Apostasy = death pamphlet written by local Iman

[FoxyMoxie]

So what are you talking about then?

social privilege

(link unbroken as goes to wiki)

[shedemei]

Yeah, literally just 'does not equal'. It's not programming language as far as I know.

That would be !=, !==, or sometimes <> or ne or IS NOT EQUAL.

[It'sFunToRun]

social privilege

(link unbroken as goes to wiki)

I think my example of swat valley women not being able to up and go to college is one specific example of (lack of) social privilege. Or if a woman lives in a place where women are forbidden to drive, then someone saying "if she doesn't like walking, she should just drive to work!" would show lack of awareness.

[It'sFunToRun]

That would be !=, !==, or sometimes <> or ne or IS NOT EQUAL.

I've used all of those except <> and ne. The only one I am comfortable using is !=.

[It'sFunToRun]

I've used all of those except <> and ne. The only one I am comfortable using is !=.

Just remembered that I used ne sometime when I was taking my NAND course. That was some primitive ***!

[feministing]

Turkey is the exception rather than the norm, whereas fundies such as the Ultra-Orthodox Jews are the exception rather than the born. I think that speaks volumes.

[Arete]

Turkey is the exception rather than the norm, whereas fundies such as the Ultra-Orthodox Jews are the exception rather than the born. I think that speaks volumes.

No. Christian, Jewish, and Islamic fundementalism all have their origin in the same place: it is a reaction against modernity. None if them as practiced in the 21st century would be recognizable to coreligionists in the 14th century. Christians never practiced "courtship", Jews did not have every last man studying Torah all day every day and not earning a living. Muslims were not anti secular learning. These are new and modern interpretations. You perceive that every Muslim is supposedly a fanatic because fanatics get attention. You only need a few, just a few fanatics willing to kill and maim to get an otherwise "normal" population in line. When people by the millions threw the Shah out of Iran, it wasn't because the dearest wish of most of those millions of people was to establish an Islamic theocracy under Khomeni. The reform movement was hijacked by the fanatics willing to kill to solidify a new power base, That is what makes fundementalism dangerous. You don't need a lot of them, you only need a few with a will to power.

[feministing]

No. Christian, Jewish, and Islamic fundementalism all have their origin in the same place: it is a reaction against modernity. None if them as practiced in the 21st century would be recognizable to coreligionists in the 14th century. Christians never practiced "courtship", Jews did not have every last man studying Torah all day every day and not earning a living. Muslims were not anti secular learning. These are new and modern interpretations. You perceive that every Muslim is supposedly a fanatic because fanatics get attention. You only need a few, just a few fanatics willing to kill and maim to get an otherwise "normal" population in line. When people by the millions threw the Shah out of Iran, it wasn't because the dearest wish of most of those millions of people was to establish an Islamic theocracy under Khomeni. The reform movement was hijacked by the fanatics willing to kill to solidify a new power base, That is what makes fundementalism dangerous. You don't need a lot of them, you only need a few with a will to power.

Hey, I never said all Muslims were extremist, nor did I say that all fundamentalism isn't bad.

But I do agree that in general, Islamic fundamentalism makes up a larger portion of Muslims than Christian fundamentalism does of Christians. Or, in general, the average Muslim is far more fundie than the average Christian or Jew.

I understand that this could be attributed to lack of education, but even many educated Muslims I know still hold some pretty fundie beliefs, if you compare with the educated Jews or Christians I tend to know. Not saying no educated Jews or Christians have crazy fundie beliefs, but Islam to me seems to be more seriously followed than any other religion I've encountered.

[bumblebee]

Chiming in on the Turkey discussion. I lived in Istanbul for 6 months and generally had a great time (its a fantastic city everyone should visit) and its interesting because one section of people I met were very proud of the "western" style of revolutions they've had, most especially of the switch to the roman alphabet, but there were a few other groups who were trying to make it difficult to be anything other than a muslim woman in head scarf. I routinely visit big places of worship and I'm conscious of being suitably attired, but I did resent women being yelled at if they didn't have a head scarf on at the Blue Mosque, not just asked to do so. I also found, not totally unsurprisingly that the further east you went in Turkey the more female constraints there were. Our guide in those places, the daughter and granddaughter of Islamic Judges "defiantly" in her words did not cover up an wore short tops but said wearing the hijab was becoming an increasingly political religious issue,

I've worshiped at the Anglican Church (Christ Church ) and whilst they are incredibly sanguine about world events, they are concerned about what happens next.

I don't have an issue saying that whilst religious extremism on its own and doubly worse as a political movement is terrible, but that compared to the middle east (and getting wider) American Christian fundamentalists and their reach is minimal compared to some Islamic funementalist sects dominating the news.

[ILikePie]

Hey, I never said all Muslims were extremist, nor did I say that all fundamentalism isn't bad.

But I do agree that in general, Islamic fundamentalism makes up a larger portion of Muslims than Christian fundamentalism does of Christians. Or, in general, the average Muslim is far more fundie than the average Christian or Jew.

I understand that this could be attributed to lack of education, but even many educated Muslims I know still hold some pretty fundie beliefs, if you compare with the educated Jews or Christians I tend to know. Not saying no educated Jews or Christians have crazy fundie beliefs, but Islam to me seems to be more seriously followed than any other religion I've encountered.

I think you misunderstood what the original poster said. I saw nothing in the post to suggest that s/he believes there are more Muslim fundies (in relation to the total number of Muslims) than there are fundy Christians or Jews. What do you mean by "pretty fundy beliefs"? Do you mean a literal interpretation of the Koran, more conservative dress, etc.?

Many educated Christians also hold fundy beliefs. As of this year, 42% of Americans believe God created humans in their present form less than 10,000 years ago. Of college graduates, 27% believe in Young Earth creationism while 49% of people with some college hold creationist beliefs. Given that Muslims are .8% of the US population, I'm sure most of the creationists are Christian.

[Rachel333]

I know these comparisons are inevitable and I'm not criticizing anyone here, but I also wonder just how necessary it is to compare Islam to Christianity. Surely Islamic fundamentalism is bad enough on its own without saying it's worse than Christianity, and pointing out that Christianity has its fundamentalists too doesn't make Islamic fundamentalism any better.

I think if one is discussing privilege and Christianity, it might be relevant that it seems like you can't even discuss another religion without Christianity dominating the discussion. We can talk about Christian fundies without talking about how Muslims are better or worse, so why can't we do the reverse?

Again, not trying to criticize anyone, because sometimes these comparisons are relevant, or act as if I don't do this too (and actually, maybe I'm just talking about myself anyway), but this thread has got me thinking.

[Mama Mia]

I know these comparisons are inevitable and I'm not criticizing anyone here, but I also wonder just how necessary it is to compare Islam to Christianity. Surely Islamic fundamentalism is bad enough on its own without saying it's worse than Christianity, and pointing out that Christianity has its fundamentalists too doesn't make Islamic fundamentalism any better.

I think if one is discussing privilege and Christianity, it might be relevant that it seems like you can't even discuss another religion without Christianity dominating the discussion. We can talk about Christian fundies without talking about how Muslims are better or worse, so why can't we do the reverse?

Again, not trying to criticize anyone, because sometimes these comparisons are relevant, or act as if I don't do this too (and actually, maybe I'm just talking about myself anyway), but this thread has got me thinking.

I agree. The original post was about a specific, real threat put out by someone who is local to the poster - and therefore that form of religious extremism is Extremely relevant to her life. But because the pamphlet was discussing Islamic fundamentalism people feel the need to fall all over themselves to say how most Muslims aren't like that and Christians are just as bad. Which was absolutely not the issue at all. If you can't discuss something horrific a specific group of people is promoting without a thousand qualifying statements and changing the topic completely --- how is that any less " othering" and dehumanizing that the rabid Anti- Muslim rhetoric you see spewed across the Internet.

Eta: not that I don't think this particular discussion has been really interesting and informative-- but basically none if it has been about the actual post- and not due to normal thread drift.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think if one is discussing privilege and Christianity, it might be relevant that it seems like you can't even discuss another religion without Christianity dominating the discussion. We can talk about Christian fundies without talking about how Muslims are better or worse, so why can't we do the reverse?

I agree. I've heard this very complaint from Muslim feminists and progressives. Many have been inspired by those who fights for their rights in the West and speak out against Christian-based patriarchy, but are then disappointed when their voices are shot down as they speak out against the oppressions that they are fighting.

It seems to go something like this: Western feminists/progressives identify Christian fundamentalism as their main concern. Muslim progressives and feminists are inspired, they do similar criticism and activism with their fundamentalists. Christian and/or right-wingers critisize Islam. Western feminists/progressives worry that their Muslim counterparts sound too much like the Christian and/or right-wingers that they oppose, so they don't support them. Muslim feminists/progressives end up drifting to the right, despite the fact that their hearts were on the left, simply because there was no room for their voices. This is a scenario of privilege for those from a Christian-dominated background, because THEIR oppression is deemed more important.

[Arete]

I don't think it necessarily comes from a place of Christian background feminists thinking their oppression is more important. I think it comes from a tendency of what I think of as the "exoticism of the other" that goes on within a lot of the a Western Left. They seem to be incapable of seeing misogyny, antidemocratic tendencies, homophobia in non western cultures as things that evolved independently in those cultures without any Western help. Those cultures would somehow be perfect if there had never been Western contact, and they will revert back to a state of perfection just as soon as we a Westerners solve those problems in our cultures. Which is as condescending and infantilizing as you can get, but it seems to be lost on a lot of progressives. Therefore no need for the, let's say Iranian feminist to address problems in Iranian culture that allow misogyny. Iranian culture is perfect, and that misogyny is obviously some byproduct of contact with an imperfect, imperialist Western culture.

There is no recognition that other cultures have internal influences that get them in the same shit places the West gets to (see above) and that they must be addressed in a culturally specific manner. The problems aren't solved in one place because they are solved in another. No culture is static or should remain that way and dammit, it isn't always about the sins of the a West or Christianity, as extensive as they are. Stop condescending to non-Western feminist trying to address problems in ways that are specific to their culture. They are trying to bounce ideas off peers. They know you are bullshitting them when you act as if the problems and solutions are not culture specific.

[2xx1xy1JD]

UPDATE: This same mosque and Islamic center up the street also runs a madressa. There was a leaked video of kindergarten students re-enacting beheadings.

ETA: screen shot from the video:

http://pullzone1.atlas.netdna-cdn.com/w ... .04-AM.png

[shedemei]

I googled this, and look what the first result was. It's a guillotine stock photo. Someone's SEO is a little too good.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-Behead ... 95198.html

Edit: I was specifically joking about the idiocy of this search result, separate from the rest of the discussion. Please scroll down to my later post for my actual comments on the beheading play.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I googled this, and look what the first result was. It's a guillotine stock photo. Someone's SEO is a little too good.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-Behead ... 95198.html

That's a completely different photo from the link that I posted.

Here is a link to more of the video and some commentary from Tarek Fatah:

www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/clash-of-cu ... 4308135001

To be clear - this mosque is not ISIS, its Shia and therefore a target of ISIS. The kids are acting out a historical re-enactment.

[It'sFunToRun]

That's a completely different photo from the link that I posted.

I don't see how anyone could confuse the two :lol:

[shedemei]

UPDATE: This same mosque and Islamic center up the street also runs a madressa. There was a leaked video of kindergarten students re-enacting beheadings.

ETA: screen shot from the video:

http://pullzone1.atlas.netdna-cdn.com/w ... .04-AM.png

Here's the video that is at the root of this story.

http://pamelageller.com/2014/09/video-t ... ideo.html/

The play happened two years ago, and it is actually about the execution of an important Shia imam and his family at the battle of Karbala. The play was likely put on as part of Ashura, a Shiite day of mourning (a bit like Tisha b'Av). There's a discussion in the video with a rational person about how the desensitization to tragedy and promotion of martyrdom is this story is terrible, but not likely about current events.

I'm not trying to gloss this over; it irritates me no end that Islam tends to get a free pass and defense from my fellow liberals whenever problems are pointed out. I believe that it's problematic because it does extol martyrdom.

That said, don't tons of religions have reenacted stories with violence like this? There's Christian passion plays, for example, which depict the crucifixion of Jesus. You can find Haman effigies hanging in the streets of NYC on Purim, or bloody Jesus on the cross on the walls of many churches and homes.

[shedemei]

That's a completely different photo from the link that I posted.

Yes. I should have put a smilie in my post, since I was just making a joke specifically about the idiocy that led to that being a search result.

You edited this right after I quoted it to point out that the play is a historical re-enactment. Did you know that when you made your first post?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I had the screen shot with the first post, then I found the longer Sun News video with the comments from Tarek Fatah. [i've been reading and listening to Mr. Fatah for a long time, and trust his take on things.]

[DGayle]

As extreme as fundamentalist Christians are, none of them are as bad as fundamentalist Muslims.

PP would gladly see people killed for being gay, disrespecting parents, etc., and it's only our laws against murder that keeps fundies from looking as bad. I really think that, if people like PP got their way, that most of us would be killed for various biblical infractions.

[DGayle]

I don't think all Muslims are like the Taliban. I'm glad Muslims exist and have weird (to me) practices like making girls and women wear headscarves (as long as they aren't harmed if they choose not to) and praying five times a day. It makes the world a more interesting place.

I do think that "normal" Muslims are already a lot less secular than "normal" Christians, and that "normal" Muslims more comparable to the Duggars than they are to Methodists or UU or even (non Fundamentalist) Baptists. I don't think the Duggars are bad people even though I disagree with them politically on abortion and gay rights. Unlike Christianity or Judaism, I don't think you'll find major branches of Islam that support gay rights, say women don't have to wear a headscarf, wouldn't shame women for pre-marital sex, etc.

I don't think that the "normal" Muslims are the ones forcing the burka and throwing acid, so I should have made that clear, but I think "normal" Muslims are already "fundamentalist" by the standards we hold Christians to.

Oh. My. God. I've known many Muslims, and not a single one is like you think they're all like. The Muslims I've known have all been fine with other people having rights in the US and other places, including to abortion and marriage equality. Where bets are off is if you choose to go to a country with laws requiring coverings or banning certain actions. But in the US? You can do what you want. Muslims aren't trying to position themselves in government to start mandated Islamic prayers and head-coverings for women. Christian fundies, OTOH, ARE trying to position themselves in a way to FORCE their practices onto all people. Aside from the UU, there aren't really any branches of Christianity that openly accept gays. At best, it's "homosexuality is bad, but still love that sinner anyway."

Also good to know that practices that are "weird" because you don't participate are good for your entertainment.

[Mama Mia]

Aside from the UU, there aren't really any branches of Christianity that openly accept gays. At best, it's "homosexuality is bad, but still love that sinner anyway."

Off topic, but that isn't true, at all.

Some huge denominations - including the Episcopalians, Presbreterians, United Church of Christ, Unity Churches and Lutherans all are listed as LGBT welcoming. NOT " love the sinner but hate the sin". There are also smaller groups that have splintered off from many other denominations in support. As well as individual congregations and parishes that are actively supportive despite a negative policy higher in the hierarchy.

Here is the Wikipedia article. I'm sure it varies in practice greatly by area, and individual church.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-aff ... ominations

[RosyDaisy]

My comment wasn't aimed at any of your observations in this thread, nausicaa. Just a general trend I sense on this board that we must avoid other than Christian snark because some people think all Muslims uniformly behave in one way. I don't particularly care that the troll is trolling, that is what she does to get attention, and Islam is just her vehicle on this thread.

I think most people on this board can make the distinction between the practice of Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. I don't see why the existence of the ones that can't have to shut down discussion. It not only gives them way more power than is warranted, it actually reinforces their dumbass assumptions. Religious and political fundementalists are a worldwide problem, and it is not wrong or racist if the discussion of one kind occasionally spins off into a discussion of another kind. Your observations alone about your experience in an actual majority Muslim country among actual people practicing Islam is enough to make the troll's talking points about all Muslims being one way laughable. Discussion is a great disinfectant.

This! If a belief systems and political groups are as hurtful as fundamentalist Christianity and certain political groups in the U.S., then they are fair game. They do not get a free pass from me. Count me as one of those who knows that all Muslims are not fundamentalist and terrorists.