Josiah and the Arm Twist

[Mama Mia]

You're right about this, but I think that reconciling the fear or pain of a mother's medical problems will generally outweigh the promise of a relationship with a person they don't know. It's the same reason people are way more likely to donate money to a suffering person in their county than some faceless person overseas. It's hard to cling to the idea that the potential future baby (already in a totally different generation than you) could end up being your BFF, when you're considering the loss or compromise of health to a person you already know and love. And regardless of how much individual time the parents spend with their kids in this family, I think those children absolutely love their parents and are desperate for attention from them.

I would agree if Michelle usually had difficult pregnancies and every new baby meant a huge scare like they had with Josie, especially if they were a small family? But since most of her pregnancies went relatively smoothly, and she was pregnant almost all the time, I would think most of them probably though of Josie's Birth as a one time aberration, and would look forward to a new birth without all that scariness, particularly the older girls who would realize it was likely to be one of her last pregnancies. I think it's more likely the younger kids who might resent the attention a new baby brings. They are 19 individual people who will each have their own distinct reactions on news of a new sibling based on their own personality, age, birth order, who close they are to their mom etc...but babies are very valued in their world so I would think most of them would be happy.

[mebeforee]

But the near loss of not only a baby but the mother of a family is a traumatic incident. I somehow doubt that the kids in this family were given an opportunity to process their feelings, including the boys. At least the girls are given license to cry about it. The boys can't even do that, and Josiah has always seemed sensitive. And the boys don't care for the babies... Josiah would have had no more intimate a relationship with Jubilee than he had with Josie or Jordyn or Jennifer, so I don't know that he'd see a future sibling as reward enough to risk his mom's life. But he was the one boy who went along with Joy and some of the older girls to see Josie in the hospital after that initial trip, so he might have compassion for the new babies or he might be extra sensitive to the idea of a fragile, ill newborn after seeing how long it took her to recover. The worldview of 'more babies = better life' isn't necessarily held by all the kids growing up in this system... if it were, things like homeschoolersanonymous and NLQ wouldn't exist.

edited for clarity

[Mama Mia]

I agree that Josiah does seem, at least on camera, as more sensitive than many of his siblings. But I think his being the only older boy to visit Josie repeatedly was likely more a matter of practicality. JD and Joseph stayed back at the main house while the rest of the family was in Little Rock, and the other boys were likely too young for regular visits.

I'm not saying they were all overjoyed at the thought of a new sibling, just that seeing Michele have one terrifying pregnancy and birth likely had less of an impact on their perceptions given they had seen a dozen other relatively easy pregnancies with healthy babies, than in a more average size family where if an older child had gone through an experience like what happened with Josie it would probably be his only experience of pregnancy/birth and make him more scared that it would be repeated.

[roddma]

The phone call thing seems logical since they are taught to believe all babies are blessings. He had one of those moments and jumped out of the shot excited. Then Boob got upset because he interrupted the whole thing. I don't think there was an arm twist either, but words exchanged On the other hand,some didn't look to happy at the announcement of Jordyn. None of them ran off the set.

[Trynn]

Josiah May have seen a dozen successful pregnancies, but he is also old enough to understand that multiple pregnancies take a toll on the mother. He's also old enough to understand that Michelle is getting to the age where pregnancies are risky. I could very well believe he was upset on some level that Michelle was having a baby after the Josie incident which could've killed her.

I also believe he could've been excited and upset at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. I could believe he went off camera to pull himself together. I could believe JB yelled at him for it.

That having been said: I don't believe the arm twist happened.

Honestly, this is just the sin in he camp thing all over again: an internet rumor that just needs to die.

[cindyluvs24]

Heaven forbid they shoot the scene without Josiah. A real father would have told the camera crew to just continue the scene. There were so many people there, it's not like he would be missed. We shouldn't be surprised at Jim Bob's reaction. Remember: This is a man who wheeled his dying father into the dining room IN A FREAKIN OFFICE CHAIR WITH HIS SLIPPERS FALLING OFF in order to "celebrate" his birthday for the cameras. :pull-hair:

[neuroticcat]

The phone call thing seems logical since they are taught to believe all babies are blessings. He had one of those moments and jumped out of the shot excited. Then Boob got upset because he interrupted the whole thing. I don't think there was an arm twist either, but words exchanged On the other hand,some didn't look to happy at the announcement of Jordyn. None of them ran off the set.

But if I remember right on another baby announcement (Josie maybe? It was when they were doing that huge slip-and-slide thing on the lawn) one of the kids raced off to be the first to call Josh and tell him.

[for_the_Kitties]

But if I remember right on another baby announcement (Josie maybe? It was when they were doing that huge slip-and-slide thing on the lawn) one of the kids raced off to be the first to call Josh and tell him.

yep. both instances seem to be a "race to the phone" game. And Josiah was scolded for trying to call someone. Joy got away with it because they weren't in the middle of a family photo.

[artdecades]

The episode is on TLC right now (I think, its the Q&A ep where Michelle pretends to actually do things) on the west coast. I am going to keep a keen eye out for it

[artdecades]

Ok. So rewatching I don't think Jana said "Josiah don't cry". She was smiling and saying it cheerfully and that isn't the way she would act if she was trying to comfort him. In fact, I am not even sure she said "don't" and while she did make a hard C sound, it sounded like it was in the middle of a word/phrase and not the start of it.

Josiah doesn't look very upset, just a little. He keeps itching his left arm and elbow. Jim Bob could have grabbed him, or not. I am certain that this is evidence of anything going down. While I can imagine something like that happening, I think people are reading into it.

[mebeforee]

But if I remember right on another baby announcement (Josie maybe? It was when they were doing that huge slip-and-slide thing on the lawn) one of the kids raced off to be the first to call Josh and tell him.

Yeah, when Michelle was pregnant with Josie, they were doing the huge slip-and-slide. JB went to call Josh and discovered that Joy had already told him, and kind of laughed about it at the time. But neither the parents nor the audience realized she had stepped off to call anyone, which makes the situation slightly different from the one with Josiah. I think it's the way they cut the episode that calls extra attention to the fact that Josiah left (the opposite of what they intended, I'm sure). Walking away from a planned (and filmed) family photo is a little different from taking a few minutes away from your slip-and-slide time. In rewatching and looking at the pictures posted here, I don't think Josiah's unhappiness is as significant as I used to think, but I still don't understand why he'd walk out of a family picture like that. I wonder about it. But I think most speculation about it tends to feed right into the things people HOPE the kids in this family feel, rather than what their actual experience may be.

[mebeforee]

And that situation may also be different because at that time, Josh and Anna were already married and living elsewhere. When the announcement for Jubilee came, Josh and Anna (and Grandma Duggar, too) were actually in the house with the other J siblings. Maybe Josiah wanted to call the Bates or some other family that is close with them, but it's hard to imagine that the impulse to share the news would be that great for someone outside of the immediate family.

[halcionne]

Out of curiosity, and in the interest of accuracy, I went back and looked up FJ comments regarding all of this at the time of original airing. TLC did the "snapshot" editing technique from the first run. Just carrying on the "let's take a family picture" gag, I suppose. :roll: I really dislike the Duggars' sense of humor.

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=4645&hilit=josiah&start=660#p108402

Josiah's departure first comes up on page 34, but not in detail until page 36.

[ljohnson2006]

One of the girls definitely said " 'Siah don't cry".

[mebeforee]

I never thought it was that clear. I hear "Siah, don't (something)... ", but the last word is hard to hear because of all the people talking at the same time. It could be 'cry', but I don't think it was definitely that.

[HarleyQuinn]

*first time poster, long time lurker*

I think the idea that Josiah ran off to phone some one is pretty weak. Who was he going to call? His entire family was there. I don' know if an arm twist happened, but I do think he was upset and ran off, and I do think Boob probably made him get right back in that picture.

[Mitz_]

As far as I can tell the infamous arm twist was first commented on by my favorite poster, and probably yours...Buzzard. Way back somewhere in a thread titled †Duggar parenting fail" (or something like that). Buzzard made a comment about the "20th" announcement where the arm twist took place and it just took off from there, making its way into several threads and finally into a thread of its own. I doubt she is even aware of it since she has been so sick and all.

It's just so funny since it was so long ago and no one ever saw an arm twist , but we all know what happened in those missing frames! Can't slip anything past FJ, ya know.

Way to go Buzzard, and thanks for the laugh! My money is on Josiah (if they ever let him out of that camp) to give the whole "lifestyle" the heave-ho and make boob think twice about that arm twist.

[Dandruff]

They're showing some older reruns today and this episode was on. I watched carefully. Josiah looked happy when smiling for the photo and still had a smile on when Jim Bob made the pregnancy announcement re. Jubilee, and he (Josiah) was then seen moving away from the group. When he was next shown, he looked visibly upset and face flushed - as though he had been crying - and he was holding his arm and limp hand up in front of him. Arm was shaking. Jim Bob was right next to him.

I know there are a variety of perceptions and opinions on this topic but this is mine: Josiah looked like he was in severe, physical, pain. I don't think he just bumped into something on the way to the bathroom or wherever.

The next episode was the one where they had a surprise party for Amy and brought in clowns (which terrify her). One of the boys gleefully remarked that Amy went running up the stairs and looked like she was going to faint.

Lovely.

[CorruptionInc.]

They're showing some older reruns today and this episode was on. I watched carefully. Josiah looked happy when smiling for the photo and still had a smile on when Jim Bob made the pregnancy announcement re. Jubilee, and he (Josiah) was then seen moving away from the group. When he was next shown, he looked visibly upset and face flushed - as though he had been crying - and he was holding his arm and limp hand up in front of him. Arm was shaking. Jim Bob was right next to him.

I know there are a variety of perceptions and opinions on this topic but this is mine: Josiah looked like he was in severe, physical, pain. I don't think he just bumped into something on the way to the bathroom or wherever.

The next episode was the one where they had a surprise party for Amy and brought in clowns (which terrify her). One of the boys gleefully remarked that Amy went running up the stairs and looked like she was going to faint.

Lovely.

I would say Josiah is a more thoughtful, soulful type of man and the fact that his mother was pregnant again worried him. We may not know why (risks, or just too many children) but I doubt he was full of contempt for his mum. Boob probably got mad at him for not keeping sweet without allowing him to explain why he was rightfully upset. Then he probably grabbed him to get back in the photo and shut up for the moment. Jana, Joyless and Jinger probably had concern for how he was feeling at the time, but knew the moment was all about Mullet. Well it always is, but they are well trained.

[toejamflipflop]

OMG I was just thinking about starting a post about this. That episode of the Duggars was on TV this afternoon and Josiah was very upset and holding his arm. The look on that kids face was disturbing to say the least. It is clear Jim Bob must have done something to the boy to make him so upset. In the last frame of him it showed him rubbing his arm . I hope some day Josiah comes clean and write a book about the abuse he suffered at the hands of his father and his mother.

[shard1118]

After reading this thread I went and watched this episode on Netflix. I am now perplexed at people's take on how Josiah reacted to the announcement. I had a completely different interpretation of his facial expression. To me he looked excited and happy.

This is a screenshot from right when the announcement is made. I know people read faces differently, but seriously, he looks happy to me. I just can't see "upset" or "about to be sick" at all. (Jackson's face, on the other hand, is a different story. lol.)

When he ran off it was more of a bounding jump. Like he was barely able to contain his excitement (and ran off to call someone to tell them the news, judging by how you could clearly hear a sister say "Siah, don't call..." ) Obviously they would not want too many other people to know about the pregnancy yet or it might spread to the internet/media. Gotta save that announcement for the Today Show! So that's why you hear some of the other's calling to Josiah to stop (not make the phone call.)

They ONLY scene where he doesn't look especially happy is this one.

But I don't think his face necessarily looks upset. It looks just as much like a blank stare. Like he is zoning out because Jim Bob is giving one of his droning "Hey, guys..." speeches. As for the T-rex arm position, if you watch the footage of that scene, he is clearly scratching the inside of his arm with his other hand. It is a scratching motion not a rubbing motion (as if it was sore from being twisted.)

In a few other scenes both before and after the announcement he is shown scratching that same arm. My best guess is he had a mosquito bite or something.

And in other scenes it looks like whatever he is holding in his hand is not a tissue. It looks like something made of cardboard like a card or small box.

I would not be surprised if the Duggar children (especially the older ones) have experienced some level physical abuse considering their parents followed the Pearl's discipline methods. But in this case I think the whole "Josiah arm twist" thing is just a huge stretch of speculation. Of course, that's just my take. It is interesting to see how people interpret things differently.

Looks like a band-aid as if he had blood work or something

[JenniferJuniper]

There is no evidence that proves an arm twist or other injury was inflicted upon him.

There is no film or photographic evidence of him happily bounding away after the announcement.

There IS evidence that he immediately left the scene after that first smile. In their editing, TLC abruptly stopped the film and went to still photos and this coincided precisely with Josiah leaving the scene. There is also auditory evidence of his siblings calling to him, and some appear to be concerned, looking past the cameras presumably to wherever Josiah went.

Considering the editing changed as soon as Josiah left the scene, there is a very good likelihood this was some sort of cover-up. They couldn't reenact the scene with so many little kids involved, but they didn't want it obvious that one of the older kids had bolted.

Make of it what you will, but it's no more or less complicated than that. My own guess is that he was upset with the announcement (duh, wonder why) and opted to get out of camera range rather than be seen without a joyful countenance by all the world. Then again, maybe he just wanted to "jump for joy" in the kitchen.

[SPHASH]

The look on Joshiah's face when it was announced was like "your kidding, right?" And when reality sunk in Josiah got upset.

[Quiverfullofit]

I would say Josiah is a more thoughtful, soulful type of man and the fact that his mother was pregnant again worried him. We may not know why (risks, or just too many children) but I doubt he was full of contempt for his mum. Boob probably got mad at him for not keeping sweet without allowing him to explain why he was rightfully upset. Then he probably grabbed him to get back in the photo and shut up for the moment. Jana, Joyless and Jinger probably had concern for how he was feeling at the time, but knew the moment was all about Mullet. Well it always is, but they are well trained.

Do the boys need to keep sweet? I thought since 'boys will be boys' they basically had free reign.

[CorruptionInc.]

Do the boys need to keep sweet? I thought since 'boys will be boys' they basically had free reign.

I think the idea is to have all the boys like Smug... :ew: