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Josiah and the Arm Twist


roddma

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I often rub my arm like that when I've been crying. It's a... Self soothe thing I guess?

I think the arm twist is POSSIBLE, but I also think it's a bit of a stretch.

Also, if Josiah was crying, a tissue makes perfect sense.

Sure Josiah COULD have left the frame because he was sick, by I also don't think it's a huge logic jump to believe he was upset.

Because news like hat, after what happened last time? IS upsetting.

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What's most suspicious to me is how TLC edited that take. They dont edit kids vomiting or kids having potty accidents or women having babies on the potty. They do edit all episodes of Duggar discipline beyond a few sweet but disapproving words. We know that the Duggars use spanking, but, thank goodness, we've never seen that once in over ten years. Now I definitely think Josiah was to old to spank, but I wouldn't be surprised over an arm twist, or even just harsh words that TLC needed to edit away.

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Yeah, it's pretty bad. I actually have caps from the family photo that JB tried to orchestrate, too...

josiah1.pngjosiah3.png

(These are the first and third that the show presented in a 'snapshot' sort of way. The second one makes it clear that Josiah really sped off screen, judging by where all the others are standing, but I think the third one is more interesting because of the way Joy is looking away from the action. They've always seemed close and I think she probably would be the most likely one to notice and wonder what he was doing)

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After reading this thread I went and watched this episode on Netflix. I am now perplexed at people's take on how Josiah reacted to the announcement. I had a completely different interpretation of his facial expression. To me he looked excited and happy.

image_zps5056381a.jpg

This is a screenshot from right when the announcement is made. I know people read faces differently, but seriously, he looks happy to me. I just can't see "upset" or "about to be sick" at all. (Jackson's face, on the other hand, is a different story. lol.)

When he ran off it was more of a bounding jump. Like he was barely able to contain his excitement (and ran off to call someone to tell them the news, judging by how you could clearly hear a sister say "Siah, don't call..." ) Obviously they would not want too many other people to know about the pregnancy yet or it might spread to the internet/media. Gotta save that announcement for the Today Show! So that's why you hear some of the other's calling to Josiah to stop (not make the phone call.)

They ONLY scene where he doesn't look especially happy is this one.

image_zps61cada82.jpg

But I don't think his face necessarily looks upset. It looks just as much like a blank stare. Like he is zoning out because Jim Bob is giving one of his droning "Hey, guys..." speeches. As for the T-rex arm position, if you watch the footage of that scene, he is clearly scratching the inside of his arm with his other hand. It is a scratching motion not a rubbing motion (as if it was sore from being twisted.)

image_zps5d0ecb36.jpg

In a few other scenes both before and after the announcement he is shown scratching that same arm. My best guess is he had a mosquito bite or something.

And in other scenes it looks like whatever he is holding in his hand is not a tissue. It looks like something made of cardboard like a card or small box.

I would not be surprised if the Duggar children (especially the older ones) have experienced some level physical abuse considering their parents followed the Pearl's discipline methods. But in this case I think the whole "Josiah arm twist" thing is just a huge stretch of speculation. Of course, that's just my take. It is interesting to see how people interpret things differently.

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A good post, batuityma. That brings a new perspective to the alleged incident. I don't know what to believe what happened, but it's good to see other points of view.

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I'm not seeing happiness on Josiah' face. I'm not seeing deep sorrow either, but he's smiling for the cameras like he's been trained. And he left a split second later.

I don't think he would ever leave a shoot to tell or call someone. First, who would he contact? Amy? The neighbors? Nearly everyone he was closely associated with then was in the room with him.

Secondly, Josiah has been living with the on-camera rules since he was 7 or 8 years old. He knows better then to bound out of a scene for any reason, especially in a big gathering like this. If you watch the actual scene you can see some of his siblings are clearly concerned when he leaves; others are calling to him, almost in a consoling manner.

Bottom line - there is no evidence that Josiah was hurt, so the arm twist is total speculation with little factual basis. But I also think it's highly unlikely that he left because he was suddenly sick or couldn't contain his joy.

We only saw the Josie situation through the lens of Reality TV. These kids actually lived it. Josiah is said to be a sensitive kid and he may have been terrified of his mother dying. Just seeing such a tiny baby must have been very scary for the kids. And finally, they had their lives completely disrupted for many months, with even less contact with their parents than usual. I'm sure it was a very difficult time for anyone older than James.

So someone having a visceral "enough is enough!" reaction makes the most sense to me. If he did leave the scene because he couldn't keep sweet, I'm sure he was reprimanded or lectured or sent to the prayer closet later. But we have no reason to assume Jim Bob injured him or even dragged him back when the cameras were still rolling.

He was there, he left, and he came to the group at some point. That's all we know for sure.

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It's really nice to see caps of that scene that are actually good quality, thanks for that! I actually think his smile looks fairly genuine, but when I watched it it seemed like that was a lingering smile while he processed the news. It may also be that after so many pregnancies, his initial reaction was happiness and then the doubt and fear could have come in, but I don't know. We really haven't seen enough to tell, and whatever we do see is always edited, so. And I think you're right that it's not a tissue, it looks too solid. I also can see in the better quality pictures that he's holding it before the announcement, so he didn't run off and pick it up somewhere else, it just happened to be in his hand already.

I still think he looks fairly unhappy in the next shot where Jim Bob has his hand on his shoulder, and I also think that it's very unusual for one of the family to leave the cameras that way - especially in a moment that his father has clearly staged for the show. This was a huge announcement for the family and I can't believe he would think it was appropriate to leave, if he was thinking clearly.

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And OMG, Jackson's face. I love that kid. Joseph also seems a a little hesitant to smile, doesn't he?

As for Josiah, I think part of the curiosity is that his behavior has changed... He really used to be the voice of the family, because he was smart and funny (and spoke clearly enough :roll: ), so he used to do the voice-over stuff at the beginning of episodes, and always seemed to have something to say about what was going on. He's withdrawn as he's gotten older (and I don't blame him), I think that change is the reason people are inclined to speculate about him. Perhaps he's become less enthusiastic about their lifestyle and doesn't want to talk about it, or isn't giving the kind of responses his parents would like from him - but he's also become a teenager, and becoming more independent or feeling a little bit separate from the rest of your family is normal too. Since we're just looking through the lens of the show it's impossible to know, but he used to be so prominent that I think people naturally have some curiosity when his presence diminished like that.

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I finally got around to watching this episode and looking for Josiah's reaction. It does seem odd, but I don't think there is enough out there now to make any conclusions.

One thing that did stick out was Grandma Duggar's tight lipped reaction to the news. Everyone is happy and smiling, and Grandma Duggar is very tight lipped.

I cannot believe how genuinely happy the older girls seem. It is weird.

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I finally got around to watching this episode and looking for Josiah's reaction. It does seem odd, but I don't think there is enough out there now to make any conclusions.

One thing that did stick out was Grandma Duggar's tight lipped reaction to the news. Everyone is happy and smiling, and Grandma Duggar is very tight lipped.

I cannot believe how genuinely happy the older girls seem. It is weird.

Maybe Michelle is easier to deal with when she's pregnant. I have to imagine living with her when she's not pregnant but frantic and desperate to be so would be migraine inducing.

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Maybe Michelle is easier to deal with when she's pregnant. I have to imagine living with her when she's not pregnant but frantic and desperate to be so would be migraine inducing.

I was thinking something along those lines. We don't know what went on in that house. Maybe when moose-hell is in her last trimester she lays of on supervising the girls. Maybe when Moose-hell was in the hospital with Josie, the girls were able to get a few days of unsupervised internet, or even something as simple as having conversations that they wouldn't be comfortable having if they knew their parents were in the house.

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What is the name of that episode?

I think it's amusing reading all the speculation about the incident. I know my mom used to grab my arm all the time, and I would probably pretend to make it seem more dramatic than it actually was, so I dont think the arm grabbing is thaaaat huge of a deal. However, for a kid who grew up in front of the cameras, it is a bit odd that he would run out of the room.

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I was thinking something along those lines. We don't know what went on in that house. Maybe when moose-hell is in her last trimester she lays of on supervising the girls. Maybe when Moose-hell was in the hospital with Josie, the girls were able to get a few days of unsupervised internet, or even something as simple as having conversations that they wouldn't be comfortable having if they knew their parents were in the house.

I think the Duggar girls know what's expected from them. So they will smile and appear happy if they are on tv.

And also, I can imagine how the time J'Chelle was busy at the hospital wasn't a bad time for the girls. Sure, they had a lot going on with moving and stuff. But they also (hopefully) had a bit more freedom with J'Chelle out of the house. Its sad, but it seems to me as if J'Chelle in the house is actually a burden for those girls, and not a help. Cause it's not like she will parents her own kids, but "supervise" the girls and probably make their life even harder as it already is.

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I disagree. It's hard to tell anything from photos, but the video is super telling.

They were taking a picture, JB had the camera, and when he was taking the pictures he said "Mom's going to have another baby!" instead of "say cheese". So yes, Josiah was smiling because he was having his picture taken. And in the video you can see that smile rapidly fall off his face before he bolts. I think he was horrified.

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I think so too, Optogirl. I mean, I do think in those first screencaps he looks like he's genuinely happy. But once the announcement happens you kind of lose sight of him (even though, logically, there was a camera right on his face that could have caught his expression just moments later) and we're left with these pictures from the side that try to disguise the fact that he ran out of the picture. It really seems like something happened there that they're trying to keep people from seeing. I don't know what Josiah was feeling, but it's hard not to think this was damage control. Who knows, there could have been another kid (or a couple others) that also had less-than-happy reactions that perhaps we haven't noticed because they didn't leave the photo. But his obvious absence makes him pretty conspicuous when it comes to speculation.

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TLC changed it from video to the series of stills after it aired and people talked about it. If nothing happened that was noteworthy they wouldn't have done that.

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I think the Duggar girls know what's expected from them. So they will smile and appear happy if they are on tv.

And also, I can imagine how the time J'Chelle was busy at the hospital wasn't a bad time for the girls. Sure, they had a lot going on with moving and stuff. But they also (hopefully) had a bit more freedom with J'Chelle out of the house. Its sad, but it seems to me as if J'Chelle in the house is actually a burden for those girls, and not a help. Cause it's not like she will parents her own kids, but "supervise" the girls and probably make their life even harder as it already is.

Or they could have been just genuinely happy at the thought of another baby. Yeah, Josie's birth was scary and life disrupting for all of them, but they had tons of experience with births that went smoothly. I think the parents put way too much responsibility on the older girls, but that doesn't mean they see it that way, or even if they do, that it bothers them so much that the negatives out weigh the positives of another sibling in their minds. The siblings all do seem to live each other and enjoy each other's company. I'm sure some are closer than others and that there is a lot of friction between some individuals, but that doesn't mean they don't genuinely like having new babies around.

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I'm still hoping Josiah's the first one to get the hell out of there. Seriously. He's always seemed like one of the smartest kids in the group, and from the very beginning he had an individual personality that stood out from the rest. If anyone in the family feels trapped, I think it would be him. So I can't claim to be totally unbiased here - I'm also looking for dissatisfaction for that reason. God, let this kid get the fuck out!

(It also seems like his best friend growing up was Joy [the same way Jackson's best friend is Johanna] and although they don't get a lot of time together in interviews anymore, when they do it's always delightful. [For example, Joy trying to say she's not afraid of anything and Josiah gently ribbing her about being afraid of heights. The facial expressions between them show an affectionate kind of history, imho]. I try to convince myself he'd be less sexist than some of his other siblings for having this emotional/intellectual connection with a girl that has no romantic draw.)

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The siblings all do seem to love each other and enjoy each other's company. I'm sure some are closer than others and that there is a lot of friction between some individuals, but that doesn't mean they don't genuinely like having new babies around.

You're right about this, but I think that reconciling the fear or pain of a mother's medical problems will generally outweigh the promise of a relationship with a person they don't know. It's the same reason people are way more likely to donate money to a suffering person in their county than some faceless person overseas. It's hard to cling to the idea that the potential future baby (already in a totally different generation than you) could end up being your BFF, when you're considering the loss or compromise of health to a person you already know and love. And regardless of how much individual time the parents spend with their kids in this family, I think those children absolutely love their parents and are desperate for attention from them.

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I think so too, Optogirl. I mean, I do think in those first screencaps he looks like he's genuinely happy. But once the announcement happens you kind of lose sight of him (even though, logically, there was a camera right on his face that could have caught his expression just moments later) and we're left with these pictures from the side that try to disguise the fact that he ran out of the picture. It really seems like something happened there that they're trying to keep people from seeing. I don't know what Josiah was feeling, but it's hard not to think this was damage control. Who knows, there could have been another kid (or a couple others) that also had less-than-happy reactions that perhaps we haven't noticed because they didn't leave the photo. But his obvious absence makes him pretty conspicuous when it comes to speculation.

Or maybe when he ran out of the picture he blocked the shot they were taking and it just made for awkward editing. Or he had a sneezing or coughing fit that was disruptive to the audio. Or he was upset and they wanted to give him a little space. Or they heard all the speculation and edited to try to make it look like everything went smoother than it did. Or he was super happy and wanted to run and call mystery person x who was a potential courtship that fell through for one of his older siblings? They are filming 20+ people's reaction to a major family event. I would think it was creepier if this was an actual surprise announcement and every single person stayed right on their mark with the exact same happy expression on their face.

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It would be creepier for sure, but less interesting ;)

I don't think people are saying that what Josiah did is creepy. Just like all the families discussed on this site, people are hoping for someone to break free of the crazy. So if Josiah runs off a photo shoot, people are hoping it's because he's lost his faith in the lifestyle rather than some other reason. I'm hoping this too, and I look at all the Duggar footage with the hope that someone might get out of the Gothard cult. I can't pretend I'm not looking at things from that perspective, but I try not to bend things I see to fit that model.

In looking at the good quality photos posted from this episode, I can see the situation differently. He obviously wasn't as distraught as I thought, and there was no tissue in his hand, and I personally don't think he was crying. But for me, walking out of view of the cameras is a significant thing to do. And he still looks upset to me in those later pictures, even if he's not actively weeping. We can only speculate to his reasoning behind it, but I really doubt he abandoned that photo op because he was happy.

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