Virtuous Daughters

[SoybeanQueen]

She's going to be waiting a while, I'd guess. The Messianic "Jew" stuff is mega awkward. I'm just a regular non-denominational Christian, and I find that fakery embarrassing by association.

[lilith]

That blog is so weird. I read the posts and it sounds like the writing of an earnest naive teenage SAHD, but then you see the photos of her and she looks way older than me (I'm 33). It's not just her age - some SAHDs in their thirties still look like the innocent maidens they proclaim they are (Sarah Maxwell, The Botkinettes, Sarah Mally), but Samantha looks careworn and older than her age. And she's got a tribe of younger sisters (some already married) so any faux Jew lunatic who did submit to the questionnaires and somehow agree with her father on every point would probably choose one of her sisters anyway.

She is seriously stunted, stuck in her prolonged adolescence waiting for her "Love" (she always capitalises it) to show up and fill her quiver, but she's more than halfway through her fertile years.

[Emme]

And off I've gone down the rabbit hole. This chick is fascinating. And completely misunderstands tzitzit. It's not fringe you stick on your skirt. Oy vey. seriously? The men in her family wear fringe on the bottoms of their pants? That's NOT how it works.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I do know some people IRL who actually do some version of dating CV, questionnaires and reference checks for potential spouses.

Once upon a time, my husband's name was given as a reference for his pal, and he got a call from a woman.

The rules are that you need to answer any question honestly but you aren't supposed to volunteer negative information if you aren't asked, because that would be considered gossiping and bad-mouthing.

So....she asked a lot of questions about exactly which movement and which rabbis he followed. I'm pretty sure there was a question about television. There were several nit-picky questions on beliefs and practices.

Here's what she didn't ask and didn't learn: How did the first marriage end? How is the current relationhip with the ex-wife? How much of a debt from the legal bills is still owing? What issues have been identified with the children? Does he have freaky sex and then tell his buddies the details? Will he decide that a relationship would never work but figure that he can at least have some quick sex before breaking it off? Has he ever acknowledged that his brother is gay? Has he ever made any shocking or cringe-worthy comments? How does he get along with others?

[BeaSnarky]

updated to add more questions, or remove some? :O

I think my favorite is #125: "Are you a vegetarian? If so, please explain."

This takes me back to My Big Fat Greek Wedding...

What do you mean "he dont' eat no meat?"

That's ok...I make lamb.

[Palimpsest]

Falling down the rabbit hole too. Please send out a search party if I'm not back in 24 hours . . .

Is this the longest questionnaire we've found to date? WTF 170 questions!

These Messianic Jewish families intrigue me. I always wonder whether they are ethnic/cultural Jewish with the evangelical Jebus overlay, or whether they are ethnic/cultural Gentile/Christian just trying to be superior to other Christians by cherry-picking Judaism. The later type seem to fuck it up really badly. Fond memories of someone serving Cheeseburger soup at a Seder. . . :P

I think Samantha is about 36 and was 30 when she started the site. Those hideous skirts with the blue riband fringes. Hah!

ETA. Bloody hell! Is this family into eugenics or what? Do they also inspect the teeth of any unfortunate suitor? See questions 15 and 134. Generational curses, are you concerned about your ancestors, and what are the heath issues of your grandparents? Pffft! Why not go back a few more generations? Hell, everyone dies of something in the end!

[Palimpsest]

I do know some people IRL who actually do some version of dating CV, questionnaires and reference checks for potential spouses.

Once upon a time, my husband's name was given as a reference for his pal, and he got a call from a woman.

The rules are that you need to answer any question honestly but you aren't supposed to volunteer negative information if you aren't asked, because that would be considered gossiping and bad-mouthing.

So....she asked a lot of questions about exactly which movement and which rabbis he followed. I'm pretty sure there was a question about television. There were several nit-picky questions on beliefs and practices.

Here's what she didn't ask and didn't learn: How did the first marriage end? How is the current relationhip with the ex-wife? How much of a debt from the legal bills is still owing? What issues have been identified with the children? Does he have freaky sex and then tell his buddies the details? Will he decide that a relationship would never work but figure that he can at least have some quick sex before breaking it off? Has he ever acknowledged that his brother is gay? Has he ever made any shocking or cringe-worthy comments? How does he get along with others?

Interesting. Was this a sort of arranged marriage? Theoretically it's not such a bad idea to get references if done right. Was this the potential bride making the call or a matchmaker service?

The way around the bolded problem would be: "Are there any other questions that you think I should have asked? If so, what are they?"

[alba]

These Messianic Jewish families intrigue me. I always wonder whether they are ethnic/cultural Jewish with the evangelical Jebus overlay, or whether they are ethnic/cultural Gentile/Christian just trying to be superior to other Christians by cherry-picking Judaism. The later type seem to fuck it up really badly. Fond memories of someone serving Cheeseburger soup at a Seder. . . :P

It's weird, isn't it? I can understand the motivation to retain your family's cultural traditions even when you don't follow the religious beliefs to which they apply. It's not really any different from atheists celebrating Christmas with their families. It's the conflation of terminology that I find so strange. If you're ethnically/culturally Jewish but religiously Christian, then those two categories really have no place in the same phrase. It's like if I were to call myself an Atheistic Scot. Well, I am an atheist, and I am a Scot, but my Scottish cultural traditions and my atheism are two different things.

As for the Christians who start (mis)appropriating from Judaism, well, that's just vastly insensitive.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Interesting. Was this a sort of arranged marriage? Theoretically it's not such a bad idea to get references if done right. Was this the potential bride making the call or a matchmaker service?

The way around the bolded problem would be: "Are there any other questions that you think I should have asked? If so, what are they?"

He's a bit older and divorced, so it wasn't the typical parents and matchmaker doing the set-up scenario. In some parts of the Orthodox Jewish community, though, they thoroughly check out potential spouses before they actually introduce the couple. My husband has received the odd call as a medical reference, and tends to hate them.

Some older or newly religious Orthodox singles will make the calls themselves, as this woman did. They may have connected through an online dating site for religious Jews.

To be clear: I don't have any issue with thinking in advance, before emotions and hormones are involved, about what you really want in a spouse and what issues would be a deal breaker for you. I think it's a good idea check out a potential mate and ask questions. I just don't think that an overly formal process does a good job of really telling you everything about someone's character and personality.

I did informally ask some people about my husband around the time that we started dating. However, I also worked with him, saw first hand how he got along with others and worked hard and did amazing work with kids and never had anyone say a bad word about him. I met his whole family and saw how everyone interacted. I saw him when he was under extreme stress, and when he was dealing with a serious crisis. Those things told me far more about the type of person that he was than any questionnaire could.

[GeoBQn]

These Messianic Jewish families intrigue me. I always wonder whether they are ethnic/cultural Jewish with the evangelical Jebus overlay, or whether they are ethnic/cultural Gentile/Christian just trying to be superior to other Christians by cherry-picking Judaism. The later type seem to fuck it up really badly. Fond memories of someone serving Cheeseburger soup at a Seder. . . :P

"Messianic Jews" tend to be the latter--Christians play-acting as Jews to either feel like speshul snowflakes, or to try to lure Jews to Christianity. Unfortunately, they can be successful among groups like Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union who were cut off from knowledge about Judaism.

[Palimpsest]

"Messianic Jews" tend to be the latter--Christians play-acting as Jews to either feel like speshul snowflakes, or to try to lure Jews to Christianity. Unfortunately, they can be successful among groups like Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union who were cut off from knowledge about Judaism.

Thanks for the clarification. I suppose the former type would tend more towards Jews for Jesus? Time was (late 70s and 80s) that you couldn't walk across a college campus without tripping over a few of them. I suppose they still exist as an entity but I haven't seen any Jews for Jesus proselytizing for years.

These Messianic Christians playing at being Jewish are grossly insensitive -- actually offensive is a better word -- but it's still quite hard not to laugh at how ridiculous they are in their cherry-picking.

That said, the July 14th entry (written by one of Samantha's friends) "Israel ... What Does it Matter?" is rendering me almost speechless. So many levels of wrongness there. Good Grief!

[Palimpsest]

He's a bit older and divorced, so it wasn't the typical parents and matchmaker doing the set-up scenario. In some parts of the Orthodox Jewish community, though, they thoroughly check out potential spouses before they actually introduce the couple. My husband has received the odd call as a medical reference, and tends to hate them.

Some older or newly religious Orthodox singles will make the calls themselves, as this woman did. They may have connected through an online dating site for religious Jews.

To be clear: I don't have any issue with thinking in advance, before emotions and hormones are involved, about what you really want in a spouse and what issues would be a deal breaker for you. I think it's a good idea check out a potential mate and ask questions. I just don't think that an overly formal process does a good job of really telling you everything about someone's character and personality.

I did informally ask some people about my husband around the time that we started dating. However, I also worked with him, saw first hand how he got along with others and worked hard and did amazing work with kids and never had anyone say a bad word about him. I met his whole family and saw how everyone interacted. I saw him when he was under extreme stress, and when he was dealing with a serious crisis. Those things told me far more about the type of person that he was than any questionnaire could.

I don't disagree. In fact, I might even go a step further. I don't think there is intrinsically anything wrong with arranged marriages, with the proviso that there is no coercion involved and that either party can pull out before marriage without dishonor. I'd add that (Fundies take note) after the initial screening couples should meet, talk, date without chaperones, and be able to do the equivalent of a scratch and sniff test to make sure they are sexually compatible. No, that doesn't have to involve full intercourse.

I think sensible people do screen potential partners even when parents aren't involved with 170 questions. It is wise to have a check-list (written or mental) of deal breakers and qualities you want in a spouse. You don't have to take it to these Fundie extremes though.

In the past family, friends and matchmakers introduced people. My parents were brought together by a romantically inclined church lady-type in fact. She set them up by offering my mother a ride to see her parents and asked my father to drive them both because she had "hurt her wrist." They learned later that wrist injury was totally faked because they were "so suited" and needed to spend time together -- with her as the chaperone.

Screening methods have changed and evolved, whether it is families asking questions, completing a questionnaire for a dating site, or individuals talking to friends and family or stalking someone's Facebook, Twitter or Instagram accounts and, of course, Google is your friend.

OTOH, Mr. P. and I are fast approaching our 35th wedding anniversary. Our parents were certainly not overjoyed when we decided to get married. Devout Catholics on one side and equally devout Fundie-lite on the other. My father was a complete asshole about it. But Mr. P. was Agnostic Catholic in recovery and I was the black sheep atheist. We also technically lived together before we even met. Long story, we were students and housemates with 12 other people (chaperones?) and didn't meet in person until a week after he moved in. So we knew each other really well as friends before we actually dated -- let alone got married.

Bottom line: there's nothing really wrong with screening potential partners or involving family -- but these Fundies go completely overboard about it!

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re "Messianic Jews" - I'll summarize what I wrote on past threads.

These groups often deliberately target Jews and try to sell them "Messianic Judaism", which is basically a core of evangelical Christian theology dressed up with some Hebrew terms and pseudo-Jewish rituals. People like me object to the deliberate targeting and lack of honesty. If you are speaking to American Jews about your religious organization and you use code words to avoid saying Jesus, church, Christian or Christianity, New Testament or anything else that might indicate that you are Christian, and you deliberately allow them to think that you are a Jewish group, that's deceptive.

That said, there are some groups that have ended up attracting Christians and having them adopt some Jewish practices. I don't consider them Jewish in the core theology is still Christian, but I also don't think that it's up to me to tell any Christian what to believe. Yes, they often do it wrong, sometimes in spectacularly bad ways. I'd also argue, though, that there are big chunks of mainstream Christianity that get Judaism wrong, sometimes in spectacularly bad ways, on issues much bigger than calling random fringes tzitzit.

I discovered a few years ago that most Israeli Jews don't have the same horrified reaction to Messianics that North American Jews do. In North America, it's seen as a predatory targeting of a small minority religion by the dominant religion. In Israel, they are largely seen as a weird but friendly fringe group. They can't legally do any large-scale efforts to convert Jews there. I doubt the curious Israelis that they mention in the piece really care about Jesus, but I don't doubt that people would be curious and wonder just what they were all about.

[Emme]

As a Jew, I don't consider them Jewish at all. I think of them as pushier than average Christians with a misunderstanding of Judaism and a condescending tone. I would enjoy running into them I think. They'd get their asses kicked theologically if they tried to go to Crown Heights, Brooklyn or other Orthodox areas.

Re: marriage stuff. Chabad uses a service where people submit DNA or something and get assigned a number. Prior to a couple meeting they each submit their number and the service tells them if they will have healthy kids or if their child has a chance of having any number of genetic disorders common among Jews. If they will not have healthy children, the couple never even goes on a date.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re genetic testing:

Dor Yeshorim isn't just for Chabad - it's used fairly widely throughout the ultra-Orthodox community in general. They test anonymously, and will only say whether or not a particular match would be okay or not (from the POV of avoiding specific genetic diseases).

The idea was that anonymous testing would be needed in order to sell this community on the idea of genetic testing. This is a community that does arranged marriages (or at least arranged introductions), and there is tons of parental involvement and pre-screening of potential spouses. Part of that is medical screening. The unfortunate spin-off is that in these communities, there can be tremendous stigma attached to certain issues, and a paranoia that certain issues, if known, would prevent any child in the family from ever getting a decent marriage.

Since the Ashkenazi Jewish gene pool is pretty shallow, some of the earliest identification of genetic diseases and mass screenings were done here. My parents were tested for the Tay-Sachs gene when I was a newborn - and got the scare of their lives when they found out that they were both carriers. Imagine getting a call and finding out that there is a 1 in 4 chance that your healthy new baby actually has a disease with no cure or treatment that will cause them to show symptoms around 6 mos and slowly get worse until they die before their 5th birthday. Anyway, the mass screenings in the community reduced incidence of Tay Sachs disease by 90-95%. Since I always knew the facts about the disease and what it means to be a carrier, it was never a source of stigma in my home. We just knew we needed to get tested.

[Coco]

That blog is so weird. I read the posts and it sounds like the writing of an earnest naive teenage SAHD, but then you see the photos of her and she looks way older than me (I'm 33). It's not just her age - some SAHDs in their thirties still look like the innocent maidens they proclaim they are (Sarah Maxwell, The Botkinettes, Sarah Mally), but Samantha looks careworn and older than her age. And she's got a tribe of younger sisters (some already married) so any faux Jew lunatic who did submit to the questionnaires and somehow agree with her father on every point would probably choose one of her sisters anyway.

She is seriously stunted, stuck in her prolonged adolescence waiting for her "Love" (she always capitalises it) to show up and fill her quiver, but she's more than halfway through her fertile years.

snip

I think Samantha is about 36 and was 30 when she started the site...

This isn't the most flattering photo on the site:

The years haven't been kind to her. I feel so sad for her. I hope she can just be happy as a single woman and aunt... it's probably time for her to give up the dream of marriage. Marriage won't be an easy road for her if the questionnaire is her idea. You have to be flexible and forgiving and just overlook a lot of quirks in marriage, especially as the woman in a fundie marriage. I guess she could get her dream fulfilled by becoming a widower's wife, but talk about a sad existence coming into an established family only to be mainly a maid, manager of kids and "relief" for the hubby who could choose to be mean and compare everything to his first love. :angry-banghead:

Or, marry an old bachelor who's set in his weird religious ways and could lead her into even more weirdness to which she would have to submit. Especially if she's wanting a Tevye kind of guy. Marriage is a lot of work even in the best of circumstances, and at times the loneliness of single life can invade a marriage. There's so much truth to the saying that you have to be happy on your own before you know you're strong enough to be a wife. And, you don't have to be the mother of a child to love caring for them say as an aunt, and then get to walk away and enjoy time alone.

Confession: it's been a rough year for me as a mom of two small high-needs kids, moving away from family and married to a hubby who travels weeks at a time for work. lol

Stay free, Samantha! Enjoy sewing and writing with different colored ink in your journals! The dream of marriage is not always the reality.

[Emme]

Re genetic testing:

Dor Yeshorim isn't just for Chabad - it's used fairly widely throughout the ultra-Orthodox community in general. They test anonymously, and will only say whether or not a particular match would be okay or not (from the POV of avoiding specific genetic diseases).

The idea was that anonymous testing would be needed in order to sell this community on the idea of genetic testing. This is a community that does arranged marriages (or at least arranged introductions), and there is tons of parental involvement and pre-screening of potential spouses. Part of that is medical screening. The unfortunate spin-off is that in these communities, there can be tremendous stigma attached to certain issues, and a paranoia that certain issues, if known, would prevent any child in the family from ever getting a decent marriage.

Since the Ashkenazi Jewish gene pool is pretty shallow, some of the earliest identification of genetic diseases and mass screenings were done here. My parents were tested for the Tay-Sachs gene when I was a newborn - and got the scare of their lives when they found out that they were both carriers. Imagine getting a call and finding out that there is a 1 in 4 chance that your healthy new baby actually has a disease with no cure or treatment that will cause them to show symptoms around 6 mos and slowly get worse until they die before their 5th birthday. Anyway, the mass screenings in the community reduced incidence of Tay Sachs disease by 90-95%. Since I always knew the facts about the disease and what it means to be a carrier, it was never a source of stigma in my home. We just knew we needed to get tested.

I figured it might be popular in the non-Chabad community, but the only people I know who used it were Chabad. Thanks for the info. How scary for your parents! I'm glad it wasn't a source of stigma. We'll get tested before we start having kids.

[salex]

These people take all of the fun and romance out of marriage. Whatever happened to two people both having feelings for eachother, then deciding they want to start a relationship, then marry. Not all this paperwork and million page questionnaire before you are even considered good enough.

Found this marriage contract that is put out as an example of a marriage contract. It sounds like some kind of Christian MRA anti-government stuff,it states

9.That the New King James Version of the Bible, their common faith in a Christian God, and the Family Constitution they have both been given a copy of, shall be the ultimate authority, reference, and arbiter for modeling normal and proper relationships and conduct between the parties and their prospective family and these will be the reference point at all times in the event of any dispute.

It also disallows child support or alimony or division of property in case of a divorce.

famguardian.org/TaxFreedom/Forms/Marriage/MarriageContractWOLicense.htm

I"ve not yet read the family constitution... and may not, because I am starting to believe reading too much nasty crap (Lori and ken and cabinetman, etc) is putting a bad vibe in my life.

[Jinger_Cat]

From her "Feminine Modesty Monday" photos, she looks to be a decent seamstress. Why does she leave the hems of all her skirts freyed? Is this some sort of fundie trend? :?

[uber frau]

It's her take on the Jewish tzitzit.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzit

[2xx1xy1JD]

These people take all of the fun and romance out of marriage. Whatever happened to two people both having feelings for eachother, then deciding they want to start a relationship, then marry. Not all this paperwork and million page questionnaire before you are even considered good enough.

The idea, in theory, is that if you start with feelings first, you can easily fall for Mr. Wrong - someone who doesn't share your basic values or goals. Then, once you already have strong feelings for that person, your judgment isn't the best and you may be willing to overlook really important problems just because you are in love and desperate for things to work out.

In the real world, most people I know do a balance. They will tend to be more attracted to someone as a potential spouse if that person shares the same basic religious background, goals, values, interests, etc. but basic attraction and compatibility are also required from the get-go.

[alba]

The idea, in theory, is that if you start with feelings first, you can easily fall for Mr. Wrong - someone who doesn't share your basic values or goals. Then, once you already have strong feelings for that person, your judgment isn't the best and you may be willing to overlook really important problems just because you are in love and desperate for things to work out.

In the real world, most people I know do a balance. They will tend to be more attracted to someone as a potential spouse if that person shares the same basic religious background, goals, values, interests, etc. but basic attraction and compatibility are also required from the get-go.

You know, this is why I told my fiancé within about a week that I don't want kids, because I figured it would be far less painful to break up there and then than to continue with a relationship that would, sooner or later, make one or both of us terribly unhappy.

So, yes, I do believe it's worth discussing any dealbreakers early on in the relationship. However, I think that bringing up uncompromisable issues after developing an attraction and beginning a relationship is entirely different from a huge questionnaire before even considering a relationship.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If something would be a 100% deal-breaker, and if you think that there's a decent chance that random cute dude may not see eye to eye with you on the deal breaker issue, it might make sense to screen for it from the get-go.

I know people who do this, either online or when getting set up by a friend. For example, my divorced friends know that their kids are part of the package, and can't even consider anyone (other than a fun 1-night fling) who isn't local or who wouldn't be good step-parent material. They tend to look for partners among other single/divorced parents.

I could understand if someone who was 100% sure that the wanted to be child-free forever did something similar, and maybe indicated child-free preference in an online profile, socialized with others at child-free organizations, or looked for clues that someone may not want kids in their future.

[moodygirl86]

You know, this is why I told my fiancé within about a week that I don't want kids, because I figured it would be far less painful to break up there and then than to continue with a relationship that would, sooner or later, make one or both of us terribly unhappy.

So, yes, I do believe it's worth discussing any dealbreakers early on in the relationship. However, I think that bringing up uncompromisable issues after developing an attraction and beginning a relationship is entirely different from a huge questionnaire before even considering a relationship.

Alba, I wish everyone was as straightforward as you! My friend Y does want kids, and she broke up with her fiance last year because he had only just told her he didn't. She's in her early 30s and had been going out with him since they were both still at school, so she was obviously really gutted, feeling like the relationship had been based on a lie. Her bloke should have just been honest about it from the get go, and I wanted to batter him for stringing her along. Thank you for not putting someone else through that.

[Lisa]

Holy crap, that is one of the saddest, most delusional blogs I've seen in ages, and it goes on my binge-read list immediately. She calls everyone "girls" despite her undeniable physical maturity (I'm trying to be nice, here). Those sad little blue ribbons! The bizarre appropriation of Judaism! The way she's relying entirely on her fantasy to keep going in life. What an utterly fascinating shit show. :o