Richard Dawkins: Immoral not to abort a fetus with Down's

[Mama Mia]

Working with him also helped me realize I didn't want to parent, not so much for reasons having to do with developmental disability. My best way of dealing with frustration, anger, or other emotions I don't want to inflict on someone else is to go walk it off. And that doesn't work if the person you're frustrated with is a child.

Veering into off-topic....but you can definitely modify " walking it off " as a coping mechanism and use it when you have children. My children are alive today to tell you it can be done :lol:

With infants and toddlers you have two options -- you can put them in a crib or other safe, contained spot, turn on the baby monitor and walk circles around the inside or outside of your house. If you have stairs you can climb up and down them. The other option is to put them in a stroller and go on a long walk with them. If it's their screaming/crying /whining that's making you angry- bring your iPod so you can walk, still make sure the kid is safe, and not have to listen to it for a bit.

Pre-schoolers are a little trickier - but you can stick them on an iPad or in front of the tv and get away with the stairs or walk around the house option. Use the earphones to down them out. Or take them to the park and walk around the perimeter of the playground while they play.

School age on up-- just tell them you need to walk to cool off and walk around the block a few times.

Times when I was really frustrated and for some reason couldn't walk away ( well the times I didn't just have a complete melt down :embarrassed: ) ..I found that taking a long shower with loud music playing helped a lot. I could cry or yell and no one would hear- and the waters relaxing.

Just some thoughts. :)

Eta: I was a fairly crunchy, co-sleeping, non cry it out mama--- but it won't hurt a baby for you to take a 15 minute break for a walk when you can't take the screaming for one more second. And kids aged 2 +, it's good for them to know that other people have actual needs and emotions too, and to see ways to handle anger and frustration.

[RachelB]

Thank you, Mama Mia! Still unlikely to have children, but nice to know that I would likely not have broken them. :D

[It'sFunToRun]

I did summer care for six years for a child / teen with a significant developmental disability (not Down) and impulse control problems, who was initially expected never to be toilet trained, who was not expected to talk.

The initial assessments he received were wrong. Understanding him is easier if you've already spent some time with him, but he's definitely communicative. He's unlikely to ever live independently or to do some of the things he yearns to do (e.g., driving), but he's sociable enough to enjoy a group home where he could get assistance with stuff he can't do on his own.

It was a good experience, and a terrible one, and an exhausting one. I spent a lot of time and energy learning his thought and communication patterns, trying to figure out how he might best learn new skills, being excited with him when he figured something out (like the first time he rode a bike), brainstorming how the heck a person might handle developmentally normal teenage moodiness minus some resources for emotional management that most people have.

Working with him changed me. Before I worked with him, my ideas about cognitive capability and consciousness were a lot more rigid, and a lot more black and white, than they are now.

Working with him also helped me realize I didn't want to parent, not so much for reasons having to do with developmental disability. My best way of dealing with frustration, anger, or other emotions I don't want to inflict on someone else is to go walk it off. And that doesn't work if the person you're frustrated with is a child.

My best way of dealing is to run it off, what's the problem?! The people who need to think hard about it are the ones who deal with their problems by acting out violently.

[Curious]

First of all, that sucks that you get treated poorly. I will try not to do that to other people in wheelchairs now that I am aware of it.

I'm not sure I agree with the reason why you think people act annoyed/uncomfortable around people in wheelchairs. I've never been disabled, so there's no reason that I should know better than you, but it seems to me that people feel uncomfortable around disabled people because they are afraid of offending them. For example, someone mentioned that if you have a disability, people won't look at you, and I think that's because as little kids our inclination is to stare at people with disabilities, then adults tell us that we're being rude, so as to not be rude we look away and ignore the problem all together.

I have dual citizenship, US and another country that I prefer not to name, even though it's probably pretty obvious to people who read a lot of my posts. I've spent a lot of time in both, and in my country people touch a lot more, are less afraid of offending other people, and get offended less easily. I think this makes us less uncomfortable around disabled people, because for instance if we see a blind person getting on a bus, someone will jump up and grab their arm and guide them to a seat, whereas in more polite places people are too afraid they will offend the blind person by acknowledging their difference, so they'll stay in their place, but then the bus starts to move and the blind person doesn't know where the railings are so you're afraid that they might fall down and land on you, which makes you nervous. It's a cultural thing, because I can't tell a blind person that they are wrong for getting mad when a complete stranger touches them when they didn't ask for help, but in other cultures that is the norm.

If people wouldn't hesitate to point out your difference, for instance say to you "hey, do you want help getting your wheelchair up the curb?", "maybe since you're in a wheelchair, you want to have an aisle seat?" do you think that would be a good thing or a bad thing? I can only guess what I'd prefer, since I've never been in your position.

Btw, I dislike calling you "disabled" because it sounds like it means "un-abled" which is false. I like "handicapped" better because it reminds me of horse racing, where it makes it harder for the horse to win, but he's still in the same race. I'll call you "disabled" though anyway because I assume that's what you prefer.

I think that is also part of it as well. I guess I didn't articulate it, but kind of implied it with my 2 kiddo stories. I always am sure to tell any child that helps me thank you and make eye contact with them and more importantly (IMO), I tell the parent(s) that their child helped me and how much I appreciate it. Often children, if left to their own devices are just curious so they want to ask questions or just kind of scope you out, but their parents won't let them. If I notice a child showing some interest in my wheelchair or just kind of shyly looking at me with interest I will usually try talking to them or say something to the parent about how cute/well mannered/whatever I can come up with off the top of my head their child is or I might "accidentally" drop something which tends to be a big magnet for some children and they will scurry over to pick it up for me, so then I get a chance to thank them and tell the parent how much I appreciate their child helping.

There are people who don't like help. I'm not one of them. If you see me struggling, please help me! My ego is not that huge that I have to do everything myself or I'm somehow less than. My legs do not work. It's a fact of life. I think struggling with the door stubbornly makes me look worse than just accepting some generously offered help. People are generally really good about opening doors. Lots of other areas they fail miserably in, but opening doors is one area where people almost always offer to help, even if we say we have it, people will still help the majority of the time.

Speaking for myself, I'm never offended if people ask if I need help. How do they know if they don't ask. I'd rather have someone ask me and me say no thanks, I got it than to sit and struggle, but I am pretty mellow about the whole thing. I wasn't always, but I came to a point where I had to live with the cards I was dealt or "not live" (not in a suicide sense, but in a self-pity kind of way, if that makes sense). If people offer to help me do something, even if I can do it myself, I will generally accept their help because I appreciated their offer. I figure why be bitchy about it People usually don't offer unless it looks like it is something that I might be having issues with (whether I actually am or not).

I can't speak for other disabilities, but I suspect the reason people don't like to be "helped" (in general) is because often times the help is anything but and sometimes it's really "help" for the other person. For me I have issues with people treating my wheelchair like a community object, for lack of a better description. To me it's an extension of me, so you shouldn't be touching it unless I know you pretty well or you have permission to be pushing me somewhere. People will just grab hold of me and move me out of their way though rather than asking me to just move myself. You'd never just push an able-bodied person out of the way in the grocery store to get to the item you want. You'd say excuse me please or can you please scoot over or something.

I've been sitting looking at the back of a box and the next thing I know I'm rolling down the aisle with no steering because someone just pushed me out of the way so they could get the item they wanted. Once in Walmart, I was looking at something on an end cap and my husband was several aisles away grabbing something else off another end cap. There was a guy kind of near me so I asked him if I was in his way and he needed me to move. He said no, so I went back to looking at whatever I was looking at. Next thing I know I'm moving, my husband sees a stranger pushing me, flips out and starts racing back toward me, I had my feet on the floor rather than the foot rests of the wheelchair, so when the guy sees and angry man racing toward him, he stops pushing the chair, leaving it on top of my toes. So now I'm kind of freaking out, but my husband thinks it's over the guy pushing me. I'm saying my toes, my toes. He thinks he hit me with the cart. We finally get my toes free. Why even touch my chair if I've asked you if I'm in your way and you said no. If I am now in your way, ask me to move. You know I can talk plainly by that point.

I don't really care what people call me. Handicapped works. Some people don't like that. It's all 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other to me. It's the behavior that matters to me. You can call me a purple person or a bunny or an alien it doesn't really matter as long as I'm being treated like a person ;)

[RachelB]

My best way of dealing is to run it off, what's the problem?! The people who need to think hard about it are the ones who deal with their problems by acting out violently.

That works well when the person you're frustrated with has enough judgment so you can take a break. Some people-- for instance, very small children-- don't have that. At some point, my sister-in-law handed me an inconsolable, purple-crying infant for a couple hours so she could take a desperately needed nap. If I'd had a stroller and mp3 player and Mama Mia's advice, that would've been awesome.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I have no idea. I don't think anyone could know until they're in that circumstance. I wouldn't kill them if that's what you're thinking. Off hand I can think of four options:

1) Take care of it myself

2) Put it in hospice care/ group home

3) Try to find someone to adopt it (I realize that if it's out of babyhood this isn't likely)

4) Legally not take the medical steps that would keep it alive (this is a legal option in some cases, but not others)

No way! I've already mentioned that I'm pro-choice, and I also have no moral problem with birth control, but it's my dream to have a quiver full :) Life is full of risks. When I ride the bus I'm risking becoming paralyzed in an accident, but I do it anyway. It would be a sad life to be so afraid that something will go wrong.

No, I didn't mean to imply that you might harm a child of your own. I hope my question didn't come across that way. And I agree that one shouldn't go through life thinking something terrible can happen. The only thing that's getting me through not worrying constantly about what will happen in the future with my son's cancer treatment and overall health is the realization that I owe it to him and myself to try to make the most of every day we have together. We should try to make every day count together instead of me wasting time constantly worrying.

Thanks, I was honestly interested to hear what you thought and I do appreciate your answers.

[shedemei]

For me I have issues with people treating my wheelchair like a community object, for lack of a better description. To me it's an extension of me, so you shouldn't be touching it unless I know you pretty well or you have permission to be pushing me somewhere. People will just grab hold of me and move me out of their way though rather than asking me to just move myself. You'd never just push an able-bodied person out of the way in the grocery store to get to the item you want. You'd say excuse me please or can you please scoot over or something.

:wtf: I am really shocked by that (and especially the story you told, which I didn't quote for brevity). Really shocked. How could people do that? Do they not see you as a person?

I have had the occasional middle-aged lady tell me that my hair is pretty and then stick her hands in it, which I thought was incredibly rude and disrespectful. Pushing around your wheelchair goes way beyond that.

[Mama Mia]

:wtf: I am really shocked by that (and especially the story you told, which I didn't quote for brevity). Really shocked. How could people do that? Do they not see you as a person?

I have had the occasional middle-aged lady tell me that my hair is pretty and then stick her hands in it, which I thought was incredibly rude and disrespectful. Pushing around your wheelchair goes way beyond that.

In my experience, no many people really do not see someone on who is visibly disabled as a person. For me, I only started needing to use a mobility device in the last couple of years- I use a rollator that converts to a wheelchair - - and being treated like an object that's in the way-- like the wheel chair is empty, is bizarrely common.

And another shallow thing, but one that really bothers me, as a middle aged woman, I was getting used to men seldom looking at me the way they did when I was younger. I don't mean full on ogling , but just the casual looks of " hmm, you're kind of attractive" . As I aged those became fairly uncommon, but they still happened occassionaly . But once I was using the walker /wheelchair those kind of looks stopped completely. Dead stop. I might as well be a cat or a bookshelf.

[Marianne]

:wtf: I am really shocked by that (and especially the story you told, which I didn't quote for brevity). Really shocked. How could people do that? Do they not see you as a person?

I have had the occasional middle-aged lady tell me that my hair is pretty and then stick her hands in it, which I thought was incredibly rude and disrespectful. Pushing around your wheelchair goes way beyond that.

They do this EVERYTIME. And no, you're not a person, you're just a disable. I'm a music teacher (choir conductor), and some parents have refused that I was the teacher of their children :roll: They also ask questions when they don't know you. "Please, why are you in a wheelchair ?" or "Why can you walk and are you in a wheelchair ?" "and you, why are you rude and stupid ?" (okay, I have stopped to answer this since a man punch me in the face, I just answer "none of your business")

I can't stand also people who ask "Do you need help". Of course, I answer with a "No, thank you" and a smile because good manners, but I CAN SPEAK :angry-banghead: If I need help, I'm not ashamed to ask help from people around me. When I'm lost, I ask people for the direction. When I can't do something, I ask people to do it, periods. I hate this state of mind who think "disable people can't ask to be helped." We can speak and we can ask by ourself when we need help.

[GiGi_41]

As a person who is always looking to help people, I kind of take umbrage with you getting mad about someone asking if you need help. Maybe the person asking is just trying to be kind, or maybe they think you are looking at something on the top shelf and hate being in that same predicament? I am short and there are a lot of times when I can't reach things on the top shelf at the store and it infuriates me when 10 people walk by when I'm struggling. I am an equal opportunity helper and just because you are in a wheelchair doesn't mean I'm not going to ask for fear of offending you.

[Marianne]

As a person who is always looking to help people, I kind of take umbrage with you getting mad about someone asking if you need help. Maybe the person asking is just trying to be kind, or maybe they think you are looking at something on the top shelf and hate being in that same predicament? I am short and there are a lot of times when I can't reach things on the top shelf at the store and it infuriates me when 10 people walk by when I'm struggling. I am an equal opportunity helper and just because you are in a wheelchair doesn't mean I'm not going to ask for fear of offending you.

I understand that people try to be kind, that's why I'm not violent against them. Even if I know that most people ask to help me because I'm often slow and it stress them. But I believe in autonomy, and my version of autonomy is to be able to understand when you can't do things and to ask for help. Autonomy is not trying to do things that you can't, this is pride and this is stupid, and this is not waiting for the people around you to help you. I don't think that asking for help is a weakness.

My wife has a speech impediment. In stores, people often ask her : "Do you want me to finish your sentences ?" (in fact, they often finished her sentences. But a lot ask) ecause they think that speaking is difficult . It's kind of them, of course, and so my wife feel humiliated because this people think she is unable to speak because she don't do this like them or to ask for help. Same for me. I'm slow because my muscle are weak and my bones fragile. People often ask for help, and I feel humiliated because this people can't accept that I did things differently and that I'm able to ask for help by myself. I have a tongue, I can ask.

[Curious]

As a person who is always looking to help people, I kind of take umbrage with you getting mad about someone asking if you need help. Maybe the person asking is just trying to be kind, or maybe they think you are looking at something on the top shelf and hate being in that same predicament? I am short and there are a lot of times when I can't reach things on the top shelf at the store and it infuriates me when 10 people walk by when I'm struggling. I am an equal opportunity helper and just because you are in a wheelchair doesn't mean I'm not going to ask for fear of offending you.

In my experience, it's usually pretty easy to tell the people that are asking to help because they are just that kind of person from the people that are being....less charitable.

I don't want to make a separate post for this so I'm just tacking it on here. When I was first disabled, my (now) husband and I went to NYC and met with several friends from the chat room that we met in. I had only been disabled maybe 3-4 months and was still in a lot of pain, had no real dr. care, still had no movement in my left foot (foot drop) and was no where near coming to grips with the whole thing yet.

So we were with one of our friends, who came up a day earlier than everyone else, at the Empire State Building. I had bought some post cards to send to people from where I'd moved from and my husband and I were in line and our friend was standing a bit to the front and off to the side looking at some stuff on the wall about the ESB.

There was a guy standing behind us and I guess he decided that it was taking too long (not our fault, the checker was super slow), so to go past me, instead of going on the aisle side which, naturally, had tons of room, he decided to squeeze between my wheelchair and the counter.

If you think about how most people stand at a checkout counter there generally isn't a lot of room. This was the case here. My chair was only probably 6-8 inches from the counter, so his plan went ok until he was about in the middle of the chair and realized he had TWO legs. Instead of backing up, he actually lifted his other left OVER my head and put it down in front of my chair and then took his other step with the leg between the chair and the counter.

My husband stood there with his mouth hanging open. I sat there with my mouth hanging out. Our friend turned around just in time to see this happening and stopped dead...with his mouth hanging open.

The guy just continued on his way like nothing had happened. I sat there for a few seconds and finally said: Did that really just happen? Then I did the only thing you can do when someone steps over you head at the Empire State Building. I started laughing. Who thinks it's ok to step OVER someone like that? Who tries to squeeze between another person and a counter?

The whole thing was just so bizarre. We still laugh about it. Today my reaction would be a little different than it was back then. I'm a little quicker to react when someone touches the chair than I was at the beginning ;) Our squeezing through friend would be singing soprano if he tried that today. I don't know what he would have done if I happened to be a taller person (wheelchairs are measured based on height (and other things) so you can comfortably reach the ground when sitting and your legs aren't left dangling).

[twinmama]

Back to your question, I think Down Syndrome is more well known (most people probably went to school with one or more) and is able to be diagnosed in pregnancy. I don't know exactly what you mean by "not the worst" diagnosis; if I had to pick one or the other, I'd rather have a fetus with infantile Tay-Sachs; death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person.

I am not going to get into the abort a baby with Down Syndrome or not issue because I haven't been in that position and I honestly have no idea what I would do. So I don't judge people who make either decision. BUT, are you a parent? Because I am and I can easily, without a second of hesitation say that yes, death is the worst thing that can happen to your child. I would take Down syndrome 100 times over before my child dying of any illness or condition. I faced the loss of my children when they were born incredibly small and early, faced the possibility of lifelong disabilities, and the ONLY fucking thing I cared about was that they survive and I get to know them.

[Grimalkin]

So if I understand people offer to help becuase they are trying to move you along faster becuase they feel you are slowing them down. I was trying to understand the idea of people not really helping. Or are people patronizing you? I am a sentNce finisher. I know it's annoying and try not to, it's an impulsive action. If I am talking to someone with a speech impediment I don't, I try and listen carefully.

I guess I would rather make the mistake of being helpful than not.

[twinmama]

Veering into off-topic....but you can definitely modify " walking it off " as a coping mechanism and use it when you have children. My children are alive today to tell you it can be done :lol:

With infants and toddlers you have two options -- you can put them in a crib or other safe, contained spot, turn on the baby monitor and walk circles around the inside or outside of your house. If you have stairs you can climb up and down them. The other option is to put them in a stroller and go on a long walk with them. If it's their screaming/crying /whining that's making you angry- bring your iPod so you can walk, still make sure the kid is safe, and not have to listen to it for a bit.

Pre-schoolers are a little trickier - but you can stick them on an iPad or in front of the tv and get away with the stairs or walk around the house option. Use the earphones to down them out. Or take them to the park and walk around the perimeter of the playground while they play.

School age on up-- just tell them you need to walk to cool off and walk around the block a few times.

Times when I was really frustrated and for some reason couldn't walk away ( well the times I didn't just have a complete melt down :embarrassed: ) ..I found that taking a long shower with loud music playing helped a lot. I could cry or yell and no one would hear- and the waters relaxing.

Just some thoughts. :)

Eta: I was a fairly crunchy, co-sleeping, non cry it out mama--- but it won't hurt a baby for you to take a 15 minute break for a walk when you can't take the screaming for one more second. And kids aged 2 +, it's good for them to know that other people have actual needs and emotions too, and to see ways to handle anger and frustration.

Haha, this is why my 2.5 year olds are still here too! Sometimes they just sat in their cribs screaming while I sat in my room and sobbed. Then we all got back together, had hugs and moved on. And right now, sometimes they watch 10 minutes of Frozen while I take 10 minutes alone in the bathroom to calm down. Sometimes you just need to step away or risk throttling them :)

[RosyDaisy]

Sorry, but I can't mind my words here. IFTR, you are either a troll or one sick mother fucking monster. Either way, you disgust me!

[Palimpsest]

In my experience, no many people really do not see someone on who is visibly disabled as a person. For me, I only started needing to use a mobility device in the last couple of years- I use a rollator that converts to a wheelchair - - and being treated like an object that's in the way-- like the wheel chair is empty, is bizarrely common.

And another shallow thing, but one that really bothers me, as a middle aged woman, I was getting used to men seldom looking at me the way they did when I was younger. I don't mean full on ogling , but just the casual looks of " hmm, you're kind of attractive" . As I aged those became fairly uncommon, but they still happened occassionaly . But once I was using the walker /wheelchair those kind of looks stopped completely. Dead stop. I might as well be a cat or a bookshelf.

I think education about disability awareness is key and I applaud you both for your attitudes. I think the key for "able" people around you seeing you in difficulties is to ask: "May I help?" and "How best can I help -- you tell me?" Not to assume anything.

But, just so you know, people pushing your wheel-chair out of their way without permission does count, legally, as assault. Just as much as if someone laid hands on my person and shoved me out of their way. Your wheelchair or mobility device is actually a part of your physical being. People do not get to shove you. And if they shove you aside and injure you, then please do not hesitate to sue their socks off.

Education is fine and dandy, but sometimes litigation and $$ are needed to draw attention to the issue.

I have a dx of RA. I can still function really well (thanks meds) when not experiencing a flare. When I'm in a minor flare, keeping moving because I have to, but definitely not obviously "disabled' I struggle a bit. I do know that moving like molasses has caused me to be bumped aside and that is sometimes a shit-load lot of pain. I am so not litigious and I'm still grappling with the "Am I disabled?" bit. Because, damn it, I'm still so f'ing ableist! :lol:

But, as my joints (especially my hands) begin to look more and more disfigured and my hair gets grayer, I am offered help. I always thank people and sometimes accept it if I need it. Thanks for modeling this behavior for me. :)

But people should always keep their hands to themselves unless given permission. No-one gets to shove a wheelchair user out of their way.

Bottom line.

[utter solitude]

Just floating this out there, but I was raised to ask people if they need help. And that's what I do. If I was in the grocery store and someone in a wheelchair was, say, looking at something on a shelf they couldn't reach, I would ask if they need help. I would do and have done the same for children, the elderly, pregnant women and the overweight.

I have been told by some disabled people I know that they don't like to be asked if they need help, and others have said that they don't mind or even appreciate the gesture. I know you want to be independent, I know that this is very important to some, but I can't tell by looking at someone if they're going to be offended or feel patronized if I ask if they need help. I'd rather err on the side of being helpful.

I'm pointing this out because I do feel that most people are just trying to be helpful. I mean, of course some people are assholes (I mean, touching your wheelchair, stepping over you? WTF!) but there are always assholes, and they make themselves known. But I think most people are just trying to help, and aren't trying to make you feel humiliated or like less of a person.

[thoughtful]

Instead of backing up, he actually lifted his other left OVER my head and put it down in front of my chair and then took his other step with the leg between the chair and the counter.

:shock:

That's about as bizarre as it gets.

Maybe Rude Dude was a fan of the Nicholas Brothers, and thought you should just sit there, like a saxophone player, and let him do his thing:

[bBvideo 560,340:u2y7rfj5]

[/bBvideo]

My criterion for offering help is the affect of the person -- if I see someone looking like they are frustrated with getting a stroller through a door, looking up at something they can't reach, etc., I ask if I can do anything for them -- the state of their body and whether or not they are using any mobility equipment doesn't enter into it at all.

[Mama Mia]

I don't know how I'd feel about strangers offering help in general. I rarely get out, and when I do I have a family member with me. I actually think it might be nice if I'm in obvious distress and someone offered to help. I've had two occasions where I've fallen over with the rollator ( I'm still getting used to it and balance is my main issue) ...in a crowded public place..and Not one person offered to help or did anything but stare. That was pretty fucked up in my opinion.

Or even just move out of the way. If I'm in a crowded place, like a festival, or a busy sidewalk, you would think people would realize it's much easier for them to maneuver to the side to pass -- but mostly they don't. And will either block the way, or do the physically pushing to the side that others have mentioned. Seriously, I had no idea how rude so many people are until I was in this situation.

I just wish people wouldn't act like I actual WAS the rollator, instead of an actual human being. Or a novelty that they are free to just ask random questions. Or the well meaning but creepy " God Bless You" , which just isn't done here.

[Marianne]

So if I understand people offer to help becuase they are trying to move you along faster becuase they feel you are slowing them down. I was trying to understand the idea of people not really helping. Or are people patronizing you? I am a sentNce finisher. I know it's annoying and try not to, it's an impulsive action. If I am talking to someone with a speech impediment I don't, I try and listen carefully.

I guess I would rather make the mistake of being helpful than not.

Yes, I feel it that way : people offer to help because they can't understand that I do things just slowly. Or they do things that I ask my therapy dog to do because they can't accept that my dog CAN do it. Ireland was so cool because here, people did not complain that I was slowing them down, they just accept it.

I think also it's too easy for disable people to wait. It's more easy to wait for people to help you than to ask, because we live in a society where accepting the help is okay, when asking for help = weakness. I don't believe it. I don't think I should just wait for people to help me and then complain when they don't do it, I believe it's not a weakness from myself to go and to ask. Of course, if they refused, here I complain :roll:

[It'sFunToRun]

Sorry, but I can't mind my words here. IFTR, you are either a troll or one sick mother fucking monster. Either way, you disgust me!

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this discussion! :D

[Curious]

I don't know how I'd feel about strangers offering help in general. I rarely get out, and when I do I have a family member with me. I actually think it might be nice if I'm in obvious distress and someone offered to help. I've had two occasions where I've fallen over with the rollator ( I'm still getting used to it and balance is my main issue) ...in a crowded public place..and Not one person offered to help or did anything but stare. That was pretty fucked up in my opinion.

Or even just move out of the way. If I'm in a crowded place, like a festival, or a busy sidewalk, you would think people would realize it's much easier for them to maneuver to the side to pass -- but mostly they don't. And will either block the way, or do the physically pushing to the side that others have mentioned. Seriously, I had no idea how rude so many people are until I was in this situation.

I just wish people wouldn't act like I actual WAS the rollator, instead of an actual human being. Or a novelty that they are free to just ask random questions. Or the well meaning but creepy " God Bless You" , which just isn't done here.

The bold is my husband's greatest pet peeve. I don't have a motorized wheelchair. I don't think my husband fully trusts me not to just run people over that annoy me ;) Seriously, I don't use a chair in the house and I don't go out enough to justify the expense for us at this point. Maybe if I get to the point that I am even less mobile, I will consider one, but for right now I just have a manual chair.

So my husband pushes it the majority of the time because I can really only push myself for relatively short distances before it increases my pain. People pay NO attention to the fact that there is something rolling behind them. He hates it when he's pushing me up an incline and suddenly people in front of us STOP dead unexpectedly and then he has to either also immediately stop trying not to ram into them, hurting both them and me or swerve around them hoping that he doesn't run my feet into anything that might be in the way.

I have gotten *really* good over the years of pulling my feet back so that the foot rests take any hits rather than my feet, particularly since I am unable to wear shoes. So it's just my sock feet that are up for the potential abuse.

When we were on that same trip in NYC, our friend that was with us took my canes and held them end to end (sideways) and walked in front of me acting like a plow. He actually shouldered some people out of the way they were getting that close. It was crazy. One guy was really crowding us and he ran into one of the canes. He turned around to yell and my friend still walking backwards and walked right into a parked car and fell over the hood of it. NYC was very amusing in a number of ways that trip ;)

Businesses in NYC were incredibly wheelchair friendly though, which I found rather refreshing. Well except for the TGIFriday's near Madison Square Garden. I don't recommend you ever go there. Disabled or not. It was such a horrifying experience that I WALKED down 3 flights of stairs to get out of the building (at a time when I had still had no feeling in one foot). I was willing to risk the fall and resultant trip to the hospital rather than ride back down in the garbage elevator (the way I got up to the third floor) and that wasn't even the worst part of the evening :(

[Curious]

:shock:

That's about as bizarre as it gets.

Maybe Rude Dude was a fan of the Nicholas Brothers, and thought you should just sit there, like a saxophone player, and let him do his thing:

[bBvideo 560,340:27sloyyp]

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My criterion for offering help is the affect of the person -- if I see someone looking like they are frustrated with getting a stroller through a door, looking up at something they can't reach, etc., I ask if I can do anything for them -- the state of their body and whether or not they are using any mobility equipment doesn't enter into it at all.

That clip was great! I love that you have videos for every situation, thoughtful :) I love watching tap dance. That made me smile :)

I agree with your criteria for helping people. I offer to help people (or I offer my husband to help them oftentimes ;) ) if I see people struggling with things as well. Particularly, if it's something I know I struggled with in the past (like getting a stroller through a door when you also are trying to control a toddler and carry bags etc).

We usually hold the door for people because that's just good manners. Often once they are through the door, they will then grab it and hold it open so my husband can push me though. We are pretty good at door navigation after all these years, but someone holding the door does make it easier, of course. We always *both* say thank you.

[Grimalkin]

I am really appreciating this discussion. I can't even imagine somebody just moving a persons wheel chair like it was a wayward cart left in the middle of the aisle!!

I wonder if the rude people in NYC were the tourists. We were there last summer and were surprised at how friendly people were. One day while crossing a street a car nearly hit me and I involuntarily screamed..... I was startled. A group of construction workers threw down their tools and shouted at the driver. Also my son wanderd off and seriously, when I called his name everyone stopped what they were doing and stRted looking for him. It was only about two minutes but felt like forever.