The Smuggars: Josh, Anna and the M'kids

[HarryPotterFan]

:pink-shock: :pink-shock: :pink-shock:

Women's wombs are graveyards for lots and lots of little babies?? WTF Are these people on fucking acid?? What about the women who are on the pill and not having sex? Are they sinners too?? This is fucking insanity

Remember this when Arizona tried to pass a law stating women were pregnant 2 weeks before conception?

http://rt.com/usa/arizona-bill-conception-abortion-387/

[LittleOleMe]

Remember this when Arizona tried to pass a law stating women were pregnant 2 weeks before conception?

http://rt.com/usa/arizona-bill-conception-abortion-387/

Oh yuck. I do remember that. Such bullshit.

[HarryPotterFan]

I hear ya there. Josh has never made an intelligent decision outside of picking a pretty girl who appears to be pretty good at keeping house and enjoys the lifestyle of a stay at home. But she's just as dimwitted at JB. I agree that I can see her wandering into the "wrong" neighbourhood and either not getting it or being extremely rude to the people, much like her BIL John, "ministering" to them about the error their ways and how the lord will always provide. Never realizing that these people are living in a tragic cycle of poverty and under/noneducation.

Oy. Like those people who come to college campuses and preach about how all non-fundie types are awful sinners who are going to hell? Your last comment reminds me of the "Book of Mormon" where they go on a mission trip to Uganda, and the the Ugandans are basically like, "Um, our life is shit, there's disease and abuse by war lords, how will converting help?"

[LittleOleMe]

Obviously if the warlords would convert, then they would end their terrible violence. Obviously. Sheesh ... and stop giving away the plot. I have yet to see it. :shhh:

I was thinking, with that arizona bill, wouldn't that also essentially make it child endangerment for a woman to be drinking - ever. If she's drinking she could possibly conceive a child soon (bc she's ALWAYS pregnant :roll: ) and that alcohol could endanger the child. Or something equally stupid. Also, would any murder of a woman be considered a double murder since, again, she's ALWAYS pregnant? Seriously, do these people not realize what kind of a slope they are setting up?

[LittleOleMe]

90lbs is referencing a 5pt harness in the forward facing position and it only sits a child up to a certain height. We currently only have rear facing in this country to 50lbs. There is a point where even if you aren't the heavy enough/tall enough to get out of a seat that it doesn't matter anymore (and I want to say that's like age 10?) but I'm not entirely sure what that is bc it doesn't apply to me and I don't know anyone who is under the 120lbs max that my seat is and under 57". (My seat forward faces with a 5pt harness up to 80lbs but then converts to a booster for up to 120lbs. But it still maxes out at 57". So even if my kids are under 120lbs but over 57" tall, they can't use the seat anymore.)

ETA: And my reference post went away .. okay then .. I'll leave this up if anyone else is confused by the wording.

[HarryPotterFan]

Obviously if the warlords would convert, then they would end their terrible violence. Obviously. Sheesh ... and stop giving away the plot. I have yet to see it. :shhh:

I was thinking, with that arizona bill, wouldn't that also essentially make it child endangerment for a woman to be drinking - ever. If she's drinking she could possibly conceive a child soon (bc she's ALWAYS pregnant :roll: ) and that alcohol could endanger the child. Or something equally stupid. Also, would any murder of a woman be considered a double murder since, again, she's ALWAYS pregnant? Seriously, do these people not realize what kind of a slope they are setting up?

Oops! Sorry! That's not really too much of a spoiler. But you should definitely see it if you can! And when/if it comes to where you live, HOP ON THOSE TICKETS IMMEDIATELY. They go crazy fast. Because it is the best musical ever, and 10 minutes in I wanted to see it again.

Yeah...such a stupid bill. With that bill, wouldn't all virgins be pregnant with baby Jesus?

[Coco]

Oh yuck. I do remember that. Such bullshit.

wow. this is getting scary. they really do want to outlaw all types of reproductive control.

In extending her support for the legislation, however, sponsor Nancy Barto, a Republican senator representing the Phoenix, Arizona area says that fetuses are able to feel pain after the 20-week mark. Also favoring the proposal, Senator Steve Smith (R-Maricopa) adds that lawmakers also need to consider “the 50 million-plus children who have been killed†since the US Supreme Court legalized abortion in Roe v Wade.

"I would like to listen to the 50 million-plus children that have been aborted and killed since Roe v. Wade,'' the senator says."I would like to listen to what they think of this bill.''

ok first, that seems like a high number. RvW was in '73. So 50 million abortions in 41 years? i wonder what kind of inclusion they're doing there. Birth control pills?

second, 20 weeks is the FIVE MONTH mark. (of course they're trying to make that 4 months and two weeks)

I don't have numbers but I would guess that most pregnancies that are ended are done before the five month marker. Planned Parenthood offers an out-patient pill that will start a late period (up to five weeks). Even though that is technically an abortion, what is it at five weeks? A little cluster of cells?

Pregnancy at 5 weeks (a drawing, not a photo)

Pregnancy at 20 weeks (a drawing, not a photo)

The babies (fetuses, zygotes, barely-joined sperm/egg, endrometrial prep lining) that did not become babies would probably say, THANK YOU for sparing me from a lifetime of being unwanted, abused, neglected, abandoned, forgotten, hungry. Even if the FEW that were five months along that felt some pain? It's tragic, it's sad, but the way these lawmakers are manipulating the facts to tug on heartstrings by saying that all pregnancies that are ended were cute cuddly little babies, well that's inexcusable.

If they really want to make a difference they need to be pushing CONTRACEPTION (to stop the unwanted pregnancies in the first place) and MATERNAL SUPPORT / CHILDCARE PROGRAMS / WELFARE. (to care for the babies that are accidental)

Just a disclaimer i do not support late term abortions at all. i have a hard time even supporting the chemical option of starting a late period at five weeks. BUT i do not believe that they should be trying to ban contraception. If women have control over their reproduction then these decisions will be limited by being stopped before they even begin.

[LittleOleMe]

That's what I don't understand about these people. If they are so against abortion, then why are they also against contraception?? Not just birth control pills, bc those turn women's uteri into graveyards - obviously - but they are against condoms as well. If they don't want babies aborted then help prevent the unwanted one from being created in the first place.

As far as the 52 million abortions, I really do believe that number is inflated for many reasons. One, many people who have abortions, have other abortions. Many of those abortions would never have happened if the first abortion hadn't happened. Additionally, many procedures are considered abortions in medical terms. A D&C can be considered an abortion. Inducing labour for a child who will never survive can be considered an abortion.

[Ella]

"Inducing labour for a child who will never survive can be considered an abortion."

In that case, had Josie not survived, Michelle would have had a retroactive abortion.

[LittleOleMe]

"Inducing labour for a child who will never survive can be considered an abortion."

In that case, had Josie not survived, Michelle would have had a retroactive abortion.

I was thinking more along of the lines of a child with a terminal illness or a severe birth defect that just making it to full term would be a miracle, so inducing labour is just more humane to both the child and the entire family. Michelle had a c-section with the intention of saving Josie, so I don't think that would count. But I do wonder what they would have done had they had to induce just a week earlier?

[Coconut Flan]

A week earlier would have been no different ethically. 23 to 24 weeks is the boundary of viability. :)

Three weeks earlier would have been an issue.

[freedomjesusfootball]

Obviously if the warlords would convert, then they would end their terrible violence. Obviously. Sheesh ... and stop giving away the plot. I have yet to see it. :shhh:

I was thinking, with that arizona bill, wouldn't that also essentially make it child endangerment for a woman to be drinking - ever. If she's drinking she could possibly conceive a child soon (bc she's ALWAYS pregnant :roll: ) and that alcohol could endanger the child. Or something equally stupid. Also, would any murder of a woman be considered a double murder since, again, she's ALWAYS pregnant? Seriously, do these people not realize what kind of a slope they are setting up?

you can drink for the two weeks after your period starts / before you ovulate. so you better bring your fertility charts with you if you want to go buy wine.

[djibouti]

I legitimately want to have conversation/discussion with you on this. I'm not snarking on you or trying to attack you or your beliefs. With that said, the morning after pill/emergency contraception/plan b does prevent implantation. It prevents fertilization but if that has already occurred, since the pill can be taken up to 72 hrs after sex, it then works to prevent implantation. If that has already occurred, then it does absolutely no harm to the embryo. The birth control pill, on the other hand, works to prevent ovulation so that fertilization doesn't happen.

Plenty of eggs can be/are fertilized and never implant. While I agree that once a woman is pregnant it is a life inside of her, I can't agree that that life starts at fertilization. At fertilization it's still nothing. The body attacks it as a foreign object. But once it implants, then it's a pregnancy and will become a little human assuming nothing happens. I don't really understand why/how people are so stuck on this "life begins at conception" when fertilized eggs fail to implant all the time. Are all those failed implantations little people waiting up in heaven? I seriously curious about this and would appreciate any response. My Catholic school had enough problems with me questioning other aspects of the church that I never really got to this matter with them.

Honestly, I can't answer your last question. I find that conception, the act of fertilizing the egg is where I choose to draw the line between person and non person. The pill usually works to prevent ovulation, but the pill fails, and it can make the uterus inhabitable if fertilization does occur. It's a small chance, even the most pro-life and anti-BC person will admit that. Personally, I would not feel comfortable being on the pill knowing there was even the slightest chance it could harm one of my children. My husband supports me completely on this, and we find NFP to work great for us. That being said, I am pro-choice! Imagine that. I used to be staunchly pro-life and was even in the pro-life club at my Catholic high school. My experiences working with destitute, impoverished and abused women in my years as an RN changed that completely. I have met women for whom abortion is truly the only option that will provide them with a safe & healthy future. And I completely support safe sex education, and have even volunteered at homeless shelters to teach classes and play "condom bingo" ;)

[LittleOleMe]

Honestly, I can't answer your last question. I find that conception, the act of fertilizing the egg is where I choose to draw the line between person and non person. The pill usually works to prevent ovulation, but the pill fails, and it can make the uterus inhabitable if fertilization does occur. It's a small chance, even the most pro-life and anti-BC person will admit that. Personally, I would not feel comfortable being on the pill knowing there was even the slightest chance it could harm one of my children. My husband supports me completely on this, and we find NFP to work great for us. That being said, I am pro-choice! Imagine that. I used to be staunchly pro-life and was even in the pro-life club at my Catholic high school. My experiences working with destitute, impoverished and abused women in my years as an RN changed that completely. I have met women for whom abortion is truly the only option that will provide them with a safe & healthy future. And I completely support safe sex education, and have even volunteered at homeless shelters to teach classes and play "condom bingo" ;)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Can you go teach other Catholics and Christians how to be a true Catholics and Christians?? We need more religious people like you in this world. Seriously. Plus you actually answered my questions and gave an honest answer to one you couldn't. Massive respect there. :cracking-up:

NFP is a fantastic method for those who understand how to use it properly and do indeed use it. A very good friend of mine used it for years to prevent pregnancy and last year used it get pregnant. It's great if you're willing to put in the minimal effort to do it.

[DuggarTime]

Honestly, I can't answer your last question. I find that conception, the act of fertilizing the egg is where I choose to draw the line between person and non person. The pill usually works to prevent ovulation, but the pill fails, and it can make the uterus inhabitable if fertilization does occur. It's a small chance, even the most pro-life and anti-BC person will admit that. Personally, I would not feel comfortable being on the pill knowing there was even the slightest chance it could harm one of my children. My husband supports me completely on this, and we find NFP to work great for us. That being said, I am pro-choice! Imagine that. I used to be staunchly pro-life and was even in the pro-life club at my Catholic high school. My experiences working with destitute, impoverished and abused women in my years as an RN changed that completely. I have met women for whom abortion is truly the only option that will provide them with a safe & healthy future. And I completely support safe sex education, and have even volunteered at homeless shelters to teach classes and play "condom bingo" ;)

Does NFP work effectively for you? I'm just curous. I would be scared to try that if I wasn't ready to accept a pregnancy if it happened. Do you also use condoms in addition?

[djibouti]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Can you go teach other Catholics and Christians how to be a true Catholics and Christians?? We need more religious people like you in this world. Seriously. Plus you actually answered my questions and gave an honest answer to one you couldn't. Massive respect there. :cracking-up:

NFP is a fantastic method for those who understand how to use it properly and do indeed use it. A very good friend of mine used it for years to prevent pregnancy and last year used it get pregnant. It's great if you're willing to put in the minimal effort to do it.

Thank you for saying that! This has actually been a difficult road for me... which is one of the reasons I initially found Freejinger, as I was questioning a lot of the things I had grown up believing as fact.

Does NFP work effectively for you? I'm just curous. I would be scared to try that if I wasn't ready to accept a pregnancy if it happened. Do you also use condoms in addition?

:lol: I'm probably not the best to ask about this! I will say, that when we have tried very hard to not get pregnant, we haven't gotten pregnant. For the first couple years of our marriage we didn't want kids, and when we were finally ready I got pregnant right away (with twins, because that's how life works) shortly after they were born I got pregnant again, which I attribute to not realizing how quickly my body would be ready for pregnancy after birth. That pregnancy was my only miscarriage. We didn't try to get pregnant again until our twins were 3, and we weren't really actively trying, it was more like let's just not really pay attention and see what happens. So then we had another, and it was similar when we had our 4th two years later. And I'm due with our 5th in september, but this one we actively planned. After this we want to be done and I'm pretty confident that NFP will take care of things. But you have to be open to the fact that NFP isn't fool proof and I probably have several more good fertile years so there's a chance we could have another. We don't use condoms.

I'm one of 11, and my mother doesn't talk about whether or not they used any sort of natural family planning method to avoid or try to get pregnant. My guess is no.

[HarryPotterFan]

I feel like this site is teaching me more about contraception and sex than my sex ed classes (which were just a unit in health classes), which is just sad. The only time I can ever remember being taught about ovulation was in 5th grade, when the idea of ovulating and having babies was so far removed from your life that you just don't absorb any information. Plus my teacher was super uncomfortable teaching us, so there was that added element. And even that was just telling us ovulating happens for however many days some time before your period. (Clearly I remember nothing)

And I live in a blue state, and over the years sex ed got more and more abstinence only/sex shaming. I wonder what sex ed is like now. I have a relative who goes to my high school, but asking him how bullshit his sex ed class is would be awkward :lol:

Edited because I can't type.

[tralala]

I'm sorry to derail the thread (really great discussion happening!) but I can't get over how much better Josh and Anna look now compared to this time last year. Like I know Anna was pregnant, but they both look so much healthier and confident now. Anna's style has appreciated the increase in salary for them, and I bet the increase means they're eating better too. As much as Smuggars job is bullshit, it's the best thing to ever happen to their little family.

Back to your regular discussion. I just felt the need to say something.

[DuggarTime]

Thank you for saying that! This has actually been a difficult road for me... which is one of the reasons I initially found Freejinger, as I was questioning a lot of the things I had grown up believing as fact.

:lol: I'm probably not the best to ask about this! I will say, that when we have tried very hard to not get pregnant, we haven't gotten pregnant. For the first couple years of our marriage we didn't want kids, and when we were finally ready I got pregnant right away (with twins, because that's how life works) shortly after they were born I got pregnant again, which I attribute to not realizing how quickly my body would be ready for pregnancy after birth. That pregnancy was my only miscarriage. We didn't try to get pregnant again until our twins were 3, and we weren't really actively trying, it was more like let's just not really pay attention and see what happens. So then we had another, and it was similar when we had our 4th two years later. And I'm due with our 5th in september, but this one we actively planned. After this we want to be done and I'm pretty confident that NFP will take care of things. But you have to be open to the fact that NFP isn't fool proof and I probably have several more good fertile years so there's a chance we could have another. We don't use condoms.

I'm one of 11, and my mother doesn't talk about whether or not they used any sort of natural family planning method to avoid or try to get pregnant. My guess is no.

Thanks so much for the info. It is really helpful as a fellow catholic who agrees with everything you said before!

[HereticHick]

I've always wondered what would have happened if JimBob and Michelle had practiced until NFP instead of what appears to have been a lifetime of actively trying to get pregnant. Michelle appears to be hyperfertile, but I'd still guess that there would be a dozen Duggarlings, tops.

[Tom Slick]

I don't know if this goes here?

This is from DWOP

Anonymous said...

By the Way, Newsflash: Anna is indeed expecting M#4 in September. I can't believe how stupid they both are. She already looks exhausted and will be a hag by the time she's 28.

6/15/2014 11:44 AM

Don't know what to say?

[IronicallyMaeve]

I don't know if this goes here?

This is from DWOP

Anonymous said...

By the Way, Newsflash: Anna is indeed expecting M#4 in September. I can't believe how stupid they both are. She already looks exhausted and will be a hag by the time she's 28.

6/15/2014 11:44 AM

Don't know what to say?

They'll probably announce when TLC gives them another season to hype up interest.

[Seren Ann]

Is this still speculation about Anna being pregnant based on pictures (like the ones on Pecan Thief's blog) ? Or is there additional information, or an insider tip ?

Saying this because I don't know what to think myself... On the one hand she definitely looked pregnant in David's pictures and videos around the time. On the other time this has happened before at Pris's wedding and nothing came of it. And now she seems to be looking slimmer. I guess when we get to see pictures from Jill's wedding that might settle it.

And in any case, even if she's not pregnant now, if she follows the timeline she did for Marcus, she'll be getting pregnant in September anyway, so it's only a matter of months.

[Ella]

Anna seems to be doing a great job so far. Maybe she'll have a bunch of kids now, in her twenties. And not as many in her thirties (and forties).

[silverspoons]

Is this still speculation about Anna being pregnant based on pictures (like the ones on Pecan Thief's blog) ? Or is there additional information, or an insider tip ?

Saying this because I don't know what to think myself... On the one hand she definitely looked pregnant in David's pictures and videos around the time. On the other time this has happened before at Pris's wedding and nothing came of it. And now she seems to be looking slimmer. I guess when we get to see pictures from Jill's wedding that might settle it.

And in any case, even if she's not pregnant now, if she follows the timeline she did for Marcus, she'll be getting pregnant in September anyway, so it's only a matter of months.

The Duggar family blog has a video posted about Josh and Fathers day for the FRC and this is the first time I am saying she looks pregnant. Since it is the FRC I'm would put it past them to make her look pregnant or as pregnant as possible (given how far along she is) since I believe Josh big role is to be the next face of the mega family.

Coming late to the discussion but NFP does work. My Best friend growing up was Catholic and her parents taught the NFP class so I saw the presentation more times then I can count. At age 28 I had vascular issue and blood clots which left me very few BC options. My youngest is 11 and I have used NFP and no problems. The most important part is having a spouse that is 100% on board.