Priscilla's Satan Eyes/Wedding and God MERGED

[louisa05]

See it would be different if Pris was from a denomination that views marriage as a sacrament - traditionally it's God who marries you and not the priest, hence no divorce. But this just smacks of yet another way to make women feel guilty over enjoying something.

Actually, in the Catholic Church, the couple marries each other. God does not marry them. The couple gives the sacrament to each other through their vows. Not the priest and not God. The graces within the sacrament come from God.

From the Catechism:

According to Latin tradition, the spouses as ministers of Christ's grace mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church.

Our priest emphasized this to us when a relative of mine was attempting to dictate the terms of our wedding, telling us that in conferring a sacrament on each other, the wedding was indeed about us.

[FoxyMoxie]

Actually, in the Catholic Church, the couple marries each other. God does not marry them. The couple gives the sacrament to each other through their vows. Not the priest and not God. The graces within the sacrament come from God.

From the Catechism:

Our priest emphasized this to us when a relative of mine was attempting to dictate the terms of our wedding, telling us that in conferring a sacrament on each other, the wedding was indeed about us.

Oops, sorry - I knew it wasn't the priest at least. However the RCC isn't the only church where marriage is a sacrament, though I'm not sure how it works in Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches re being married by the priest or not.

[louisa05]

Oops, sorry - I knew it wasn't the priest at least. However the RCC isn't the only church where marriage is a sacrament, though I'm not sure how it works in Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches re being married by the priest or not.

It is all a bit confusing as a valid Catholic marriage (in the Latin Rite) is required to take place in the church and legal requirements in the U.S. mean that the priest is a legal "officiant" of the marriage and signs the license as such. However, it is sacramentally acceptable for a deacon to officiate a Catholic wedding. (Our joke was that if our parents had not paid, we would have ended up having a friend who is a deacon marry us on the steps of an abandoned church due to my husband's workplace burning down shortly after our engagement--our parents paid for it all because of that when we had originally planned to foot part of the bill ourselves).

[Snarkle]

In Germany couples marry in front of the government official in their area (legal marriage), then many in the church (religious marriage). I would imagine it is like this in other European countries as well. My friend from there had a whole album of the government (official) wedding and another album with the church (Lutheran) wedding.

And I had just watched that video on Pecan Thief's site when I saw the Raw Story link here. Priscilla looks brainwashed in the eyes in a lot of this, and it seems like Anna is coaching her and translating her thoughts half the time. I was trying to reconcile Pris' story to their courtship story on their website and they seemed to match pretty close (with Anna adding in parts here and there). And normally I would say "Don't read the comments" on a post, but the ones on the Raw Story one sound like they could have been written by Free Jinger-ites.

And who is the guy who walks around behind them and opens the door and throws something into the room? Is this a house or what?

What always bothers me about Pris is in her testimony on their blog she says that after David entered into a courtship with her, she "cried out to the Lord as I headed back to the lodge: “Lord, I know that love is not an emotion! Please show me what you are doing.â€" and then she says, "True, sincere love is not an emotion, but it is laying down your life. I needed to lay down my life, my plans, my future, my all so that together, we could go farther for God." So does this mean she never felt love as most of us would define it? Did she see marrying David as just the hand that she'd been dealt, and whether she was "in love" as an emotion or not was not part of the equation at all? Inquiring minds want to know. It would certainly explain how she admires David for his commitment to his mission, but it seems like he's not always so committed to her...

[16strong]

Well, if it's all about God, why even bother attending? Or for that matter, planning any decorations beyond what is in the church for every other day. Let God stand at the altar of the Holy House while everyone else(including the bride and groom in street clothes) sits in the pews and stares straight ahead. Nothing special today, nobody singled out over anyone else, because it's allllll about God.

[docmom]

So god's a wedding planner. That explains why so little divine intervention is taking place for the Ebola epidemic. God's busy fixing the canapes and finding the right brand of grape juice.

[salex]

It is amazing how the fundie description of love and marriage sucks all the joy and fun and happiness out of it.

[louisa05]

In Germany couples marry in front of the government official in their area (legal marriage), then many in the church (religious marriage). I would imagine it is like this in other European countries as well. My friend from there had a whole album of the government (official) wedding and another album with the church (Lutheran) wedding.

I actually think that is what should happen in the U.S. Civil marriage needs to be separated from religious ceremonies.

I say that having very intentionally chosen to marry in a church. But I would not have resented a separate legal ceremony in the least bit.

[DGayle]

In Germany couples marry in front of the government official in their area (legal marriage), then many in the church (religious marriage). I would imagine it is like this in other European countries as well. My friend from there had a whole album of the government (official) wedding and another album with the church (Lutheran) wedding.

And I had just watched that video on Pecan Thief's site when I saw the Raw Story link here. Priscilla looks brainwashed in the eyes in a lot of this, and it seems like Anna is coaching her and translating her thoughts half the time. I was trying to reconcile Pris' story to their courtship story on their website and they seemed to match pretty close (with Anna adding in parts here and there). And normally I would say "Don't read the comments" on a post, but the ones on the Raw Story one sound like they could have been written by Free Jinger-ites.

And who is the guy who walks around behind them and opens the door and throws something into the room? Is this a house or what?

What always bothers me about Pris is in her testimony on their blog she says that after David entered into a courtship with her, she "cried out to the Lord as I headed back to the lodge: “Lord, I know that love is not an emotion! Please show me what you are doing.â€" and then she says, "True, sincere love is not an emotion, but it is laying down your life. I needed to lay down my life, my plans, my future, my all so that together, we could go farther for God." So does this mean she never felt love as most of us would define it? Did she see marrying David as just the hand that she'd been dealt, and whether she was "in love" as an emotion or not was not part of the equation at all? Inquiring minds want to know. It would certainly explain how she admires David for his commitment to his mission, but it seems like he's not always so committed to her...

A lot of people see liking someone as the emotion, and love being an action. I'm not going to show mu husband some like, but I will show him some love. You don't give your spouse some likin'. You give your spouse some lovin'. So love is what you do, and it's often tied to an emotion of very strong liking of someone. Most of us would die for those we say we love, but not for those we merely like. So it's liking on a much more intense level, and you show your love.

I don't know if Pris has felt love, or if she's always been told it's a bad thing, and so has pulled back, but it's possible she has, and calls it something different.

[DGayle]

I actually think that is what should happen in the U.S. Civil marriage needs to be separated from religious ceremonies.

I say that having very intentionally chosen to marry in a church. But I would not have resented a separate legal ceremony in the least bit.

My most homophobic of homophobe friends has come around to this, and now thinks all references to sex and gender should be removed, and people get married how they want, and then register their marriages or unions or whatever they choose to call it with the government for the record of it. We finally agree on this. If you want to have you personal ceremony in a church, go ahead. If you want it to be just the couple and someone standing by to make sure it's signed without coercion, fine (this is supposed to be the point of witnesses, to make sure it's willing and happened). However you want. Wherever you want. Then file the license as registration, and off you go.

[DGayle]

“I kept seeing the star of David everywhere, and I’m thinking, ‘Oh boy, Priscilla has her star of David,’†Duggar said.

Wow. I get the feeling this is offensive to a lot of Jewish people, for their religious symbol to be called a symbol from a Christian god.

This whole article is sad and shows how brainwashed they are and how much they think they have to give control of their lives to others.

Also I'm going to say it. Anna looks frumpy and far older than her age.

[Hane]

I actually think that is what should happen in the U.S. Civil marriage needs to be separated from religious ceremonies.

I say that having very intentionally chosen to marry in a church. But I would not have resented a separate legal ceremony in the least bit.

Sort of related to this: My second husband and I had both been married and divorced by the time we got engaged. I had gotten a church annulment years before, but his was in the works. My priest encouraged us to get married in a civil ceremony, as a signal to the archdiocese of the seriousness of our commitment. He told us that we'd be following the precedent of a civil marriage ceremony followed by a religious one, as is done in many other countries. (Said priest was our local Dean of Vicars and an expert in Roman Catholic canon law.) So we had a civil ceremony, conducted by a female JP (yay!) at the UU church. Several months after the civil ceremony, we had a Catholic one at the rectory. The priest began the ceremony by stating that the Church has a long history of recognizing unions entered into in good faith. The vows went, "[Name], you are my husband/wife," not "I take you as my husband/wife." I didn't expect that, and darn near fell over.

(Given the disaster said marriage was, I wish I hadn't jumped through all the ecclesiastical hoops.)

ETA: I was proud of my daughter when, in planning her wedding, she said, "This day isn't all about us--it's about our family and friends. And the wedding isn't the most important part--it's the marriage."

I feel for fundie gals: On what is supposed to be the most (only) important day of their lives, they are publicly presented as second-class citizens.

[feministxtian]

ETA: I was proud of my daughter when, in planning her wedding, she said, "This day isn't all about us--it's about our family and friends. And the wedding isn't the most important part--it's the marriage."

Your daughter is a wise young woman! My wedding to Mr. Xtian was a quickie JOP affair. We're coming up on 16 years.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

So are funerals in fundieland. It bothers me so much to go to funerals where people are not allowed to grieve because they have to save face and show how happy they are that there loved one is now in heaven. Okay, maybe I did feel that way when my Granny passed away- relief that her suffering was over and that she was on the other side with loved ones. But when I went to a service where my cousin buried her 4 year old child- no, I could not say that was "joyous day" as the pastor said.

My pastor growing up would say that you never want to be spiritually constipated- well I think most fundie's are spiritually and emotionally constipated. And every once in a while we see all that crap come out and hit the fan.......

[Snarkle]

Wow. I get the feeling this is offensive to a lot of Jewish people, for their religious symbol to be called a symbol from a Christian god.

This whole article is sad and shows how brainwashed they are and how much they think they have to give control of their lives to others.

Also I'm going to say it. Anna looks frumpy and far older than her age.

I was not raised Jewish, but my husband was, so I tend to be pretty aware of this sort of stuff. I find it really offensive when fundies appropriate the Star of David and make it seem like it's some sort of tie for them to the Jewish faith. Normally I would find Anna's observation sort of clever for her to link David's name to things seen on their travels, but not when it concerns a symbol of the Jewish faith - one that was used to mark people as Jews during the Holocaust (maybe you could mention that to your SIL Jessa, eh, Anna?). I admit I do not like it when fundies wear Stars of David jewelry - I'm sure they feel there's a connection symbolically, but I just find it wrong, especially since they reject so much of the Old Testament. If they're trying to show solidarity with their Jewish brethren, there's a lot better ways. I bet they'd be the first to cry foul if non-Christians suddenly started wearing crosses that weren't "holy" enough.

[uber frau]

I was not raised Jewish, but my husband was, so I tend to be pretty aware of this sort of stuff. I find it really offensive when fundies appropriate the Star of David and make it seem like it's some sort of tie for them to the Jewish faith. Normally I would find Anna's observation sort of clever for her to link David's name to things seen on their travels, but not when it concerns a symbol of the Jewish faith - one that was used to mark people as Jews during the Holocaust (maybe you could mention that to your SIL Jessa, eh, Anna?). I admit I do not like it when fundies wear Stars of David jewelry - I'm sure they feel there's a connection symbolically, but I just find it wrong, especially since they reject so much of the Old Testament. If they're trying to show solidarity with their Jewish brethren, there's a lot better ways. I bet they'd be the first to cry foul if non-Christians suddenly started wearing crosses that weren't "holy" enough.

I'm not bit Jewish and my knowledge of Judaism is limited, to say the least.

Even I know that it's as offensive as Fuck.

[nokidsmom]

I actually think that is what should happen in the U.S. Civil marriage needs to be separated from religious ceremonies.

I say that having very intentionally chosen to marry in a church. But I would not have resented a separate legal ceremony in the least bit.

This has become my view as well and I got married in a church.

Incidentally, my sister did get married in a legal ceremony separate from the church ceremony. However, it was performed by the pastor who was officiating at their church wedding two weeks later. He performed the ceremony and sent in the paperwork. They did it because BIL was going out of town for job training right after the church wedding and they needed to present verification of their marriage to immigration before he left.

[Georgiana]

This has become my view as well and I got married in a church.

Incidentally, my sister did get married in a legal ceremony separate from the church ceremony. However, it was performed by the pastor who was officiating at their church wedding two weeks later. He performed the ceremony and sent in the paperwork. They did it because BIL was going out of town for job training right after the church wedding and they needed to present verification of their marriage to immigration before he left.

In my State you need to have your marriage license processed before you have the ceremony, so all couples are legally married before ceremony(religious or not) takes place.

I mean, I suppose you could get it after too or have the ceremony without being legally married, but for all legal purposes that becomes just a party and not a wedding.

Anyways, point is, where I live in the US, the legal marriage is separate from any ceremony.

[It'sFunToRun]

I'm a very jewish Jew and I don't find it offensive at all when the duggars wear the star of david. The disadvantage is that it might be slightly annoying or confusing for a Jew to mistake a christian for a Jew, but that would get cleared up pretty fast. The advantage is that I feel it shows solidarity with jews/Israel and Christians wearing the star would make it less dangerous for Jews wearing the star in antisemitic places.

[louisa05]

In my State you need to have your marriage license processed before you have the ceremony, so all couples are legally married before ceremony(religious or not) takes place.

I mean, I suppose you could get it after too or have the ceremony without being legally married, but for all legal purposes that becomes just a party and not a wedding.

Anyways, point is, where I live in the US, the legal marriage is separate from any ceremony.

In most states, you are required to apply for a marriage license before the wedding ceremony and you provide the information and sign it, but it is not legally recognized until it is signed by a legal officiant (and clergy are legal officiants among others) and one or two witnesses to verify that vows took place then filed with the county clerk where it was obtained. That ceremony can be anything from simple vows at the courthouse to a church wedding. If you do not do the rest within a certain time frame of obtaining the license, you are not legally married.

[Snarkle]

In most states, you are required to apply for a marriage license before the wedding ceremony and you provide the information and sign it, but it is not legally recognized until it is signed by a legal officiant (and clergy are legal officiants among others) and one or two witnesses to verify that vows took place then filed with the county clerk where it was obtained. That ceremony can be anything from simple vows at the courthouse to a church wedding. If you do not do the rest within a certain time frame of obtaining the license, you are not legally married.

Yes - this! You need a license to make the marriage legal (and waiting period and requirements to obtain said license varies from state to state), but it's not good until the witnesses sign it and it's submitted, usually by the person performing the ceremony (clergy member, justice of the peace, judge, etc.) or by the couple themselves. In fact in Massachusetts anyone can get a one day marriage designation, meaning anyone (friend, family, etc.) can be the one to perform and solemnize the ceremony, but it's only good for one specific day and town, and you have to get another certificate if either of those stipulations change. My BIL and his ex-wife were married by a friend of theirs who got the designation in Salem, MA 20 years ago. After the ceremony, the license is submitted back to where it was issued in and the official license will be mailed back to the couple (after being registered) within 60 days. I was married in Wisconsin and the reverend officiating at our wedding gave us a temporary signed license to tide us over until our real license came in the mail (sort of like a temporary driver's license until the real one is sent to you). We still have both licenses.

So you may have a marriage ceremony, and you may have a license, but unless you get the license, have someone perform some sort of ceremony and sign it, and submit it to the licensing authority, you don't have a legal marriage.