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Richard Dawkins: Immoral not to abort a fetus with Down's


ILikePie

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Since Godwin's Law doesn't apply if you are actually discussing the Holocaust, here's a blurb from the family tree about my grandmother's half-sister:

Herminia Schwartz (1927 – 1943, Cuba) [Her mother Anna inadvertently birthed her in the bathroom, where Herminia dropped onto her head and suffered brain damage. She was known as “bebé†(Spanish for “babyâ€) in the family. Her father sought help for her in Europe, but without success. She was left in the care of Anna’s mother and two single brothers Oscar and Carl. When the Nazis rose to power, she was singled out for being both Jewish and retarded, and died in the Holocaust]

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The shelter we volunteer at had close to an 85% euth rate for cats around 10 years ago. The 15% of the cats not killed include owners whose cats got picked up and they came to claim them and rescues that take the cats, there was a very small percentage of people actually adopting cats. One of the reasons is because people would look at them, see these cats huddled over in a corner stressed and go somewhere else. Workers just don't have time to interact with the cats and a cat that is put in a strange environment, stuck in a tiny cage and not given any human interaction is quickly going turn into a cat that families aren't going to want to adopt. Having volunteers pet and play with the cats has drastically improved the adoption rate. I am not a huge cat person and when we first started volunteering at the shelter we were originally with the dogs, but when we found out about how they really needed volunteers with the cats, we went with that. It does seem like a very small thing, but for the cat it can be the difference between getting adopted and being killed.

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The shelter we volunteer at had close to an 85% euth rate for cats around 10 years ago. The 15% of the cats not killed include owners whose cats got picked up and they came to claim them and rescues that take the cats, there was a very small percentage of people actually adopting cats. One of the reasons is because people would look at them, see these cats huddled over in a corner stressed and go somewhere else. Workers just don't have time to interact with the cats and a cat that is put in a strange environment, stuck in a tiny cage and not given any human interaction is quickly going turn into a cat that families aren't going to want to adopt. Having volunteers pet and play with the cats has drastically improved the adoption rate. I am not a huge cat person and when we first started volunteering at the shelter we were originally with the dogs, but when we found out about how they really needed volunteers with the cats, we went with that. It does seem like a very small thing, but for the cat it can be the difference between getting adopted and being killed.

85% euth rate is awful. Where I live, you can't put cats down unless they are sick or tiny kittens (ones that need to be bottle fed and pooped, because there aren't enough volunteers to take care of them). The excess cats that make it to the shelter just get spayed/neutered and put in an enclosed indoor/outdoor area where they can run around. The reason it's not too overcrowded is because you're not allowed to just take a cat there because it's annoying you. It's illegal to relocate stray cats (i.e., say "this cat is annoying me by being outside my door, so I'll call animal control or else I'll just take it in my car and dump it 5 miles from here"). It's also illegal to poison cats. Volunteers try to spay and neuter street cats; there are still a lot of street cats but the good news is we have NO rodent problems :lol:

Unfortunately, dogs do get put down because unlike cats they can be dangerous if you just let them roam the street.

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I find it incredibly sad when people say children with challenges are a waste of resources. Helping a child reach their fullest potential is never a waste. It doesn't matter if one child's fullest potential is getting into McGill or Harvard at 16 and another child's fullest potential is learning some simple and basic ways of communicating, every child deserves to be given opportunities to do the best they can in life with the hand they have been dealt in life and the gifts they have. Let's not forget that many children with 'disabilities' can go on to have fulfilling lives and while some may never be able to live independently, they enrich their family's lives beyond measure. I have an 8 year old autistic cousin who is obsessed with politics and she schooled my Mama on Pierre Trudeau the other day! She wasn't even alive when he was in office and she was born 6 years after his death and she still owned my Mama lol.

I think someone here has also forgotten the meaning of pro choice. It means supporting a woman with whatever choice they choose to make regarding their pregnancy, whether it be aborting, adopting or keeping the baby and raising it themselves. I firmly believe abortion should be legal for any reason, including fetal disabilities, but also fully support any woman who chooses to continue her pregnancy even if 'problems' are found and completely agree with the state providing whatever the child needs.

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The shelter we volunteer at had close to an 85% euth rate for cats around 10 years ago. The 15% of the cats not killed include owners whose cats got picked up and they came to claim them and rescues that take the cats, there was a very small percentage of people actually adopting cats. One of the reasons is because people would look at them, see these cats huddled over in a corner stressed and go somewhere else. Workers just don't have time to interact with the cats and a cat that is put in a strange environment, stuck in a tiny cage and not given any human interaction is quickly going turn into a cat that families aren't going to want to adopt. Having volunteers pet and play with the cats has drastically improved the adoption rate. I am not a huge cat person and when we first started volunteering at the shelter we were originally with the dogs, but when we found out about how they really needed volunteers with the cats, we went with that. It does seem like a very small thing, but for the cat it can be the difference between getting adopted and being killed.

You and your daughter sound like such wonderful people, and your daughter brings the world a lot of love, which is an unlimited resource.

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Because they are about equally capable of learning. I guess rats are considered gross and pests, so I should have used parrots instead to make the post less offensive.

I didn't want to disappoint you. We have different opinions on this issue and it's not fair for you to get disappointed because someone doesn't change her beliefs to match yours. It's reasonable to have expectations about behavior, but not about beliefs. Not only did I not use the forbidden word, but I didn't use any of the other non-forbidden words that are much more offensive than "mentally disabled".

It had nothing to do with your example being rats. Rats are actually very cool pets. I'd like to have one, but I don't think my household would be good for one with the pets I already have. It doesn't matter what animal you would have used because animals, no matter how smart, are NOT people.

I am absolutely one of *those* dog people. I have spent several children's college educations worth of vet care on my dogs over the years and do not regret it. My dogs eat human grade food that is bought at the grocery store where we buy our own food and is fed either raw or homecooked fresh nightly just like our own food. I dress my chihuahuas. To me they are little people with fur and fangs, BUT I realize they are still PROPERTY and while they have the right that all living things do to be treated humanely, at the end of the day, I OWN them. They have NO individual human rights to an education or medical care or anything else. They are PROPERTY. Do I feel that way about them or treat them that way? NO Do I understand people who don't get their pets necessary medical care and treat them as though they were disposable? No! None of that makes them HUMAN though.

A child (or adult) that is severely mentally or physically disabled is a HUMAN. Full Stop. They deserve and have the RIGHT to the same resources as EVERY OTHER HUMAN.

I appreciate that you have stopped using offensive language. I can still be disappointed that you would say something so horrible to anyone, but particularly to a member of this community of which you are a part of AND more importantly to the MOTHER of a child who has taken the time to try and explain to you something that you clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

The amount of knowledge you have that is real on this topic is somewhere in the negative numbers. People have been telling you that since this topic reared its head and you won't just shut your mouth and listen. I say this in all sincerity, you need to seek therapy about this because your views are NOT normal and you are going to have to exist in society with people who have mental disabilities. You need to come to grips with that because killing all of them is not an option (nor should it be).

Now for a little story: When I was a kid I wanted to be a special ed teacher....yeah I don't know what I was thinking either, but I volunteered in the special ed class from 6-12 grade. There was a boy in the class that would definitely not deserve to be there under your criteria. He couldn't speak, he drooled..a lot. He could also do math better than I could. He could write, including his name and numbers. He would never be able to live on his own and it's been a long time so I don't recall if he had to wear diapers or not, but he could absolutely communicate and learn. ALL the children in the class could. Maybe not the way you would deem appropriate, but in ways that made their lives and the lives of their families better and THAT is the point of education.

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I'm sorry for offending you. :(

How could you NOT have offended her when you said a RAT deserved an education more than her human child? Just think about that for a minute.

I realize you aren't a mother, but think how your mother would feel if someone told her you were no better than an animal..actually less than an animal and didn't deserve to have resources wasted on you.

You need to give your head a shake on this topic.

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Oh god, GamerHate is maddening.

There was only one thread on it that I know of, and while a few supporters popped in they didn't strike me as the rabid MRA type. I think the thread died a natural death.

I skimmed that thread and only saw one newish poster (they registered in May though so didn't register just to come talk about GamerGate). They rest of the posters in that thread were all regulars or semi-regular posters as far as I could tell. /confused

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My issue is that now advanced math will be canceled because "learning to communicate by tapping your leg to say "I'm hungry"" is being taught instead. Why can't the severely mentally disabled kids just be kept in nursery school with the babies who also get their diapers changed and get hand fed? It seems like a much better fit for everyone.

Clearly you have no clue about how children with mental disabilities are taught. I don't know why I am replying to you since you show no desire to learn anything about people who have mental disabilities, but hopefully others who are reading the thread might want to know more about the subject.

Children like my daughter are not mainstreamed into regular public school classrooms. My oldest daughter goes to one public school, my youngest to another. My oldest daughter's school does have children who have various disabilities. There is one child who is hearing impaired, so the teacher has to use a voice amplifier to make sure the child can hear what is being said. There is another child who is completely deaf and has a vision problem. This child has a sign language interpreter and(and I'm not totally clear on this since she is not in my daughter's grade level) they use some sort of device to make sure she can see everything. There are other children with processing disorders who struggle to learn the curriculum, so there is a team of people who devise an IEP(individual education plan) and work to find the ways that these children can learn. With an IEP these children can keep up with the other children, they just learn in a different way. Yes, they take more time and resources, but that is the point of public schools, to help ALL children reach their potential, not just the children who learn the curriculum easily.

My youngest daughter is not a candidate for being mainstreamed, so she goes to a separate school for children with disabilities. The classes are smaller, there are lots of on site therapists and psychologists and extra teachers who help create an IEP for each child. When I speak of communication devices, we aren't talking about tapping on legs it mostly involves I-pads and computer devices. Learning to say that she is hungry, is part of her curriculum, but also learning other things that you would typically associate with school work. When dealing with non-verbal children, it is hard to know how much they have learned unless you have first taught them a way to communicate. It ends up that these children who people think know nothing and have learned nothing and are just bodies sitting there, often know a lot and have a lot to say once you have provided them with a way to communicate. And we aren't just talking about just being able to say "I'm hungry", with communication devices these children are finally given a voice and are able to have conversations and demonstrate their knowledge. The days of sticking people with mental disabilities in a room and not even trying to teach them are over, thankfully, because it has been shown that they can be educated and they can learn. And, like I said, that is rather the point of school, to educate all children.

Honestly I feel like discussing this subject with IFTR is like discussing things with Ken, she reads what she wants to read in posts, not what is actually being written. No where did I say anything about canceling math to teach a child to tap on their leg. That was all in her head.

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There was a boy in the class that would definitely not deserve to be there under your criteria. He couldn't speak, he drooled..a lot. He could also do math better than I could. He could write, including his name and numbers. He would never be able to live on his own and it's been a long time so I don't recall if he had to wear diapers or not, but he could absolutely communicate and learn. ALL the children in the class could. Maybe not the way you would deem appropriate, but in ways that made their lives and the lives of their families better and THAT is the point of education.

There are kids in my daughter's school who can't speak, eat, go to the bathroom, and drool who can out perform kids in the typical schools when it comes to various subjects. No, they wouldn't learn it if taught in the traditional way, but once they were given a way to communicate and the teachers found a way to teach them, they excelled. I think people who don't know often think that at these schools all they do is sort of babysit the students till they turn 18, but that isn't true, at least for a good school. A good school will find how the child learns and then teach them.

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Yes, yes, silence all views that disagree with yours! Silence them! :shhh:

This isn't about silencing disagreement, it is about preventing abuse. You said you want to make the world and better place but I do NOT want to live in that world. Humans have been through this before, over and over, and it always comes out as a realization that your methods for improving the world is evil. It does not make the world better, it just makes you feel justified in your resentment. And you paint with such a broad brush that your brush sucks up everyone who you in your uneducated conclusions decides can't learn and so wastes "resources". Fuck your resources, there is no point in life if it isn't about love. Go eat your state-approved meal and stop abusing people who actually know what being alive is about.

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I keep seeing this thing about those who are a "waste of resources". Who defines that, anyway? That's subjective. For example, I could determine that self-serving glassbowls are a waste of resources, right? Who can tell me that it's wrong to do so? That's where I don't understand IFTR's logic.

One man's waste is another man's gem. So who gets to determine?

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I actually wasn't trying to be as nasty as I could have been. What you read was actually the edited version after I took some offensive stuff out. I should have edited even more. It is difficult to express my opinion on this topic without it being offensive to some people, but I could have at least made it better.

My issue is that now advanced math will be canceled because "learning to communicate by tapping your leg to say "I'm hungry"" is being taught instead. Why can't the severely mentally disabled kids just be kept in nursery school with the babies who also get their diapers changed and get hand fed? It seems like a much better fit for everyone.

I think you should read FormerGothardites post on how her daughters education actually works.

So, let's just say that the point you are trying to make is that you feel there is disproportionate funding for children with severe disabilities, and that negatively impacts the funding and opportunities for other students. Okay, that's a reasonable concern, one I don't share, but that's okay. But nobody is going to get your point, at all, because of the way you present it. People are just going to get more and more angry or hurt or dismissive of you. .

I just don't think it's fair that she gets the opportunity to do something that other kids would love to do, and then she gets praised for it. Honestly, I don't think it's fair that FormerGothardite's other daughter gets awards for it either. It's like kids who win science fairs when it's their parents who did the entire thing.I really, really don't understand why this bugs you. Schools and communities like to promote and encourage volunteerism among young people. Not only because it provides a very valuable service, but because it can become a life long habit. It also gives kids a means to develop compassion and a larger world view than just their friends and family. When kids volunteer, most of the time their parents are also going to have to put in time and effort, cause anything involving kids requires time and effort. Volunteering is often awarded, because it's something that isn't done enough....I'm sure that volunteers aren't so clamoring at the doors that the animal shelter is turning them away in droves! Most kids would rather be home playing video games, and, even more importantly, it's really hard for many kids who might want to volunteer to get their parent to put in the time and effort required to make that happen.

How is that remotely the same as doing a kids science fair project for them? By that reasoning the 8 year old who is doing a science project would have to earn his own money for glue and poster board and materials, go to the store himself to get them, be home alone with no parental guidance while he builds his example of generating electricity, and then transport his huge project on his own to school - because his parent giving him a ride would demean his effort.

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? If Formergothardite left her daughter at home, went and petted the cats herself, and then claimed her daughter did it, and accepted an award for it THAT would be similar to a parent who actually does their kids science fair project. Do you see the difference?

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I honestly don't understand why she thinks it isn't fair that my daughter gets to pet cats because other kids would want to do it. If other children want to pet the cats then their parents can put them in the car, drive to the shelter, sign a paper saying they won't steal a cat, and then let their kids pet all the cats they want. There is no shortage of cats needing to be petted. It is hardly my children's fault that other parents don't do that.

I get the idea that IFTR doesn't actually read people's posts because if she had read mine she would have seen my oldest won a citizenship award. This is for volunteering in the community. No matter what she activity she had volunteered at, I would have had to have driven her there and stayed with her. Places around here usually aren't fans of you letting children volunteer without a parent present. If they allowed that, they would have to have an employee take time away from their job to supervise the children.

I'm not going to look it up for her, but I have read the statistics on how much of the allotted school funds go to special education in my state and it is a relatively small amount. Teaching children with special needs doesn't mean that other children aren't going to get to learn advanced math. The children with mental disabilities might be very well learning advanced math. Schools are also responsible for raising funds for things the school needs.

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I honestly don't understand why she thinks it isn't fair that my daughter gets to pet cats because other kids would want to do it. If other children want to pet the cats then their parents can put them in the car, drive to the shelter, sign a paper saying they won't steal a cat, and then let their kids pet all the cats they want. There is no shortage of cats needing to be petted. It is hardly my children's fault that other parents don't do that.

I get the idea that IFTR doesn't actually read people's posts because if she had read mine she would have seen my oldest won a citizenship award. This is for volunteering in the community. No matter what she activity she had volunteered at, I would have had to have driven her there and stayed with her. Places around here usually aren't fans of you letting children volunteer without a parent present. If they allowed that, they would have to have an employee take time away from their job to supervise the children.

I'm not going to look it up for her, but I have read the statistics on how much of the allotted school funds go to special education in my state and it is a relatively small amount. Teaching children with special needs doesn't mean that other children aren't going to get to learn advanced math.

I do read your posts and everyone else's. I don't think it's fair that a child gets an award for something they needed a lot of parental help to do, because the child who would love to pet cats but whose parents won't take her doesn't get a chance. I guess I shouldn't complain about that though because nothing in life is fair. Even though I took tests alone, my mom helped me study for them, and other kids didn't get that chance. Unless we want to make all kids live on kibbutzim like they did fifty years ago, then nothing will ever be fair, but we learned from history that the true kibbutzim didn't really work because the kids grew up and decides it's worth it to risk failing and take your own chance than to artificially make everything exactly fair all the time.

Sorry again for offending you. I wish I could take it back.

Friends?

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You can actually take it back by demonstrating you have learned that children with mental disabilities deserve an education too and deserve to be treated as humans. People say stupid shit when they are ignorant about a subject like you clearly were. And the stupid shit they said in ignorance can be forgiven if they are willing to learning and growing as a person.

Don't be sorry that you offended me, be sorry that you said horrible things about mentally disabled people and treated them as not humans.

You still don't seem to grasp how awful the things you said are.

IFTR, perhaps you don't mean it this way, but "I'm sorry I offended you." is one of those non-apologize that people usually use when they don't want to apologize for the things they actually said. It is pretty meaningless to say that you are sorry you offended me if you still believe all those things about my daughter.

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I do read your posts and everyone else's. I don't think it's fair that a child gets an award for something they needed a lot of parental help to do, because the child who would love to pet cats but whose parents won't take her doesn't get a chance. I guess I shouldn't complain about that though because nothing in life is fair. Even though I took tests alone, my mom helped me study for them, and other kids didn't get that chance. Unless we want to make all kids live on kibbutzim like they did fifty years ago, then nothing will ever be fair, but we learned from history that the true kibbutzim didn't really work because the kids grew up and decides it's worth it to risk failing and take your own chance than to artificially make everything exactly fair all the time.

Sorry again for offending you. I wish I could take it back.

Friends?

Friends? Are you deranged?

You are beginning to sound like a psychopath. Even your apathy towards your hypothetical future children scares the crap out of me. I...I just.....I just seriously don't know what to say. I feel outraged by your words and sickened by your feelings toward the mentally disabled. It truly saddens me to think there exist such people who think like you.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am all for free speech. However I am also aware that I am not living in a bubble - being a part of a community (online or offline) is more productive and enjoyable through exercising self governance while interacting with others - and through empathy.

A healthy adult who claims to be functioning 'normally' should not be explained the concept of common sense and non-written rules of social interaction over and over. I think there may be a case of antisocial personality disorder here. Either that or someone who thought they have to grow a thick, intolerant, 'attack-before-being-attacked' armor after having unpleasant experiences while trying to interact with others in the past.

Either way, I feel sorry for It'sFunToRun.

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