

So, JB didn't own a rental house they could have used before the TTH was completed? Something's not adding up or I'm just confused.

[lilith]

It's worth noting that while they were living in their original tiny 3 bedroom/1 bathroom home JimBob bankrolled his own (losing) senate nomination. He had resources, he just chose not to spend them on improving his families living situation as his eldest kids hit adolescence and the babies kept coming.

But it turns out it was all god's will, cause coverage of that campaign eventually led to TLC coming knocking......

[utter solitude]

I think in most cases they don't believe in renting (at least not when it's their own family - JimBob is way into real estate and a few times the show has included some of the people who rent property from him) but I also think the Duggars sometimes overestimate their own abilities. If they thought they could complete the project in a certain timeframe, they might have sold the house and then been sorry when they couldn't keep with that schedule. When you look at the 14 Kids special, the (weirdly sweet) 16-year-old Josh candidly discusses the fact that they're doing construction they don't really know how to do, and how he tells his dad, 'this is really dangerous'. Josh was pretty young and innocent at the time, so maybe he was just underestimating his abilities, but it's also possible that they really bit off more than they could chew and JimBob was trying to build a house he didn't have the skills or manpower to complete. So they could have moved out because they thought they were close to finished on the big house, or maybe TLC had them do it because they had already decided to complete the house themselves. But there's also the possibility that they thought they'd be done in a certain time but they weren't, because the people doing the construction were not in any way trained for that kind of work. Because while the special emphasized their family working together to build the house, we don't see much actual building from them, just learning from construction field trips. There's nothing of the family working on the staircases or the siding or the plumbing or any of that. Which isn't proof that they didn't do it, but it is suspicious considering the image the show was trying to get across.

This is a good point!

Rosy - you're assuming they owned tons of residential property at that time, and all sources I've seen indicate they don't, and what little they do have has been acquired more recently. I'm on board with the idea that they were renting because the TTH would be finished soon, either because they made that timeframe or TLC did. (Which is something we'll likely never know)

[roddma]

According to 20 and Counting ,JB and Michelle had a mortgage when they first married. They moved from this house to the car lot paying rent on this house plus the mortgage on the first. The mortgaged home is the one they rented and then eventually to the church. The house before the TTH was the 2300 sqft Johnson Road House. The book still isnt too clear on the time frame from there to the TTH.

.It does sound like Boob invested wisely in the beginning. However not all QF families live like this. I say more live like the Bateses. But some die hard defenders think they Duggasr have always lived lavishly.