Ordain Women leader facing possible excommunication MERGE

[ADoyle90815]

Kate Kelly, the leader of the Ordain Women movement and John Dellin are facing possible excommunication from the Mormon/LDS church. I had a feeling the leaders would eventually do this at some point.

 

Not breaking since it is the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/us/tw ... .html?_r=1

[MrsFoxx]

This makes me so sad.

[Rachel333]

Why can't they realize that they need to keep the people who still want to be in the church despite its flaws? Hasn't John Dehlin encouraged others with unorthodox beliefs to stay in the church as well? I used to listen to the Mormon Stories podcast and while they did have a lot of ex-Mormons on I don't remember it being especially hostile to the church.

[Jessica]

For supposedly having the answers to all of life's questions, they sure get defensive when anyone questions anything!

[DGayle]

I was softening toward the LDS church. Now I'm firmy back in the Fuck the LDS camp.

[dawbs]

I followed down the rabbithole of LDS stuff yesterday. being knowledgeable will make the baptism I have to attend for a family member that much more awkward :lol:

The whole 'oh, uh, we decided to do this after you moved, for our convenience' is an extra layer of BS.

The whole 'you can have opinions,you just can't express them" isn't much nicer.

[Hane]

Kate Kelly is in pain because doing what the church is demanding of her will force her to be less than her authentic self. I faced the same thing when I decided to leave Catholicism, but was in no danger of my family and friends' publicly hanging me up to dry. I feel horrible for these two brave people and their families.

[flojo]

I followed down the rabbithole of LDS stuff yesterday. being knowledgeable will make the baptism I have to attend for a family member that much more awkward :lol:

The whole 'oh, uh, we decided to do this after you moved, for our convenience' is an extra layer of BS.

The whole 'you can have opinions,you just can't express them" isn't much nicer.

It's also looking at who they are being brought before. Because he is a male, John Dellan is going before much higher authorities than Kate Kelly.

[mirele]

It's also looking at who they are being brought before. Because he is a male, John Dellan is going before much higher authorities than Kate Kelly.

And John Dehlin's stake president talked to John this weekend and is kinda sorta backing off. As far as we know, Kate's former bishop in Virginia is still proceeding with being an asshat and trying her in absentia. Yeah, I went there. I know John and I have friends who work with Kate in Ordain Women. I keep expecting one of them (a very grandmotherly-looking lawyer) to get called in at any moment.

What really gets me is the absolute vitriol being heaped on Kate. All she's asking for is the leadership to ask God if women can be ordained. That's all. That's it. But you'd think she'd asked for Satan to be admitted to the Temple from the way a lot of people are reacting.

The one good thing coming out of this is that the Mormon Moment is well and truly over. Mitt Romney won't run in 2016 because he'd have to explain why his church leadership are such asshats.

[bumblebee]

The one good thing coming out of this is that the Mormon Moment is well and truly over. Mitt Romney won't run in 2016 because he'd have to explain why his church leadership are such asshats

It's not going to look great for any Mormon candidates but its not like Catholic candidates have to answer many pointed questions about women priests, celibacy or abuse by priests these days. There are still a lot of various religious denominations who are actively denying ordaining women. Although Mormonism is still more controversial, partly because its much newer and less widespread.

[uber frau]

I am no fan of Catholicism but they dropped 'apostasy' from the list of excommunicated sins a fair while ago. Catholicism is ab much broader church, despite what the Benedicts of this world might want to think.

And I agree that one of the reasons Mitt Romney got so many questions was because Mormonism is an outsider religion in some ways, but I think the other thing is that the RCC is very much a hierarchical organization with a very clear divide between the clergy and the laity. The CODJCOLDS is also very hierarchical in some ways, but they are very proud of the fact that their clergy are not professional and unpaid. And Mitt Romney made it his business to make sure everyone knew he had served as a representative of his church in the past.

[freedomjesusfootball]

www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/us/Kate-Kell ... .html?_r=0

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormon Church is formally known, depends on women to hold many leadership roles, but does not ordain women to its lay priesthood or as bishops because, it says, Jesus had only male apostles.

Bishop Mark Harrison informed Ms. Kelly by email that she had been excommunicated “for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church,†according to a partial text of the decision shared by an Ordain Women spokeswoman.

The bishop said in the email that Ms. Kelly may not take the sacrament, hold a voluntary position or give a talk in the church, vote for church offices, contribute tithes or wear the sacred Mormon undergarments."

I wonder what kind of backlash this will create.

[flojo]

I'm sad for her, but really interested in what will happen next. I'm not Mormon, but my husband was raised Mormon and we live with some of his family members who are. We have been following OW for a while now. I am interested to see how the church PR department handles this..

[ADoyle90815]

I feel bad for her, but I'm also interested to see what happens next, if this is the beginning of a purge of feminists and gay rights supporters.

[It'sFunToRun]

The bishop said in the email that Ms. Kelly may not take the sacrament, hold a voluntary position or give a talk in the church, vote for church offices, contribute tithes or wear the sacred Mormon undergarments."

Like, who's gonna stop her? :D

[It'sFunToRun]

I sincerely hope that she does not crawl back to them and instead finds a different, more hospitable open-minded church and gets a leadership position there.

I see women, gays, and the ones who love them leaving the church over this, and the church slowly falling away despite the fact the Mormons usually have a lot of kids. If it's not an option to be Mormon-lite, many people won't stay around.

[Firiel]

I feel so bad for her. Being rejected by your faith group is a terrible experience. When fundies/conservative evangelicals are disparaged or excommunicated by their specific groups, they can at least find another Christian community to become involved with if they are so inclined. They can continue practicing their religion publicly and socially. There's not the same diversity within the LDS community. If you are excommunicated from the Mormon church, you can't go and find a more liberal/progressive group in which to practice your faith.

I also wonder what the backlash would be. Is there anyway this could be the first sign of an upcoming schism within the LDS church?

[Hane]

I feel so bad for her. Being rejected by your faith group is a terrible experience. When fundies/conservative evangelicals are disparaged or excommunicated by their specific groups, they can at least find another Christian community to become involved with if they are so inclined. They can continue practicing their religion publicly and socially. There's not the same diversity within the LDS community. If you are excommunicated from the Mormon church, you can't go and find a more liberal/progressive group in which to practice your faith.

I also wonder what the backlash would be. Is there anyway this could be the first sign of an upcoming schism within the LDS church?

There's the Community of Christ, a more liberal church with Mormon roots, in which women hold the priesthood--but it may not fulfill her spiritual needs the way her church of origin did. (I know a transwoman who revisited her Roman Catholic church after her transition, and it was a wrenching experience for her.)

[snark] And, oh, poor woman--she will no longer have the honor and privilege of wearing synthetic long johns and coughing up 10% of her gross income. [/snark]

[Firiel]

There's the Community of Christ, a more liberal church with Mormon roots, in which women hold the priesthood--but it may not fulfill her spiritual needs the way her church of origin did. (I know a transwoman who revisited her Roman Catholic church after her transition, and it was a wrenching experience for her.)

[snark] And, oh, poor woman--she will no longer have the honor and privilege of wearing synthetic long johns and coughing up 10% of her gross income. [/snark]

Interesting! Thanks for referring me to the Community of Christ. I had never heard of it and will now go find things out. I laughed at your snark. I'm Christian and tithe, and I was literally just commiserating with my LDS roommate and her LDS boyfriend about how much of a pain tithing can be. When I read the article about her excommunication, my first impulse was to go to my roommate and say, "Hey, B! I figured out a way you can stop tithing! Just get excommunicated!"

[nokidsmom]

Interesting! Thanks for referring me to the Community of Christ. I had never heard of it and will now go find things out. I laughed at your snark. I'm Christian and tithe, and I was literally just commiserating with my LDS roommate and her LDS boyfriend about how much of a pain tithing can be. When I read the article about her excommunication, my first impulse was to go to my roommate and say, "Hey, B! I figured out a way you can stop tithing! Just get excommunicated!"

Just ditching the sacred underwear should be a relief in itself. I understand about people having their symbols of faith but that's one I simply do not get.

[Rachel333]

I can understand how someone might feel the garments offer a sort of spiritual protection and would have a hard time giving them up. I definitely don't envy the women who wear them, though; at least men's look like regular underwear.

I really think this is going to hurt the LDS church in the long run. There are a lot of progressive Mormons and this is showing them they are not welcome in the church. If they want to keep their members they can't keep kicking people out. John Dehlin in particular has encouraged a lot Mormons with less orthodox views to stay but look how they're treating him.

[It'sFunToRun]

For the too lazy to google, here is what Mormon undergarments look like:

[Rachel333]

I actually do think that if the LDS church survives, they will eventually give the priesthood to women and start accepting gay people. A lot of opinions on gay rights in particular have shifted very quickly in the last decade even among Mormons.

I don't think a church run solely by old white men (to be fair, I think I do recall seeing an African man speak at conference before) is going to be quick to embrace change, though, so it might take a few more generations.

[Firiel]

I can understand how someone might feel the garments offer a sort of spiritual protection and would have a hard time giving them up. I definitely don't envy the women who wear them, though; at least men's look like regular underwear.

Even just physically, if you've worn them for years, it could be very disconcerting and uncomfortable to go without them, at least in public. I imagine it would feel a bit like walking around naked.

But, ugh, I also don't envy women who have to wear them. One of the main reasons my roommate has never been endowed (I think that's the right word) is because she doesn't want to wear them, even though she can't go into the temple until she has.

Also. Wow. Just Googled garments to see what they look like, and the images that appear on Google seem to suggest that there would be quite a large cache of garment porn were I so inclined...

[It'sFunToRun]

Even just physically, if you've worn them for years, it could be very disconcerting and uncomfortable to go without them, at least in public. I imagine it would feel a bit like walking around naked.

Agreed.

One of the main reasons my roommate has never been endowed (I think that's the right word) is because she doesn't want to wear them, even though she can't go into the temple until she has.

Haha, I first read that as your roommate has small boobage because she doesn't wear Mormon undergarments :lol:

Also. Wow. Just Googled garments to see what they look like, and the images that appear on Google seem to suggest that there would be quite a large cache of garment porn were I so inclined...

Yep, I saw those too. Pretty kinky.