Let's talk about mh17 shot down over Ukraine

[antares]

A thread to talk about this recent event. Anyone wanna chime in!

I'll start. I'm really disgusted at how the crash site is being handled :(

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ccess-live

[FakePigtails]

I'm also so disgusted. I knew Russia/Putin was bad but this is beyond the pale, especially as we see the investigation get held up by the separatists (who are basically Russian military) while Putin denies any involvement, blaming Ukraine instead. The only thing that helps is knowing that our spy satellites should have information that can prove who did this (John Kerry was on CNN saying we had a satellite detect the missile, explosion, and some movement of the Buk launcher after, and I'm sure there's more he couldn't reveal). I still can't imagine the horror of losing a loved one in this crash and then finding out that their remains were being disrespected and evidence of the cause of their death tampered with.

[Peas n carrots]

Everything about this is just bad. Not that any plane crash is but geo politically this could start another Cold War.

The ball is in Putin's court, and so far he is doing a poor job handling this.

[DutchGirl]

It's is heartbreaking to see and hear what is going on at the crashsite. Because the Netherlands is just a smal country and most victims are dutch, it's like everybody knows somebody who lost one or more loved ones.

(in my case, it's 2 people from my compagnie, 2 people of the hospital my shop is based in, cousins of a internet-friend and a classmate of one of my young co-workers)

so many people are in pain and sorrow and the fact that the team of investigators are not allowed on the crashsite just adds to that. :cry:

[twinmama]

My husband's first comment on it was that this is the kind of thing that used to start world wars. Of course, war with Russia can't really happen now with nukes and all. The scary thing is that short of more sanctions, or some mutually assured destruction, not much can even be done!

[16strong]

My husband's first comment on it was that this is the kind of thing that used to start world wars. Of course, war with Russia can't really happen now with nukes and all. The scary thing is that short of more sanctions, or some mutually assured destruction, not much can even be done!

The discomforting thing is that less than this has started battles and wars before. Look at the Seige of Sarajevo...a WEDDING triggered that one. Talk about needless wars...

[RosyDaisy]

An American athlete was killed. I can't think of her name off hand.

[Anny Nym]

It´s also FAR BEYOND simple discomforting that a lot of people seem to hop on the "This must be somehow Russias fault!" bandwagon quite fast!

I really miss the honest talk about the current fascist ukrainian regime and the possible involvement of said one in alot of ongoing discussions.

[RosyDaisy]

It´s also FAR BEYOND simple discomforting that a lot of people seem to hop on the "This must be somehow Russias fault!" bandwagon quite fast!

I really miss the honest talk about the current fascist ukrainian regime and the possible involvement of said one in alot of ongoing discussions.

I agree. I believe Russia is being used as a scapegoat for this.

[Anny Nym]

I'm also so disgusted. I knew Russia/Putin was bad but this is beyond the pale, especially as we see the investigation get held up by the separatists (who are basically Russian military) while Putin denies any involvement, blaming Ukraine instead. The only thing that helps is knowing that our spy satellites should have information that can prove who did this (John Kerry was on CNN saying we had a satellite detect the missile, explosion, and some movement of the Buk launcher after, and I'm sure there's more he couldn't reveal). ...

1.) :roll: Well, when you already just KNEW...

2.) No, they are not - they are separatists. Separatists from the east ukrainian region. The russian military ist the military force of Russia. One is not to confuse with the other - like not to confuse ukrainian military forces with Blackwater merchants.

3.) I´ll just leave that one as it is - with the highlighting.

[Childless]

Who do you think supplied those separatists with the missile that brought down the plane? Putin has had his hands in Ukraine since annexing Crimea. He started the whole thing by virtually stealing the land of another country. Regardless of who currently runs the Ukraine, Putin's actions were wrong. If a group of Minnesotans suddenly decided they wanted to be Canadian and Canada came in a annexed the state of Minnesota, the U.S. would fight. Even people who despise the Obama administration would support armed resistance to protect any further annexation by Canada. I hardly think anyone has the right to ostracize Ukraine for doing exactly what we would do in a similar situation.

I find it puzzling that there are people who support and stand up for Putin despite his actions in Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to self-determination. Just because they decide to overthrow a very corrupt government and install a new regime, does not give another country the right to march in and steal their land simply because they disagree with the new government.

[Anny Nym]

Who do you think supplied those separatists with the missile that brought down the plane? Putin has had his hands in Ukraine since annexing Crimea. He started the whole thing by virtually stealing the land of another country. Regardless of who currently runs the Ukraine, Putin's actions were wrong. If a group of Minnesotans suddenly decided they wanted to be Canadian and Canada came in a annexed the state of Minnesota, the U.S. would fight. Even people who despise the Obama administration would support armed resistance to protect any further annexation by Canada. I hardly think anyone has the right to ostracize Ukraine for doing exactly what we would do in a similar situation.

I find it puzzling that there are people who support and stand up for Putin despite his actions in Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to self-determination. Just because they decide to overthrow a very corrupt government and install a new regime, does not give another country the right to march in and steal their land simply because they disagree with the new government.

No offence, but there are alot of fundamental flaws in your comment.

Number one ist to write like you already knew 101%forsure who shot the plane with what weapon system provided by whom. Until yet, not even experts are on par about that. And neither could you.

Another one is to break the Crimea (which is a historically complex situation itself) and its referendum down to "Putin stole it" like saying "Jimmy stole a candy bar at the drugstore" - which is just wrong in the first place! Nobody "marched in".

The crimean citizens voted and as the vast majority were already ethnic russians, they voted for their mother land. Democracy also means to accept decisions made by the voting mayority that go against the wishes of certain people.

In the case of the ukrainian regime, they clearly "traded pest for cholera", there is no progress imho - but that´s probably another story and in fact a wholly ukrainian problem.

I don´t see why the Crimea referendum should be more "wrong" than the Kosovo referendum. But I´d like to hear your opinion on that.

Or another thing @childless: If South Tyrol, which is a part of Italy, though being ethnically austrian, is doing a referendum to become part of Austria once again (which indeed could happen sooner than later now) and the austrian government would support this claim (what many people, including me, do too) - would it be rightfully by Italy "to protect their regions from annexion" - even if there was no annexion but an understandable urge to "come home" ? Would Obama have any right to take sides and actions?

What would you say?

[Blahblah]

I know virtually nothing about politics, annexure of land, geopolitical hoo-hah etc. and I won't comment on those aspects.

What I do know is that swaggering quasi-military criminals have been controlling the site and preventing appropriate officials from documenting the site and retrieving dead people. These same dead people have been left in the sun to decompose while there have been local villagers and rebels wandering willy-nilly all over the place like it's some sort of gruesome theme park.

Personal belongings have been rummaged through and looted. Passports collected like trading cards. Toys and books held up for public scrutiny. Can you imagine if you lost a child only to see their beloved teddy bear being waved around in the hands of one of these gun-toting idiots?

For now, just for now, I don't care why or how it happened. Bring them home, let people grieve, and then start the political arguments. This is bigger than drawing lines in the sand and fighting over who owns which bit.

Let them all just come home.

[shedemei]

If a group of Minnesotans suddenly decided they wanted to be Canadian and Canada came in a annexed the state of Minnesota, the U.S. would fight. Even people who despise the Obama administration would support armed resistance to protect any further annexation by Canada.

I actually think they'd start screaming false flag and states rights, then explode because they'd be in a situation where they would be betraying their values no matter what they do.

[PrairieGirl]

I am not a political discussion type of person, so I will refrain. Just wanted to comment on the horror of the lives lost. I hope they can find some peace.

[twinmama]

I hope Canada doesn't annex Minnesota until I move there. I'd love to be Canadian!!

[GeoBQn]

A passenger plane being shot down by a missile seems like the type of thing that would never happen in the 21st century.

On a different note, I wonder if Malaysia Airlines is going to close after having two major international tragedies with large planes within 4 months of each other.

[apple1]

I am not a political discussion type of person, so I will refrain. Just wanted to comment on the horror of the lives lost. I hope they can find some peace.

Same thoughts here. Sending my condolences to the families and friends of those who died in this tragedy.

As a healthcare professional, I also can't help but mention the loss to the cause of HIV research and treatment associated with the loss of some of the best minds in that area.

[crazyforkate]

This is horrendous. And I think we have only just begun to see the consequences. I'm willing to bet that this was just a terrible mishandling of technology far too powerful for the ragtag fighters handling it, and the Russian government is likely pretty furious about it. Shooting a civilian plane just does not seem to be their MO. Just hoping they haven't "shot the archduke", so to speak...

[Anny Nym]

This is horrendous. And I think we have only just begun to see the consequences. I'm willing to bet that this was just a terrible mishandling of technology far too powerful for the ragtag fighters handling it, and the Russian government is likely pretty furious about it. Shooting a civilian plane just does not seem to be their MO. Just hoping they haven't "shot the archduke", so to speak...

I -almost!- completely agree with you :D

There is - up to this very time - literally no exact proof who actually shot the plane - or what, as not only BUK systems shoot ground-air -missiles, but so do the Suchoi-25 Jets. ...

The only thing we know is, that again a few hundred people died an unnecessary death. Everything else is in the twilight zone right now.

"Almost", because I DO think this is an "shot the Archduke" version in a way...

[nausicaa]

I -almost!- completely agree with you :D

There is - up to this very time - literally no exact proof who actually shot the plane - or what, as not only BUK systems shoot ground-air -missiles, but so do the Suchoi-25 Jets. ...

The only thing we know is, that again a few hundred people died an unnecessary death. Everything else is in the twilight zone right now.

"Almost", because I DO think this is an "shot the Archduke" version in a way...

Interesting, in what way do you think the "Archduke has been shot?" and which interests/parties do you think are affected?

[Anny Nym]

Interesting, in what way do you think the "Archduke has been shot?" and which interests/parties do you think are affected?

Because this obvious attempt to spark a inner-european war will enable many countries in Europe to finally break free from certain former power bases of the 20th century, who still hold their grip, or desperately trying to do so. BRICS will be the leading force in the 21st century.