if they eloped

[mebeforee]

I was just wondering what would happen to a couple of Quiverfull kids if they took off and eloped rather than going through the accepted courtship model? Surely some of these kids have known each other for much of their lives (long enough to know they like each other), some of them also have their own money and vehicles to make such a thing possible. It might be hard for them to organize an escape like that, but just imagine at a conference or a family visit, all they'd need would be a few minutes to make a getaway. What kind of fallout would they receive from their families? Disownment? Once they were married they wouldn't be allowed to divorce so it seems like it would be kind of a huge drama to watch unfold, especially between otherwise "good" children... would the parents consider it invalid because the father didn't transfer his authority or whatever?

[mebeforee]

(Also, I actually meant to post this in Quiverfull of Snark, not sure what happened - I guess I wasn't paying close attention and clicked on WWOS instead... sorry! I don't know how to move it :? )

[Mama Mia]

It seems like it would be something they would avoid if both of the young people are already in families that believe in courtship, unless they asked to court and were turned down by the parents.

Otherwise they are asking for a mountain of drama and family strife that they could avoid by just waiting for the physical contact for a few months.

Just my opinion, I don't know any real life people who live like this.

[Jana814]

It seems like it would be something they would avoid if both of the young people are already in families that believe in courtship, unless they asked to court and were turned down by the parents.

Have to agree w/ you about this. Also some of them may not even know what eloping is.

[jerkit]

This is basically what happened with zsuzsanna and Stevie. His parents were pissed but got over it. Two kids who want to fuck, just trying to make it honest.

[Jana814]

This is basically what happened with zsuzsanna and Stevie. His parents were pissed but got over it. Two kids who want to fuck, just trying to make it honest.

That's right I forgot that they eloped.

[jerkit]

Part 1 of a millionty of their story: sanderson1611.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-wife-zsuzsa-part-1.html?m=1

[Coco]

From knowing a few couples who did that, they are looked down on forever afterward by hard line people who know the story. Though they can still have a good reputation if they toe the party line and get into a group that hasn't known them forever.

Also, they don't get the perks of wedding presents, wedding helpers, connections, a good story, maybe free housing, etc. to help them get a good start in the community.

It's generally the choice of the youth who have been on the fringe already. Too many rules along with a closed lifestyle can make good kids seem "bad". It's just so sad that any step toward freedom of thought can become a risk of damaging close relationships, even if they are decent kids.

[FundieWatcher]

They might not have the documents they need to get married. Like birth certificates or social security cards?

[mebeforee]

They might know where those documents were kept, though. Especially in families where there's so little privacy - I mean, before TLC came into the Duggars' lives, the older girls were even cleaning their parents' bedroom. Surely they'd stumble across that stuff eventually, right?

[FundieWatcher]

They might keep it in a safety deposit box. Just to prevent or at least make it harder for the children to leave.

[ADoyle90815]

They might know where those documents were kept, though. Especially in families where there's so little privacy - I mean, before TLC came into the Duggars' lives, the older girls were even cleaning their parents' bedroom. Surely they'd stumble across that stuff eventually, right?

That's true, especially if they are allowed driver's licenses, they would have seen where their birth certificates are stored. For those families that have traveled out of the US for missionary work or traveling, they would have needed a passport, so they would have seen their birth certificates and Social Security cards. That's especially the case for the Duggar family as they've been out of the country courtesy of TLC. That is, of course if fundie families don't keep those documents in a safety deposit box.

[mebeforee]

I guess it never occurred to me that they might have safety deposit boxes, because in my own family that stuff is just kept in random places. My parents have a lockbox that has been packed full of so many random documents that it can't even close, which includes some of the birth certificates (at least one of which has been gnawed on by a dog somehow), and we all got our social security cards given to us when we turned 18. In such a controlling environment it makes sense that they might use a safety deposit box, but then that's also another fee or service outside the family that the parents would have to engage in, which might mean they wouldn't do it just because it's part of the 'system'. (Cue play of the 'Threw it on the Ground' video, :lol: )

[Mama Mia]

I think I've read on here that some of them don't even HAVE birth certificates or social security cards because their parents don't want to be part of the system. I assume that only applies to a few though. I can't imagine why these people would purposefully set their kids up for the same struggles undocumented immigrants face every day--- but in many ways they are very, very similar to kids who arrive in the u.s. As children with no paperwork. They don't have a language barrier- but other than that it's horribly similar.

[Coco]

I think I've read on here that some of them don't even HAVE birth certificates or social security cards because their parents don't want to be part of the system. I assume that only applies to a few though. I can't imagine why these people would purposefully set their kids up for the same struggles undocumented immigrants face every day--- but in many ways they are very, very similar to kids who arrive in the u.s. As children with no paperwork. They don't have a language barrier- but other than that it's horribly similar.

Yes, and then they start believing in "covenant" marriages (no officiant or license) and communal funding for houses and vehicles. Or, going through uber-wealthy supporters -- take Leininger for instance. I've worked in a fundie business office and witnessed people paying loans and rent to some patriarchal business owners. Closed loop system. :evil: Tragic that this kind of group control and fear of the normal workings of society has begun to reach into more mainstream looking ATI groups, when it used to just be in the confines of polygamist FLDS and fringe Anabaptist-type groups.

[FundieWatcher]

If you don't have a birth certificate and you weren't born in a hospital, I have no idea how you go about trying to live normal life. I assume there is a way through a lawyer and courts, but how many people in those circumstances would go through the process. Sad, parents setting up their kids for failure.

[artdecades]

in the case of elopement, would the bride's father still consider himself her headship, since there was no "transfer of authority"? I could imagine that would create some drama in a fundie household.

[DomWackTroll]

Voddie just posted about this on FB today! It's a music video of some douchebag pleading with an uptight dad for his daughter's hand.

facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/posts/10152425931887550

[mebeforee]

in the case of elopement, would the bride's father still consider himself her headship, since there was no "transfer of authority"? I could imagine that would create some drama in a fundie household.

I'm really curious about this, too. I mean, in one way, the husband is the 'headship' of the wife. But if the father doesn't grant it, does it still count? What I've read in the Bible doesn't really address this issue (and I doubt I'll be able to speedread through the parts I'm not very familiar with to find it), and I wonder if that aspect of 'authority' is really laid out in the Bible in concrete terms. The man of the family is always shown as being the leader, but either it's the husband or the father. I can't remember ever coming across a Biblical marriage spelled out, where the father gives up his leadership to another man. Honestly, it seems more like something that has come through patriarchal communities springing up to invent more ways to keep their populace ignorant, insecure and under control.

[Coconut Flan]

It's extra-biblical patriarchy so you won't find it. Who knows about the transfer of authority because that's a man made up thing. I expect the father would have to accept the daughter had moved on.

[mebeforee]

Voddie just posted about this on FB today! It's a music video of some douchebag pleading with an uptight dad for his daughter's hand.

facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/posts/10152425931887550

I won't deny the guy is a douche, but damn if the song isn't catchy. I'm way more on the douche's side than the dad's, lmao. "I'm gonna marry her anyway!" because the girl has a choice, after all. It's not a business transaction! 'The heart want what the heart wants' and all that. The comments on that thread make me want to smack a great many internet strangers, though.

[mebeforee]

It's extra-biblical patriarchy so you won't find it. Who knows about the transfer of authority because that's a man made up thing. I expect the father would have to accept the daughter had moved on.

I sure hope that's the case. I imagine it would be harder to explain away a disownment than a surprise/sudden marriage, too, which might be a large factor. For all they seem to preach modesty and honesty, they're clearly very concerned with reputation and standing.

[salex]

in the case of elopement, would the bride's father still consider himself her headship, since there was no "transfer of authority"? I could imagine that would create some drama in a fundie household.

Then there is the bit the patriarchs go to about how men can invalidate any contract a wife or daughter makes if they do it quickly. Not that they are likely to do so if the couple has consumated, since then the girl has lost value.

[mebeforee]

Would they just assume the couple has consummated? I mean, if they are so strict about making sure their own children never see a sibling's bare skin (after babyhood, anyway), I doubt anyone in the family would volunteer to check their sister's hymen.

(And I'm aware that there are a thousand ways other than sex that can break the hymen, but these are people who often seem to consider even tampons unsafe, so I don't know how much they buy into the idea that a regular active lifestyle can do it...)

[Coco]

I sure hope that's the case. I imagine it would be harder to explain away a disownment than a surprise/sudden marriage, too, which might be a large factor. For all they seem to preach modesty and honesty, they're clearly very concerned with reputation and standing.

Most of them would say the new hubby is the authority of his bride.

If the elopers didn't marry, it would still be the dads in authority. And in some cases a father will keep lording it over his married kids since fundies teach that God speaks and leads through the father's authority.

And it would definitely hurt the prospects of the other kids in the family to have black sheep (kids who "rebelled") hanging around.

These families are so interconnected. It's not like a typical American family, where each child has an individual life once they enter preschool... individual friends, different teachers and coaches than other siblings, and everyday experiences that are all their own. Fundie families stick together in almost everything. A typical American teenager could elope with only slightly disturbing the family, but not a fundie teenager.