10 Shraders in Zambia and counting...

[scc12]

Not me.As I said earlier,by all accounts,Esther seems to be 'on board' with missionary life,as least per John's fb,bf it went private.

But is Esther allowed to speak her mind,or is she just required to go along w her headship,even if she thinks something might endanger herself or her family?

[formergothardite]

I am not sure what you mean by his not being able to support his family or the racism that you have seen in him or that he disregards the welfare of his family. But as far as support for him by other churches, they know that support does generally go toward supporting the missionary and his family in order for them to do the work that they believe God has called them to do. And if I know John, the money will not be wasted and he will use more of it on ministry than himself unlike many missionaries I have known over the years the used "deputation" as extended vacation to every them park in the country. That is one reason when I went was a missionary (not foreign) I chose not to do deputation. I told my church my burden, and within 3 months moved 3 states away without deputation or promised support or a job. I went by faith with my family of 5 at the time and lived on our savings for 6 months and when it was gone, we had churches sending support that we never asked for. I have always felt if God wants me to do something, He will provide without me asking others. I have nothing against those who do deputation, just the ones that do it for years as a joy ride.

But as for John, he has proven that he handles funds with care and is not wasteful. His family is taken care of and happy. If God wants him in Zambia, then He will provide all the tools even if John is ill equipped for the work and lacks skills, God has a way of developing it. If God is not in it, hopefully John is able to recognize it and humbly return home and say "I was wrong".

I was just wondering where all the feeling about John on this forum come from.

What I meant by not being able to support his family here is that even before the missionary thing he had to have people pay off his house, pay off his car, and pay off his midwife bills. Without other people paying his way he would not have made it.

Racism, have you seen when he thought it was funny to act like the people in Zambia were cannibals? And his whole "I'm African inside, I just have the wrong paint." First of all that shows a shocking lack of understanding that Africa isn't one big homogenous group where all the people on that continent are exactly the same. Secondly, this is acting like people with darker skin are naturally different than people who have lighter skin. He also calls the people of Zambia a "field ripe for the harvest". This is dehumanizing and shows that he views himself as the savior is his so much better than they are coming in to tell them that they are being protestant Christian right. He doesn't view them as people. Individual people with individual thoughts and needs. Nope they are just a field he can harvest and brag about in newsletters.

As for disregarding the welfare and safety of his children, all you have to do is find the picture of the van he rigged up. He had a large fan hanging from the ceiling of the van positioned directly in front of a child in a car seat. Even a small fender bender would slam it into the face of the child. Also, there is no way that traveling about like he did provided his children with the stability to learn while being homeschooled. He has also shown that he disregards the safety of his children by taking pictures in bad weather while driving on busy roads. That is just stupid, but who cares if he kills his kids or someone else, he got a good picture for FB. :roll:

You want to tell us that John isn't selfish, this is the man who while his wife was suffering pregnancy complications made everything ALL ABOUT HIM and got people to pay for his juice fast. A fucking juice fast.

I fail to see how buying a plane before he is over there and shows he actually needs one is a being a good steward of money. Or buying a troupie. Especially since he going to a place that is made up of protestant Christians. They don't need to be converted to Christianity, they already are. They need a person who can help them with poverty. John clearly isn't that person.

[nelliebelle1197]

:feed-trolls:

It really isn't troll feeding around here. It is called "Fundie Friday (or Monday, or Tuesday....)"

[formergothardite]

Shraderfriend, have you read the Poisonwood Bible? I think it should be required reading for anyone becoming a missionary, especially a foreign missionary. It is essentially about a guy a lot like John, who had no skills to go into the mission field, but thought he could go there and tell those natives what they were doing wrong and he would "harvest" the "ripe field." He treated the people on the mission field much like John treats the people of Zambia. He treated his children like John treats his children, as props for the mission field. He treated the safety of his children as casually as John treats the safety of his.

[tkr322]

shraderfriend, I have such an issue with missionaries whose only purpose is to go over there and "win souls". I cannot understand at all why anyone would give money for people to do this. When I was growing up, my youth group would go on mission trips but we would always do something to help or better the community. Helping people fix up their homes, building a medical clinic, etc. We weren't going door to door telling people about Jesus. Sure we would pray with people who were helping us build things etc. but again, the purpose of our trip was to help provide something for these people that they were lacking and desperately needed. That to me is a real mission trip. I've always felt like if you want to tell people about Christianity, that showing them through your actions is WAY better than through words. These people in Africa need medical care, they need schools, clothes, food, etc. It makes me sick to think people like John get all this money when it could go to such a greater need if given towards something these poor people actually need.

[formergothardite]

His "mission trip" is just so silly since he is going to convert protestant Christians to be protestant Christians. It isn't like he is even trying to convert Catholics. I have been reading the earliest threads about John(trying to see if I could find a picture of how he rigged up van) and even from the very beginning posters were pointing out how John couldn't hack it at trying to support his family here in America so he went with the idea of being a missionary. And I forgot about his near constant begging for stuff. Like seriously, the early threads are all about the stuff he is begging people to give him. This guy is a grifter and he found the perfect way to never have to work, become a missionary. No boss, no accountability, and if you want something just say that God wants you to have it and you can get the sheeple to buy it for you.

[scc12]

Yes if John were a Dr,and or wanted to go over and build a clinic,school,etc,whatever to help...we could see the point with that.

Won't the troupie make him a target for traveling thieves? Not the ppl of Zambia,but ppl that might be coming thru for that purpose? I would presume it

would stand out over there?

I hope they stay safe.

[thoughtful]

I just have to say this before I post seriously, apropos of nothing -- every time I see shraderfriend's screen name, my brain wants to read it as "schadenfreude." :lol:

I am not sure what you mean by his not being able to support his family or the racism that you have seen in him or that he disregards the welfare of his family. But as far as support for him by other churches, they know that support does generally go toward supporting the missionary and his family in order for them to do the work that they believe God has called them to do. And if I know John, the money will not be wasted and he will use more of it on ministry than himself unlike many missionaries I have known over the years the used "deputation" as extended vacation to every them park in the country. That is one reason when I went was a missionary (not foreign) I chose not to do deputation. I told my church my burden, and within 3 months moved 3 states away without deputation or promised support or a job. I went by faith with my family of 5 at the time and lived on our savings for 6 months and when it was gone, we had churches sending support that we never asked for. I have always felt if God wants me to do something, He will provide without me asking others. I have nothing against those who do deputation, just the ones that do it for years as a joy ride.

But as for John, he has proven that he handles funds with care and is not wasteful. His family is taken care of and happy. If God wants him in Zambia, then He will provide all the tools even if John is ill equipped for the work and lacks skills, God has a way of developing it. If God is not in it, hopefully John is able to recognize it and humbly return home and say "I was wrong".

I was just wondering where all the feeling about John on this forum come from.

Shraderfriend, I'm glad to see you express your feelings about these things -- at least this seems honest. Before this, your posting here with such cheerful support of John, claiming you'd read even the smallest bit of this thread, seemed disingenuous, and really made you look like you were trolling (see definition below, if you haven't already looked it up somewhere online).

I think Formergothardite and others have answered your questions about why most here are very troubled by what John has been doing. He shows every sign of being a selfish, unrealistic, mess who is a danger to his family. I'll add a bit more about how his everyday demeanor, and claims of wanting to do good, are moot, to me, since you seem to feel that, if we knew him in real life, we'd feel differently.

You may have seen my post above, about understanding why people call him lazy, but pointing out that, in real life, he probably wouldn't come off as physically lazy -- that is, a person who sits still all day. I mentioned that I'd known people somewhat like that in real life.

Those people were very charming and charismatic and full of ideas for Wonderful Projects That Everyone Will Love (I capitalize to try to convey how they presented their ideas, with great enthusiasm, and as if everything they thought of already had the world's stamp of approval).

They seemed like the salt of the earth, at first, and could keep people on their side for a long time, especially if they had lots and lots of people in their "posse," each of whom was only expected to contribute a little bit of time or money.

And, they did not appear openly selfish, nor did they care much about wealth -- their projects were always, ostensibly, about helping others. But their whole lives seemed to be about being the center of attention, and jumping to the next thing when their current project got dull.

I think John is like that. If he was alone, it might not be so bad. But to pull a family into that is, I think, horrible.

I admit that missions, in general, leave me cold. People who go somewhere and do some real good for anyone in poverty -- that I can take. But the idea that Christianity needs to be spread is offensive to me. People have lives and beliefs -- leave them alone to be who they are.

On to the "troll" thing. The fact that you are on the Internet and say you don't know what a troll is . . . well, it really makes you look like you are trolling! But, just in case, here is the definition.

The idea of trolling in a discussion online comes from the image of someone fishing (for actual fish) by dragging a line with bait, often behind a boat. It is used online to mean tossing out statements or questions designed to anger others - trailing emotional "bait" to get a rise out of people. Sometimes this is done openly, more often it is done while pretending innocence, since that seems to make the experience of getting under others' skins last longer.

Over the years, the verb "trolling" got a bit lost, and people tend to just refer to the person trying to cause an argument as "a troll."

As a teacher, I have noticed that there are always some people who delight in making other people upset -- why, I will never know. Maybe it's the only form of control they can exert.

If you are not trolling, I hope my answers have helped you. If you are, I hope my answers have helped lurkers.

[formergothardite]

Apparently no one saved a copy of his van picture but I read the discussions about it and he not only has a fan dangling in front of a child, he does not have all the kids who should legally be in booster seats in booster seats, the ones who are in car seats, the seats are not properly installed because he has crammed a gutter in there(for a reason that no one could understand) and it makes the car seats crooked. He also is continually taking pictures while driving in very bad weather.

Yeah, tell us again how John takes good care of his children and doesn't treat them like they are disposable. :roll:

[ILoveJellybeans]

How do people actually support John. He is like the male, Christian version of Sparkling Lauren. Although I guess fundies forgive him because of the male, Christian part.

[GeoBQn]

Those people were very charming and charismatic and full of ideas for Wonderful Projects That Everyone Will Love (I capitalize to try to convey how they presented their ideas, with great enthusiasm, and as if everything they thought of already had the world's stamp of approval).

We don't have to look further than John's trip to Burundi for an example of this. He went into it with extremely high goals--holding a training session with pastors from several different countries, convert a lot of people, meeting the president. He wanted to start a "Crusade" (and DON'T get me started on the use of that word.)

Absolutely none of it happened. The people who claimed to be pastors turned out to be thieves, he never met the president, and he claimed to convert only three people. All he did was take advantage of the generosity of his hosts and the local people. If he failed that badly at a short term trip where he was alone, then how can anybody believe he will do a better job when he's there for years with his family?

[slickcat79]

I am not sure what you mean by his not being able to support his family or the racism that you have seen in him or that he disregards the welfare of his family. But as far as support for him by other churches, they know that support does generally go toward supporting the missionary and his family in order for them to do the work that they believe God has called them to do. And if I know John, the money will not be wasted and he will use more of it on ministry than himself unlike many missionaries I have known over the years the used "deputation" as extended vacation to every them park in the country. That is one reason when I went was a missionary (not foreign) I chose not to do deputation. I told my church my burden, and within 3 months moved 3 states away without deputation or promised support or a job. I went by faith with my family of 5 at the time and lived on our savings for 6 months and when it was gone, we had churches sending support that we never asked for. I have always felt if God wants me to do something, He will provide without me asking others. I have nothing against those who do deputation, just the ones that do it for years as a joy ride.

But as for John, he has proven that he handles funds with care and is not wasteful. His family is taken care of and happy. If God wants him in Zambia, then He will provide all the tools even if John is ill equipped for the work and lacks skills, God has a way of developing it. If God is not in it, hopefully John is able to recognize it and humbly return home and say "I was wrong".

LOL...like Silver Dollar City, the Creation Museum, and a live interactive performance of Joseph and the Technicolor Dream Coat? Ahh, Deputation Delights :whistle:

Apparently John's problems with the visas arose from the fact that he believed his receipt for visa application was sufficient in lieu of the actual visa :lol: Because it's not like the government has to approve those or anything. The family has been welcomed by a "brother and sister in Christ" and are staying in a church while John looks for a house for them in Kafue.

John's priority list:

Plane (ability to fly it optional)

Industrial printer, cutter, and 2 tons of paper

New troopie

.

.

.

.

.

.

Roof over the kids' head :?

[ILoveJellybeans]

LOL...like Silver Dollar City, the Creation Museum, and a live interactive performance of Joseph and the Technicolor Dream Coat? Ahh, Deputation Delights :whistle:

Apparently John's problems with the visas arose from the fact that he believed his receipt for visa application was sufficient in lieu of the actual visa :lol: Because it's not like the government has to approve those or anything. The family has been welcomed by a "brother and sister in Christ" and are staying in a church while John looks for a house for them in Kafue.

John's priority list:

Plane (ability to fly it optional)

Industrial printer, cutter, and 2 tons of paper

New troopie

.

.

.

.

.

.

Roof over the kids' head :?

So he tried to get there without a visa but instead just gave them the receipt for the application?

So what happens if he doesn't get it within a certain amount of time? Or it gets denied? Do they send him back to America?

[formergothardite]

We don't have to look further than John's trip to Burundi for an example of this. He went into it with extremely high goals--holding a training session with pastors from several different countries, convert a lot of people, meeting the president. He wanted to start a "Crusade" (and DON'T get me started on the use of that word.)

Absolutely none of it happened. The people who claimed to be pastors turned out to be thieves, he never met the president, and he claimed to convert only three people. All he did was take advantage of the generosity of his hosts and the local people. If he failed that badly at a short term trip where he was alone, then how can anybody believe he will do a better job when he's there for years with his family?

Didn't he also help someone escape the country on this trip? Blessing was what John called him I think. :lol: John is an idiot. I hope the people of Zambia use his stupidity and arrogance to get things they really need.

[slickcat79]

I think there is a full story of the LORD at work still to come re: the visas. The support of the local pastor would go a long way towards getting him a temp visa...and I'd be willing to bet some $$ changed hands too. Seriously, the LORD! ;)

[thoughtful]

How do people actually support John. He is like the male, Christian version of Sparkling Lauren. Although I guess fundies forgive him because of the male, Christian part.

I think that's part of it, and he probably pulls others in because he is going on a mission to convert people.

Of course, that's one of the things that sets my teeth on edge, but others see it as a positive thing.

[Justme]

Why am I not surprised he doesn't have his visa's! I guess they must have given him temporary tourist visas. I hope he realized he can't start "working" until he gets the real ones.

What a bozo!

[chaotic life]

It's Zambia, if you don't participate in the local economy, you aren't going to function, much less survive.

I once watched a life-long Quaker missionary bribe a police officer to not take his license in Latin America and then realize he had Americans in the car with him. He looked bashful that we observed, but seriously, the man had spent 30 years in the country working first with Church World Service and then Heifer Project. If anyone knew how to keep focused on the bigger picture, it was that man. Far too many, especially conservative/fundamentalist missionaries will refuse to participate in the local economy at all. They don't typically last long.

The only time I am diehard against participation is when it involves the movement of children, when it becomes NOT God's work but child trafficking.

[GeoBQn]

Didn't he also help someone escape the country on this trip? Blessing was what John called him I think. :lol: John is an idiot. I hope the people of Zambia use his stupidity and arrogance to get things they really need.

That was a weird episode. "Blessing" lost his passport in a lake. And the other two converts kept changing their minds.

[kunoichi66]

He wrote this on his FB page when it was public. He has now made it private.

Oh, I see.

ETA: formergothardite - thanks for the link. That was, quite frankly, creepy as hell.

[RosyDaisy]

Furthermore, he's neglected to give his children proper vaccinations and anti-malaria medication for the trip. He's alluded to the fact that he expects to lose one or two of his children along the way during this 'adventure.'

What the actual fuck? I'm hoping he means the kids wandering off and quickly found and not actualy dying. Who the hell says things like this about their kids?

[ViolaSebastian]

Formergothardite dug it up for me:

Here you go. Skip to around 6:40 to hear him forget the children whose birthdays they are celebrating. Then you can skip to the end where he says "If the Lord wills, we will hope to be able to enjoy many more birthdays to come with our precious children. The mission field is dangerous with disease, poisonous snakes, mosquitoes carrying malaria, and many other hazards." This is especially chilling when you know that John has decided to skip providing his children with protection from diseases, malaria and the other hazards that he knows can kill them. But if they die, it won't be because of his negligence, it will be because "the Lord didn't will that they celebrate another birthday." :roll:

Also, he messed up the boys' names right before they blow out the candles...and can we just talk about why the hell there's a tiger on an African safari themed cake? SOTDRT fail...

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Can't snark on him for getting his kids makes mixed up. My mother has only 3 of us and I get called anything from my sisters name to the dogs name!

I am avidly reading along and enjoying the thread. The thread title does need to be changed though...poisonwood bible LIVE is so much more witty and apt that the current title (no disrespect intended OP I wouldn't have come up with anything better!)

[shraderfriend]

Hi again everyone. There is so much to respond to, but I am having a hard time with the quote thing to pin point specific responses.

Thank you for the trolling explanation. I was thinking some sort of fairy tale type troll and not the fishing kind. Makes sense to me. I wish I could post more often to not get bogged down, but, I have a family that needs to be cared for, as well as a job and fulltime college (yes it is fully accredited! :D ).

So I check in at night.

From your explanations, I can see where you might get some of those impressions although I don't think it is a true representation of John's character. But time will tell.

I think formergothardite mentioned the race stuff, I don't think that it shows racism, but possibly poor choice of words. I know what you mean though. When I did mission work to a particular religious group in western state with a big lake of salt water ;) I never mentioned "souls saved", "how many doors knocked", "number of visitors", "soul talks" etc because I don't like numbers or notches on the belt to determine success. I only mentioned interactions with specific people and asked for prayer for the needs that those people had etc. I never really liked prayer letters or mission reports because I knew that it was a game of words to compete with other "missionaries" for support. I sent them but never played to the audience, just told what was going on. I also never told of our needs very often. i will not say never, because I am sure I sent out letters in stressful time where I lacked faith and opened my mouth when I should have kept quiet and let God do what he would do.

I am curious what your (formergothardite) experiences were in the ATI junk?

We tried it (ATI) with our family for 2 years, but did not see any benefit from it and it was expensive so we stopped. We never attempted to go to a conference but did try to get to know the families (even went to the duggars house and bought a car from Josh and visited their church several times). The people were "friendly" but distant, meaning not letting you really meet them, only the outward image they have portrayed. We did all the seminars (basic was interesting, advanced was worthless, Anger was a mixture of the previous, and financial freedom had no point). I noticed that only the people who felt their lives "were changed" by seeing these were accepted. I am not saying all were this way, but it was the general impression we got. Anyway after two years of wisdom books we stopped because I saw no educational benefit or even character benefit.

I have found that I can not change myself to be more godly by working at it through taking steps and applying principles. God must do the changes in me and I have to be willing to follow.

[shraderfriend]

Why do I support him? was asked somewhere along the way.

I do love missions, seeing people saved, and lives changed. The way I understand the work John will be doing does include more than "planting churches" but will involve working in the areas of helping with the daily needs and struggles of people. I love the mission styles of Mary Slessor, Cameron Townsend and others that taught life improvements at practical levels and lived AMONG the people as those people in their times. But also my understanding is that he will be going to train indigenous people to pastor churches to lead the people there in their Christian walk. If there are 75% or whatever the number that are believers, they will need pastors. I prefer it be their own people who know them best to lead them.

I have friends that are in Mongolia doing great work there to build churches and train mongolians to pastor. My only issue with them is that they are training mongolians to be "american churches". I am for putting on your best to worship God, but it does not need to be always be what is considered best in America. I looks silly for a mongolian preacher to enter the church in a gaer (I am sure that is spelled wrong, but it is like a yurt) wearing a black suit, white shirt and tie while the congregation is in rags, which may well be their best. The worst part though is that they are building american style church buildings for the people that will never be self supported by the people of Mongolia and therefore I foresee a need to keep American missionaries there to get american support because once the people are trained and the americans leave, the churches cannot be sustained. Then the people are affected.

I don't see those being Johns goals for Zambia. But plant a church, teach men to lead, and let them do it, is what I believe will occur.