Courtships based on looks?

[BriarRose1122]

Let me start with a quick story.

I met a guy thru work and although nice, he just wasn't my type... he was not bad looking or anything, but just not my type, no attraction there.

But he was attracted to me, and I could tell he was (not trying to sound egotistical, it's just I could tell he was.)

Anyway he really liked me , and so he talked to me a lot and hung around me a lot, eventually he asked if we could go out to eat.

I was like well I'm sorry but I'm not interested...and he says "could we just be friends" and I was like "yeah actually let's be friends", because he was really nice, he was fun to talk to, he always had me laughing, and I could tell he was just a really good person and we did have a lot in common.

So was happy to be friends with him, as long as he knew it wasn't anything more than that.

We would go out to dinner, concerts, hang out with each other etc.

He just called me a friend and never attempted to make it like a date or romantic or anything.

Well after about two years of being friends...I realized I had quietly fallen in love with this guy. Initially I wasn't attracted to him at all (again, not bad looking...just not my type) but after getting to know him and being friends for two years....at some point I woke up and realized "woah, this is the guy for me" and I slowly began to feel attracted to him physically even though he isn't my type, I had become attracted to him because I had already fallen in love with the person he was.

End background. Thanks for bearing with me.

So fundies, are not allowed to be friends or be one-on-one with the opposite sex.

So they do not have the option of becoming friends with a man and slowly falling for him over time as they get to know him like I did.

They meet briefly or they just see each other from afar, at like let's say a homeschooling conference.

If they are attracted to the person they see, then they tell their parents that god led them to want to meet that person.

Then the have to get to know the person while under supervision so they may not be getting the true picture of that person's mind.

So once they marry and are alone together, the person may act totally different.

Primarily the way they got introduced to this person is because they found them physically attractive.

Doesn't that seem shallow and superficial? I know they want to say that god led them to this person but....it seems like fundie courtships just start because of physical attraction and the getting to know each other doesn't really happen til after marriage.

Do you think fundie marriages are based on physical attraction, at least primarily?

[Coco]

Yes! It's all about outward appearances and outward behavior, but sometimes it's not what worldly people would consider. One guy bragged to my BIL that he picked his wife out of her sisters (since that was the family he decided to marry into) because she looked like the best cook -- she wasn't the tiniest sister. Another guy picked his wife because she was quiet and shy and didn't care about being stylish. To him stylish was a red flag. The really hilarious thing is that the non-stylish girl had some very stylish sisters, and in the years since they married they left the fundie church. She's been posting a lot of 4 inch heels on Pinterest. :lol: So it just proves that outward behavior and appearance change too much over time for guys to trust that as a judge, but it's how it's done. :roll:

[kpmom]

Of the courtships with which I am familiar, primarily the Maxwells and Duggars, but some others too, God always, conveniently leads the males to very pretty women.

Men in fundieland have a very large group to choose from (although, I'm sure they'd swear it was God telling them who to court). There are, sadly, many stay-at-home daughters waiting and hoping, and growing older.

You are so right about fundies knowing exactly what to say and how to come across while courting. It worries me how vulnerable young fundie women are going into marriage.

When Joseph Maxwell was courting he'd met his fiance' face-to-face a total of 4 times. Everything else, including wedding planning was over skype, with lots of family members listening in.

Thankfully, his fiance' ended it a week before the wedding.

O.k., now that you told us some of your story, you can't leave us hanging. Are you and co-worker together now?

[Georgiana]

I also get the feeling there is a lot of "OK, I am ready to marry/have sex now. Who is available/seems interested/I can reasonably pursue?" I think a lot of fundies settle on the first person that they find somewhat attractive and seems to sort of reciprocate their emotion. Like Josh/Zach. Met a decent* looking girl at the snack bar/Sonic. She seems receptive to the attention. Ok, better go after this one.

*Whit is cute, but early days Anna was soooo awkward.

[ThisOlGirl]

O.k., now that you told us some of your story, you can't leave us hanging. Are you and co-worker together now?

Yeah!

[BriarRose1122]

Ok I'll talk! Though there's not much to tell. I realized I was actually truly in love with my friend literally the same night he left the country to visit his family overseas for the summer. He won't be back for another month ...we have been emailing each other long detailed emails 3, 4, 5 times A DAY lol..but I don't want to tell him this thru our emails, I'd rather wait til I meet him at the airport when he's coming back.

[Firiel]

Cute! You have to update us all when he comes back! :)

[kpmom]

Ok I'll talk! Though there's not much to tell. I realized I was actually truly in love with my friend literally the same night he left the country to visit his family overseas for the summer. He won't be back for another month ...we have been emailing each other long detailed emails 3, 4, 5 times A DAY lol..but I don't want to tell him this thru our emails, I'd rather wait til I meet him at the airport when he's coming back.

Rats! Now I won't know the rest of the story for a whole month! :angry-tappingfoot:

[Jinger_Cat]

When Joseph Maxwell was courting he'd met his fiance' face-to-face a total of 4 times. Everything else, including wedding planning was over skype, with lots of family members listening in.

Thankfully, his fiance' ended it a week before the wedding.

Woah. :shock: I've somehow missed this. Could someone point me toward more information? Thanks.

[It'sFunToRun]

I don't think Fundy style courting is a good idea, but I don't think it's fair to say that looks are the primary interest. Jill had a four page questioneer that Derrick had to pass before she started sky ping with him, so I'd say that having similar beliefs and goals is their #1 priority.

That's a good start, but I briefly dated two people who had very similar beliefs and goals as me, but there was obviously no chemistry and I'm so glad I didn't marry either one. On the other extreme, I've heard of secular people who got married without even discussing having children, so one partner assumed they'd have two or so right away, and the other wasn't sure they wanted kids, or maybe in five to ten years! Not discussing goals is even worse than only dating with chaperones.

[eye_browz]

Do you think fundie marriages are based on physical attraction, at least primarily?

In my opinion, during a courtship, physical attraction is guaranteed for the young man, not necessarily the young woman. He's the one that sees her, and probably says to himself "she's pretty, I'm going to pray about this and contact her father". The young woman simply has to accept or reject the courtship. And I'm led to believe that the girl will more than likely accept, because who wants to stay at home forever? And I don't know if a girl can reject a courtship based on the fact that "he's ugly". I'm pretty sure they have to pray about and I'm sure the families encourage her to "get to know his heart". If he has a good heart and is a good fundie husband material, she'll probably marry him anyway.

I came up with a couple of examples:

1. Michelle says she doesn't even remember meeting Jim Bob for the first time, when he came to her house or something like that... I'm assuming he didn't catch her eye. If a cute guy comes by my house, I surely wouldn't forget it! But Michelle didn't remember seeing him that first time. She spent time with him, they started dating, and then married him. Obviously, they have a fruitful marriage and loving, so it worked out.

2. Also Anna specifically stated (and I quote*) "It was NOT love at first sight for Anna Keller." To me, that means she saw him and said "Eh...". She then said that as she got to know him, she prayed and felt that he was "the one". This marriage worked out as well.

As for Jill and Jessa, I think they absolutely have physical attractions for their SOs. Same with all of the Bates couples. I think a girl should think carefully about physical attraction before accepting a courtship. Do they want to have sex with this guy? I dated 2 guys in high school that I wasn't really attracted to, but they were nice guys that I was already friends with, they liked and respected me so I dated them. Then in college, I felt a STRONG sexual attraction to a guy I was talking to. My point is that when you're young, sometimes you don't know what physical attraction is until you have sex or meet someone else who turns you on. So I hope these young women are not settling for the first guy they meet, due to fears of being 30+ and unmarried.

at 4:20

[bumblebee]

For the guys, yeah I do absolutely think physical attraction pays a large part in trying to set up a courtship. Also someone "who would accept me/who's father would accept me" but I don't think it was a coincidence that a lot of awkward looking and acting young men married very pretty "fundie royalty" young girls.

They had to pass the girls' father's tests which I do think it a big thing for a lot of families but once that happens the girl is often much more likely than not going to agree to a courtship, even if the guy is really awkward and they don't actually have much in common, even if it ends up broken later, see Zach and Sarah ie the reason the Bates relaxed just a little bit in subsequent courtships. I don't think Taylor Tanseles( Sp?) and Blair Brown end up together and married with him as a 17 year old and her in her early 20s anywhere but in the courtship model. A lot of post fundie girls talk about the pressures of accepting the first guy that asks just because you think that you'll be at home forever with no other prospects.

Woah. :shock: I've somehow missed this. Could someone point me toward more information? Thanks.

Search Elizabeth Munck and Joseph Maxwell on this site and there are a few threads, it was crazy. The Muncks are a family that gradually became more and more fundie (and social climbing fundie) over time before they fell in with the Maxwells. Elizabeth is a pretty girl who was then 19/20 and suitable with a suitably reverent for Steve Maxwell family. She and Joseph "fellowshipped" with the families a handful of times before what was literally an arranged marriage was announced with a 3 month engagement. The couple weren't even allowed to touch in their engagement photos, let alone at any other time. A house was duly being refurbished by the Maxwells for the happy couple and a conference was planned to showcase a reversal baby being biblically married with a no touch, no emotion courtship model.

Then she broke it off the week before the wedding and escaped the Maxwell compound for the next 50 years. As far as we know neither have made another attempt at marriage (this was 2012) and the Muncks have backed off being Maxwell worshipers.

[snark_bait]

Men in fundieland have a very large group to choose from (although, I'm sure they'd swear it was God telling them who to court). There are, sadly, many stay-at-home daughters waiting and hoping, and growing older.

Courtship, as it was introduced to me, was very much based off looks. My parents are Charismatic, and with that comes quite a bit more say-so on the part of women in the church. While the odds favor men, I know a lot of women who WOULD rather remain single, though usually working/ having a life outside the home. That said, fundies are ridiculously successful at keeping their sons in the church, when compared to many other Protestant sects, especially the Gothard bunch. I'd argue that the guys actually have less of a choice where it concerns choosing a wife (because it is a bit like pumpkin picking, isn't it?).

Anna Duggar married Josh, when her family wasn't Gothard cream of the crop, it seems. Of course, his sisters found pretty conservative guys to date, who don't seem to have direct ATI affiliation that I can dig up, aside from Ben having been home-schooled, which hardly proves anything.

I said all of that because I actually want holes pushed in this logic. I love fundie theories.

[It'sFunToRun]

In terms of looks and mating, normal people have a natural tendency to choose mates that look like themselves and their families. I know I have that tendency. I could easily believe that David and Pris are siblings, but also Josh and Anna, Jessa and Ben, and even Jill and Derrick look alike to me. It's interesting that Joy once said she thought that Jill would marry someone "dark, and who maybe speaks Spanish", but Jill married blue-eyed Derrick.

I could see a boy marrying a girl who looks different. I think Jana will go with the brown haired, blue eyed model. Jinger won't stray far, maybe brown hair and brown eyes.

[DGayle]

Maybe 4 years ago I read a blog by a fundy girl who had just gotten married. I can't remember the name of it, but the blue was blue, and the groom, for a lack of better descriptors, looked like a stereotypical scrawny redneck hick, and the bride looked like an Amish girl dressed in white. They were standing in front of what looked like the corner of a barn or wooden shed.

What stuck out to me more than anything was her saying that now they they're married, they can get to know each other. That has bothered me a lot.

[antwan]

*Whit is cute, but early days Anna was soooo awkward.

You mean like when Josh asked Anna to marry him, and after she accepted, he kept nervously laughing and saying, "Oh!"? yeah, awkward for sure.

That said, they seem blissfully happy now. :shrug:

[fun2beme]

I've noticed that a lot of fundie males marry women who are comparably more attractive than they are.

In the secular world, that's the norm. Average looking guy is looking for Miss America. WIth heart of Mother Teresa. Style of Kate Middleton. Who is as comfortable in a black dress as she is in jeans and a t-shirt. Who likes sushi and cooking Thai food, and is training for a marathon. And likes to travel. And is independent but not so much that she doens't need him. And is smart but not smarter than him.

Why yes, I have been on match-com too long; is my bitterness that obvious? Incidentally, I thought my boyfriend was OK looking when we met - not unattactive at all but average (no bust on average ppl since I consider myself to be at the lower end of that range) but as I got to know him better, he;s become cuter and cuter. :wink-kitty:

[louisa05]

A couple came to talk to students about courtship at the Christian school. They had courted at an older age after their eyes were opened by Josh Harris and after they repented individually for dating in their teens. They were probably mid to late 20s. The main part of the story was that he was praying before church for God to just show him a wife and opened his eyes and saw the most beautiful woman he had ever seen and knew he was supposed to marry her. He went up to her after the service and told her God said that and since she was searching for direction from God about marriage, she had to accept his word for it. Their chaperoned courtship lasted two months and they admitted to barely knowing each other when they got married. They babbled a lot about how it is only appropriate to get to know your spouse after the wedding so you don't "give away your heart" before.

She was tall, thin, model attractive with long, thick blond hair. He was shorter, a bit paunchy and balding.

And a former Congressman from my state was told by God that he should marry Miss America after seeing her in the airport. Since she was fundy lite, too, he managed to make it work out. What he didn't manage to achieve was getting elected governor or continuing his political career here. Not for lack of trying. But a friend of mine witnessed him in a cafe talking to elderly ranchers in the far western part of the state. He was telling them about how his fiancee, Miss America, was a virgin (he was already divorced, so he could not brag about himself). They did not care to know such things about a political candidate's partner and apparently did not care to vote for him, either.

[TrueRebel1]

I think fundies pursue courtships very much based on outward appearances. Do they wear modest clothing? (But still look kinda hot too?) Do they drive a conservative car (Don't want a show-off!)? Do they have lots of siblings? Do they go to a church that you approve of? And ultimately, since you don't necessarily get a chance to discover their real personality, then yes, the choice is based on how "attractive" they are to you.

But another aspect I've noticed is how well the guy or girl gets along with the possible future in-laws. For example, a girl meets a family at a homeschool conference. They have a son her age who seems eligible. She hangs out with his parents, his sisters. She gets all buddy-buddy with them. Pretty soon she's an easy, obvious choice for the son to pursue a courtship with. Same for the guys -- they might hit it off with a dad, discuss religious topics, come help with a work project, take the brothers on a guys camping trip. And soon, the girl can't really oppose entering a courtship with him, even though she may not know him personally. If he gets along with her parents and family, why should she discourage him?

It's all very shallow, IMO. If the end goal is to have strong, lasting marriages, the choice of a spouse should be based on more than looks, how they answer a questionnaire, or how compatible they are with your parents.

[Tiger Lily]

I've always felt uncomfortable with the concept of courting and reading these comments has ramped that up a notch. My main concern (besides the couples not really getting to know each other before the wedding which is absolutely horrifying to me) is that a courtship implies that a marriage will likely take place, and I feel that puts a lot of pressure on a young man or woman who may want to opt out. Supposedly, they're allowed to do that, however, I can imagine the pressure involved to continue the courtship or even marry if the parents on either side are really counting on a wedding. I'm thinking specifically of the Duggar daughter who is being courted by a guy two years her junior. He was only something like 18 when they began and I was wondering how he could possibly know she was The One at that age. Now he's on TV with them and it's sort of expected that they'll marry one day. What happens if he doesn't want to? What happens if she decides one day that she doesn't want to marry him? They're not the typical fundie couple in a sense because they're now famous. Lots of pressure there.

BTW, I'm not saying they shouldn't be a couple because he's younger. I'm a year older than my husband, however, he wasn't 18 when we met. Big difference!

[TrueRebel1]

I've always felt uncomfortable with the concept of courting and reading these comments has ramped that up a notch. My main concern (besides the couples not really getting to know each other before the wedding which is absolutely horrifying to me) is that a courtship implies that a marriage will likely take place, and I feel that puts a lot of pressure on a young man or woman who may want to opt out. Supposedly, they're allowed to do that, however, I can imagine the pressure involved to continue the courtship or even marry if the parents on either side are really counting on a wedding. I'm thinking specifically of the Duggar daughter who is being courted by a guy two years her junior. He was only something like 18 when they began and I was wondering how he could possibly know she was The One at that age. Now he's on TV with them and it's sort of expected that they'll marry one day. What happens if he doesn't want to? What happens if she decides one day that she doesn't want to marry him? They're not the typical fundie couple in a sense because they're now famous. Lots of pressure there.

BTW, I'm not saying they shouldn't be a couple because he's younger. I'm a year older than my husband, however, he wasn't 18 when we met. Big difference!

Yes, the pressure and assumption that marriage will happen is disturbing. When I was courting, I don't think I could have called it off if I felt we weren't right for each other. Everyone assumed from day one that we would get married. The worst aspect for me was that friendly chit-chat talk (the kind of talk where you bond with a person and get to feel comfortable with them) seemed so shallow and not worth our time. We were bound to get engaged and married within weeks, so shouldn't we talk about our goals in life, and what we think about religion and birth control and homeschooling and finances? And yet, it's hard to delve into talking about a future sex life or a married budget plan with someone you've only known a month. It made for many awkward conversation, much miscommunication, and missing out on a fun, friendly early part of our relationship.

[salex]

Based on some threads I've read in the Theonomist pages and on what one guy I used to debate on another board, I believe more and more courtship will move toward arranged marriages, based on what two fathers can agree on. This will, I suspect be based on how well the fathers agree on religion and looks (ie, what the fathers thing are attractive physical traits). I see it as similar to breeding registered cattle or dogs--only instead of a prize heifer, you are deciding who to breed your daughter with. :angry-screaming:

I suspect money and power will also enter into it, since these guys are heavy into hierarchy, but they don't propose that the boys are able to support their new brides independently, from what I can tell. There seem to be 2 reasons for this-- they push for very young marriages to avoid sexual sin/temptation and because the father sees himself as a patriarch til death, with his sons doing what he advises, even after marriage and as adults, until his death.

I suspect when God talks to these guys (as we know he does) his voice sounds just like their own.