Divorce in Liasland?

[starfish]

Free Deanna!

Hi Perry! :nenner:

[HereticHick]

One of Deanna's recent Facebook selfies was taken in a bathroom with a decorative stained glass window-- not something I would expect to see in her & Tyler's barebones apartment (judging from the pics from when she still had a blog). I bet she's moved home with the parents, and the whole family has been instructed to not mention it on social media.

[DomWackTroll]

Perry locks his FB page down every now and then, but it never lasts. He's too in love with himself to withhold his words of wisdom from the heathen. I give it ten days, tops.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I hope she doesn't end up moving back in with them, it would be so unfair to go from having your own place to sharing a room with your sisters. Especially as Deanna seems pretty cool for a fundie. I hope if she has moved back in, its just temporarily while she gets somewhere else to live.

[lilith]

Very interesting post from Perry:

Is the implication that Deanna was abused? Or simply that there are biblically acceptable reasons to divorce?

Either way it's a huge turn around from his past position on the issue.

I'd love to know what Kim thinks. Her response to Perry questioning things and becoming more liberal in some areas seems to have been to shut down her Internet presence so she doesn't have to publicly disagree with or support her headship. She isn't even posting about the latest pregnancy. I can't see her being happy with Perry moving the family in a less fundamentalist direction though, not even with the baby steps he's taking. But she'll put up and shut up like the helpmeet she's been trained to be since birth:

[ILoveJellybeans]

I hope that isn't implying that Deanna was abused :(

[lilith]

I hope that isn't implying that Deanna was abused :(

Even if they were implying it that doesn't mean I'd believe it. Just like i think they'd happily classify viewing even soft porn as adultery to justify their daughter's divorce I think they would classify normal couple fighting as "abuse" for the same reason. But I too hope Deanna wasn't hurt. She wasn't the first fundie girl to marry the first man who offered an out from Daddy's patriarchal thumb and she won't be the last.

[lilith]

New Coghlan famy photo on Kim's Facebook includes Deanna. I hope that doesn't mean she's back on a Costco shelving unit in her sister's bedroom.

The girls in jeans doesn't really surprise me, but I am surprised that one daughter was allowed to wear a tank top (with a slightly low neck) and another 2 are in short shorts. Deanna is even showing a touch of cleavage!! I have no doubt they wear those things normally but it surprises me that Kim and Perry, who used to not allow their daughters to be photographed in pants, were ok with it for a photo that Kim was planning on sharing publicly.

Doug Phillips would be truly appalled.

[DomWackTroll]

God, they make me so angry. They led so many people into a sick, cruel lifestyle and now they've just walked away from it with no explanation, no apology, no nothing. And everyone is giving them a pass. At least Doug and Beall have been shamed and (somewhat) ostracized. But not these two. Perry just laughs it off (while smoking his Scamaritan-forbidden tobacco) and Kim uses her bullshit "introvert" excuse (while nursing with a gun next to an infant's head).

And Deanna... Well, I've got plenty of thoughts about what's going on there, but I'll control myself.

[CloakNDagger]

God, they make me so angry. They led so many people into a sick, cruel lifestyle and now they've just walked away from it with no explanation, no apology, no nothing. And everyone is giving them a pass. At least Doug and Beall have been shamed and (somewhat) ostracized. But not these two. Perry just laughs it off (while smoking his Scamaritan-forbidden tobacco) and Kim uses her bullshit "introvert" excuse (while nursing with a gun next to an infant's head).

And Deanna... Well, I've got plenty of thoughts about what's going on there, but I'll control myself.

And your attitude towards them makes me angry... I guess saying too much about why I feel that way would be a little more that I want to post right now, but I really, really think you are overly judgmental on them.

[samurai_sarah]

And your attitude towards them makes me angry... I guess saying too much about why I feel that way would be a little more that I want to post right now, but I really, really think you are overly judgmental on them.

Do enlighten us about what's wrong with being annoyed that they just walked away! How is DomWackTroll overly judgemental? They've been preaching this and that for years, judged others, and now they get a free pass? Without explanation and without taking responsibility?

ETA: I mean this in an abstract way, not fishing for info. Why is it wrong to be annoyed that someone walks away from some form of extremism that has harmed others, without so much as an explanation?

[samismad]

One reason why it COULD be making a few people angry regarding people's attitude about Kim C and Perry's "walking away" is because it isn't them that would be paying if they stayed, or if they were in any way punished for it. It'd be their children, especially their older girls. They'd be not able to do anything other than get married, and if their family was being ostracised etc then that'd seriously effect their marriage prospects (especially given Deanna's divorce). So they'd all be stuck on Cosco shelving, with few connections or opportunities to choose whether or not they actually want to live their parent's lifestyle.

The other thing is that both Perry and Kim were brought up fundie with lots of siblings. Kim's the oldest of 14, Perry I believe is the oldest of 8. While I know some siblings have left the faith (Kim has posted about how such family members don't need to gospel preached to them,they need to repent, so I'd say at least 2 of Kim's siblings have left the fold in varying degrees), they certainly have a lot of fundie family connections. So they could quite easily just go back to the non public fundies that they were pre-VF. The fact that they are moving away from this (or at least that they are letting their children move away from it without removing them from the family) is a good thing.

[lilith]

And your attitude towards them makes me angry... I guess saying too much about why I feel that way would be a little more that I want to post right now, but I really, really think you are overly judgmental on them.

Why do you think DWT is being over judgemental?

Kim has made incredibly rigid and judgemental statements about many issues, including modesty, the benefits of being skirts only, the evils of divorce under ANY circumstances, the sinfulness of aborting an ectopic pregnancy even if continuing it will kill the mother, the inappropriateness of women working outside the home, the necessity of strict gender roles and patriarchy and submission....... The list goes on. She has had no problem judging others.

Now it seems that her (or more likely Perry's) views are changing. That's understandable, especially given how close they were to Dougie. But to go from enthusiastic endorsement of VF and a slew of extremist ideals to where they are now without any statement of remorse for their previous rigid judgement of others, without any explanation, simply choosing to no longer update the blog anymore, is cowardly.

[HereticHick]

Baby steps. I'd prefer to applaud change for a better in a fundy family than to just yell that it isn't enough.

These changes can be the beginning of a process. And there could be repentance in that process.

Fundies are capable of changing their views for the better, just as we all are.

[formergothardite]

And your attitude towards them makes me angry... I guess saying too much about why I feel that way would be a little more that I want to post right now, but I really, really think you are overly judgmental on them.

I don't think she is. People have talked about how Gil and Kelly Bates might be slowly moving away from Gothard, IMO, once you do things like Gil did, you don't get to walk away, wash your hands of it and pretend it never happened. Same with Perry and Deanna, you don't get to say and preach the things they did and walk away without issuing an apology and saying they were wrong. They can do it, of course, but they are shitty people if they do and they should be called out on it.

[tabitha2]

The other thing is that both Perry and Kim were brought up fundie with lots of siblings. Kim's the oldest of 14, Perry I believe is the oldest of 8. While I know some siblings have left the faith.

Not entirely correct. While Kim is the oldest of 14 they were regular fairly conservative Christians, just living in poverty with a penitent for making babies they could not afford. Perry was regular Christian as well. All the siblings are still normal Christians.

To me I really don't see any change in them. They were never exclusively skirt wearers and though she tried to make half hearted efforts it never took. FWIW, They are 'buffet' fundies.. the idea of patriarchy and the extreme anti abortion stance is what they had anyway and dug, VF gave them a platform and an excuse; the modesty, non drinking, no worldly media, books, no females working etc. bit not so much so they ignore that part.

If a Deanna gets divorced, cuts her hair and wears slightly low tops or works it they can deal but if she ever used BC or aborted they would probably throw her out.

[RosyDaisy]

CnD, put up or shut up. Stop telling us we are wrong without explaining why. You are losing credibility.

[DomWackTroll]

Baby steps. I'd prefer to applaud change for a better in a fundy family than to just yell that it isn't enough.

These changes can be the beginning of a process. And there could be repentance in that process.

Fundies are capable of changing their views for the better, just as we all are.

My problem is not their changing; of course I think that's a good thing. My problem is their absolute refusal to acknowledge their history and their hypocrisy. Years and years of blog posts "lost" in a "crash" just weeks after Doug resigns in disgrace? That's not just being quiet about it. That's LYING. That's a COVER UP. Perry needs to "look normal" now so that he can function in the real world, so all those cherished beliefs were abandoned in the blink of an eye because Google.

Well, some of us are not going to forget their dangerous teachings. And if the kids feel hurt about that, there is no one to blame except their parents. Perry and Kim need to learn some humility and apologize.

[tabitha2]

They have always looked normal...

[linnea27]

I'm not sure the Coghlans HAVE dramatically changed their views (although I may have missed some updates somewhere). They have always been on the outside fringes of the fundie world- the girls have always worn more revealing clothing, and I know Kim addressed it somewhere, saying that they usually wore skirts when "in town" (ie: church, VF headquarters) to respect *others* beliefs. I remember years ago seeing pics of a new baby and some of the girls gathered around in short-shorts. They have always listened to secular music, watched mainstream movies. I remember Kim talking about visiting one of her closest QF friends and her brood, and the boys had long hair and Avenged Sevenfold t-shirts on.

Unless I have missed something- what concrete proof do we have that their views have substantially changed? Perry is still posting similar stuff to his FB page. I don't get the sense that their views on guns, Obama, "socialism", the Bible, etc has changed. Yes Deanna is divorced, but do we know enough about that to say they have changed their views? Maybe they put her through the ringer for it. Maybe there was an "acceptable" reason such as adultery.

I don't know. I get the sense their views have only minimally softened. They just lost their VF leader with whom they didn't always agree anyway.

[DomWackTroll]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the "change" I'm referring to is in how they communicate with others, not which views they still hold privately. Sure, Perry still posts anti-Obama stuff on Facebook, but that hardly compares with the radical stuff they used to say on their blog (women must sacrifice their lives for fetuses; all birth control is sinful; women may not go to college or work outside the home; the Konfederacy for Kidz is Kool!). I have no way of knowing what they still believe or don't believe; I only know what they put out there.

So, if they have not changed their racist, sexist, Dominionist views, why not own them? And if they have changed those views, shouldn't they apologize to the many people they harmed? Peter Bradrick did, and I was the first to applaud him. Jordan Muela, who appeared in that Botkin video that was recently made available, supported Nolan and Lourdes Manteufel on his Facebook page and expressed remorse for his support of Doug Phillips. Carmon Friedrich, while offering no apology, at least had the decency to admit that she took things to a legalistic extreme. But we have seen nothing like this from the Coghlans.

I really don't care that they've "always" listened to rock music or worn jeans around the house. This about the influence they had on other, often impoverished and uneducated, families.

[Letgo]

This family, along with many others, has had their world turned upside down. They may not know what they believe now. They could be very confused and are sorting through the rubble of their former belief system. Keep in mind how very legalistic it was and that critical thinking was neither necessary nor desired. Do they even have the skills to figure out where they go after VF and DPIAT?

The whole DPIAT scandal and the collapse of his VF empire must be extremely difficult for them. And for the Coghlans, it also means loss of a job, loss of friendships, loss of a belief system, yet another new baby, a daughter being married, and then apparently divorcing. That is a huge amount of stress within the past couple of years. In addition, I have wondered if Perry might have ever been required to sign some kind of non-disclosure agreement and can't say much about Doug or VF? Just a thought.

There is also anger, betrayal, embarrassment, confusion, loss of income, change in family structure...the list goes on. Some people do not process these emotions and traumatic events as well as others. They may never be ready to "apologize" on FB or the blog. They may not even see it as necessary. After all, Perry was the warehouse manager, not on the VF board and not included in all the trips and movies. He was not one of the upper echelon of DPIAT's empire. Perhaps at some point Perry or Kim might start writing about their beliefs and the changes they have made. But then again, they may have learned a lesson about being so public about it. They aren't nearly as open or active online now as they were before VF went down. I'm interested to see if that continues.

I think it is great that some former VFers came out publically that they had seen the light, apologized, and expressed regret for their actions and legalism. I don't think all of them should be expected to do that, however. Everyone is different. The Coghlans may feel that THEY are owed an apology, not that they need to apologize. At the time, they did believe what they posted. They may still, and don't believe it is wrong or harmful. I would love to hear what they really think now, but I'm not sure that is ever going to happen.

[RosyDaisy]

Until these people apologize and admit that what that stand for is dangerous and hurtful cult and have destroyed many lives, they have nothing to say that I want to hear. I don't cut fundies of any variety any slack (except young children). They don't deserve it. Any spiritual or emotional pain they feel, they deserve. They are evil, hateful, misogynistic people. If that makes you angry CnD, the too bad.

[Georgiana]

It's sort of how I felt about the Zsu situation.

Zsu made A LOT of judgmental statements about male OB/GYNs and the women who see them. You know, how they are PERVERTS, should be banned, how only your husband should see your lady-parts, if you use a male OB/GYN you are CHEATING on your husband, etc. She really thought that no men should be allowed to be OB/GYN and sort of slut shamed women who used male OB/GYNs...even if they didn't have a choice really.

Then suddenly, the only OB/GYNs who could help her were male. Gone were the posts. Gone were the views. It was as if it never happened.

I'm not upset that she overcame her ridiculous views to get the medical care she needed, but I am upset with how she handled it. You can't pretend it never happened because it DID happen. You advised women to make dangerous medical decisions rather than see a male OB/GYN, and then when it was time to take your own advice, you found that it sucked. You owe it to the people you hurt and the people you ill advised to admit that YOU WERE WRONG.

Everyone needs to eat a little bit of humble pie every now and again. I eat mine, and I expect others to eat theirs. There's nothing wrong with me being upset if they try to get out of it. Because that just shows immaturity and a faulty character on their part.

[Letgo]

Zsu actually removed her posts about male doctors not seeing a woman's nether regions?