All Things Doug Phillips & VF, Including Lourdes's Lawsuit

[Maxwell]

Some of the stuff VF sold was on flip sides of the coin. We sell stuff that is promoting fathers being entrepreneurs and being "family shepherds" and then on the flip side we sell Endurance which is a book about a dad going off for years on his adventures away from home. There were blatant and obvious contradictions around that a lot of people didn't notice.

You're right, many didn't notice, but I/we did. Funny, that Endurance was about a dad, going off for years on his adventures away from home, and cheating on his wife. How telling that VF sold it.

Doug also loved Teddy Roosevelt -- who was the founder of the Progressive Party, something that Doug seemed very opposed to.

In my analysis, DPIAT was/is opportunistic more than anything. If he though he could get away with it he would until someone pointed out the hypocricy, then he'd make it go away. The whole 'Raising of the Allosaur' is a good example, as is the pulling of 'Little House on the Prarie' video series.

[CloakNDagger]

Exactly. Trying to prove they weren't racist. The fact that they were in a position to have to "try to prove they weren't racist" doesn't say anything to you?

Trust me, it does. But I was around and I really don't think they were. What else could they do if they were sincerely not racist? They pulled books, edited others I think, and made an effort to change the "face" of it all. It wasn't so much that it was supposed to be all white stuff at the outset as it was a homeschool / local group of folks involved and they all happened to be white. That doesn't necessarily make them racist. The decisions to get black and Hispanic people to model for the catalogs and such was an attempt to appeal to those groups as well, though I would consider it to have been largely a failure except for a small group.

I'm with Maxwell on this. I think DPIAT was opportunistic. Trying to bring in a broad tent of homeschool followers to buy from VF. Along the way he sold different things that were of a contradictory nature but would achieve the goal of being a big name in the homeschool community.

[DomWackTroll]

I have to take issue with the 'token black children' comment. Adoption is a big deal -- I know, I've done it -- and I get a little steamed when someone suggests that my daugher is a `token black child`. We set out to adopt, period. Once the hurdles of paperwork and home studies and finding an adoption attourney were cleared we were asked what kind of child were were looking to adopt. Like it or not, there is a price tag attached to the adoption -- the lowest cost is for black males... then black females... then hispanic (male/femail) and on up the line with the most expensive being white children. Our stance was not, "oh, lets get a token black child -- we'll look good and it's cheap!" but rather, "We don't care about color, we'd like to maybe do this again if we can, there seems to be a need as it's a supply/demand thing, so yeah, a black male is fine, we just want more children." Of all the mixed race adoptive families I know -- and it's many -- NONE have adopted 'token black children', even the VF following ones.

Ummm... there *were* free blacks that fought FOR the Confederacy.

You know... I know many eligible white ladies who are still waiting for a suitor... it may have NOTHING to do with the fact that Jasmine Baucham is black. Maybe it has to do with young men being intimidated by her rather well known father and the expectations (real or perceived) that come with dating courting his daughter.

All that said, I'm not saying that there weren't racist people involved at VF... I'm sure there were... because there are racist people all over the place in many organizations and to say otherwise would be a lie but I, personally, did not see it.

1. I never said anything about your daughter being a token black child, so please don't put words in my mouth. I am an adopted child myself, so I don't take the subject lightly.

2. Ummm... I know there were free blacks who fought for the Confederacy, but that has nothing to do with forcing an African-American child to wear a Confederate uniform in 2014. (Or whatever year that photo was from-- 2012, 2013, I don't know)

3. Yep, their names are Anna Sofia and Elizabeth and we've heard the stories of all the VF men who would give their right arms to get near them. But strangely enough, we've heard no such stories about Jasmine Baucham, even though she is pretty, intelligent, and eager to be a wife and mother. You're right in that I can't prove it's because she's black. Even VFers aren't dumb enough to run around saying things like, "I'd never let my son court Jasmine Baucham because she's black."

Edited for a typo.

[CloakNDagger]

3. Yep, their names are Anna Sofia and Elizabeth and we've heard the stories of all the VF men who would give their right arms to get near them. But strangely enough, we've heard no such stories about Jasmine Baucham, even though she is pretty, intelligent, and eager to be a wife and mother. You're right in that I can't prove it's because she black. Even VFers aren't dumb enough to run around saying things like, "I'd never let my son court Jasmine Baucham because she's black."

There are a LOT of untold stories from these groups... just saying. For instance, I look at the list of unmarried fundies on this site and it is waay under-represented and key people are missing, while others that get a lot of attention here were basically nothings in the VF circles I was around.

[DomWackTroll]

Okay, I think I'm done trying to reason with people who think it's normal and healthy and "not racist" to dress a black child in a Confederate uniform and parade him around on Memorial Day. :angry-banghead:

[CloakNDagger]

Okay, I think I'm done trying to reason with people who think it's normal and healthy and "not racist" to dress a black child in a Confederate uniform and parade him around on Memorial Day. :angry-banghead:

I wouldn't do it - just saying. Is it wrong, probably, depending on how you look at it. However, I would be careful about making out MORE fringe elements that attended VF events with the actual VF intentions. I do know truly racist people.

[formergothardite]

As a proud Southerner I really, really hate the "it was about state rights" bullshit. We need to own our past and that includes the bad part that it was about slavery and making sure the North didn't keep the slaves free.

[Maxwell]

1. I never said anything about your daughter being a token black child, so please don't put words in my mouth. I am an adopted child myself, so I don't take the subject lightly.

2. Ummm... I know there were free blacks who fought for the Confederacy, but that has nothing to do with forcing an African-American child to wear a Confederate uniform in 2014. (Or whatever year that photo was from-- 2012, 2013, I don't know)

3. Yep, their names are Anna Sofia and Elizabeth and we've heard the stories of all the VF men who would give their right arms to get near them. But strangely enough, we've heard no such stories about Jasmine Baucham, even though she is pretty, intelligent, and eager to be a wife and mother. You're right in that I can't prove it's because she black. Even VFers aren't dumb enough to run around saying things like, "I'd never let my son court Jasmine Baucham because she's black."

Regarding #1... my apologies for putting words in your mouth, that was not my intension. While I certainly did write that as if I thought you were calling my daughter a 'token black child', I did not take it personally and it was a very poor wording for what I was trying to express. It's just that I've have heard that charge leveled before, by others, and it really bothers me. Racsim is such an easy charge to make and an almost impossible one to defend against. I guess I worded it that way because I assume that if you're willing to say that about some one you don't know but disagree with, what would stop you from thinking the same of me?

As to point 2... sure. I see it as a dumb thing to do in the PC world we live in, even it if may be historically accurate (which gustava's linked artical disputes but does not dispell)

And lastly, to point 3... I can only speak from personal experience and as someone on the very fringe VF world, I have not personally run into anyone that I would deem as a racist. That's just me. YMMV.

With that, I think I'll bow out of this portion of the discussion. I'm not running away, I just have invested much more time than I can afford at the moment. I should have known better going in.

[DomWackTroll]

African-American children being forced to salute a "Confederate soldier" at Scott Brown's Memorial Day picnic:

Racist and perverse.

[DomWackTroll]

So, anyhoo... Bob Sarratt is no longer an elder at Boerne Christian Assembly...

boernechristianassembly.org/about/2008/01/elders.php

Speculate away!

[Coconut Flan]

I wonder how many members and attendees remain and if it will continue as a church or fail relatively soon.

[ladyamylynn]

He went OUT of his WAY to be friendly to most everyone including some back people that worked for him. He is a manipulator for sure, but I'm not convinced he's actually a racist. I think he took a look around him and took things that he thought would appeal to a segment of the population, borrowed stuff from others, and packaged it all very pretty and sold it. The fact that they sold the Fidelia doll (actually, it was the Abigail doll that was the black doll and Fidelia was the Hispanic doll) was I think actually trying to prove that they weren't racist more than anything. There was a deliberate attempt to draw in more blacks and Hispanics with those two dolls. I don't think you do that if you are actually a racist. Stupid, willingly blind to Dabney's bad side, yeah, but deliberately racist, I don't think so.

Some of the stuff VF sold was on flip sides of the coin. We sell stuff that is promoting fathers being entrepreneurs and being "family shepherds" and then on the flip side we sell Endurance which is a book about a dad going off for years on his adventures away from home. There were blatant and obvious contradictions around that a lot of people didn't notice.

Stop the presses! Doug Phillips was friendly to some black people! Case closed, we can all go home now. Thanks for clearing that one up, dude.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I wouldn't do it - just saying. Is it wrong, probably, depending on how you look at it. However, I would be careful about making out MORE fringe elements that attended VF events with the actual VF intentions. I do know truly racist people.

Not trying to dispute the wrongness of it. Uncool. But. If you're a family dressing up for that picnic, why would not include your child? To me, it shows a lack of racism. If they truly see it as having been an issue of states' rights, and they're all dressing up, of course they would dress up all of their children. Barring not participating (which would have been the prudent thing to do), what would you have them do? Not include one of their sons? Dress him up as a slave instead? To me, it seems like a family being a family at their event, and treating all of their children the same.

And that whole "token black child/guy/girl" is so frigging annoying. I'd give my arm for another child....white, black, or rainbow. It's irritating as crap when it's implied that every fundie family that adopts a non-white child does so for the wrong reasons.

And I think it's just possible that Jasmine Baucham wanted to marry a black dude.

[CloakNDagger]

Not trying to dispute the wrongness of it. Uncool. But. If you're a family dressing up for that picnic, why would not include your child? To me, it shows a lack of racism. If they truly see it as having been an issue of states' rights, and they're all dressing up, of course they would dress up all of their children. Barring not participating (which would have been the prudent thing to do), what would you have them do? Not include one of their sons? Dress him up as a slave instead? To me, it seems like a family being a family at their event, and treating all of their children the same.

And that whole "token black child/guy/girl" is so frigging annoying. I'd give my arm for another child....white, black, or rainbow. It's irritating as crap when it's implied that every fundie family that adopts a non-white child does so for the wrong reasons.

And I think it's just possible that Jasmine Baucham wanted to marry a black dude.

Agreed on the states-rights deal if a family believed that genuinely, but then again this was a Memorial Day celebration and it would probably go a lot further to pick a more genuine hero for a young person to emulate than some unknown black Confederate soldier. It shouldn't be that hard to find something acceptable and for sur WWII would be acceptable for Scott. Browns event.

http://robt.shepherd.tripod.com/black-heroes.html

I agree about the token thing. The families I know with black kids including at least one that used to attend BCA cared for them. They weren't "tokens."

[DomWackTroll]

Not trying to dispute the wrongness of it. Uncool. But. If you're a family dressing up for that picnic, why would not include your child? To me, it shows a lack of racism. If they truly see it as having been an issue of states' rights, and they're all dressing up, of course they would dress up all of their children. Barring not participating (which would have been the prudent thing to do), what would you have them do? Not include one of their sons? Dress him up as a slave instead? To me, it seems like a family being a family at their event, and treating all of their children the same.

And that whole "token black child/guy/girl" is so frigging annoying. I'd give my arm for another child....white, black, or rainbow. It's irritating as crap when it's implied that every fundie family that adopts a non-white child does so for the wrong reasons.

And I think it's just possible that Jasmine Baucham wanted to marry a black dude.

1. Again, unless you are a member of the VF/NCFIC cult, then I was not talking about you or your children, nor was I talking about "every fundie family."

2. So do I. My post was not about Jasmine, it was about the male members of VF/NCFIC.

ETA: Let me be clear about this. Here are my exact words:

"And please don’t get me started on the token black children who were/are adopted into the VF/NCFIC cult and forced to wear racist/imperialist costumes in their propaganda photos."

Adopted into the cult. Not adopted into this or that specific family. I am speaking here of a collective mindset and was using the word "adopted" in a more general sense, okay?

[nausicaa]

And I think it's just possible that Jasmine Baucham wanted to marry a black dude.

Not weighing in on whether Jasmine's lack of a courtship is a result of her race (I really don't know enough about the VF/Baucham crowd to say), I just wanted to say that Jasmine did have an essay on her blog in which she wrote about how she is attracted to men of all races and is open to marrying a man of any ethnic/racial background, though she does understand why some minorities prefer to marry someone who shares their experience.

Rereading it, I realized she addresses some racism in the culture. It's an interesting read:

allshehastosay.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/just-like-me-2/

[nausicaa]

And breaking news: as I was looking up that article above I started perusing Jasmine's social media. Looks like she is engaged as of June 11th! Can't believe none of the FJers has discovered this yet. Anyone know much about Phillip M Holmes? I can start a new thread.

(And he is black, for the record. And very handsome too, so good for Jasmine! Always had a soft spot for her).

[DomWackTroll]

And breaking news: as I was looking up that article above I started perusing Jasmine's social media. Looks like she is engaged as of June 11th! Can't believe none of the FJers has discovered this yet. Anyone know much about Phillip M Holmes? I can start a new thread.

There's a discussion about it on the "List of Unmarried Fundies" thread.

[Bethella]

And breaking news: as I was looking up that article above I started perusing Jasmine's social media. Looks like she is engaged as of June 11th! Can't believe none of the FJers has discovered this yet. Anyone know much about Phillip M Holmes? I can start a new thread.

It's mentioned in the unmarried fundies thread. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19705&start=360

[nausicaa]

There's a discussion about it on the "List of Unmarried Fundies" thread.

Ah, sorry about that!

[snarkopolis]

Um, no. There are a number of southerners who strongly denounce slavery while still appreciating the "states-rights" aspect of the Confederacy. VF sold a book called "One Blood" for instance. A lot of posters on FJ do not have this correctly pegged AT ALL. Kind of like the scene in the film Gettysburg where Longstreet says that he thinks they should have freed the slaves and then fired on Fort Sumter. You may not get that if you are a Yankee, but it's out there and makes sense to some.

And I have seen a better side of Peter, even in VF days.

I call Bullshit on that. It SOUNDS nice until you ask what states right they went to war over. The right to extend slavery west. That particular states right. Not taxes or voting or anything else, just that little gem. Once again the lack of critical thinking and asking the next question--What exactly are we fighting for? Please stop trying to 'splain this thinking. The Southern States didn't want the federal government to tell them that they couldn't have slaves. BTW the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves BELOW the MAson Dixon line so northern states could still have them. RIF. :angry-banghead:

[snarkopolis]

Not trying to dispute the wrongness of it. Uncool. But. If you're a family dressing up for that picnic, why would not include your child? To me, it shows a lack of racism. If they truly see it as having been an issue of states' rights, and they're all dressing up, of course they would dress up all of their children. Barring not participating (which would have been the prudent thing to do), what would you have them do? Not include one of their sons? Dress him up as a slave instead? To me, it seems like a family being a family at their event, and treating all of their children the same.

And that whole "token black child/guy/girl" is so frigging annoying. I'd give my arm for another child....white, black, or rainbow. It's irritating as crap when it's implied that every fundie family that adopts a non-white child does so for the wrong reasons.

And I think it's just possible that Jasmine Baucham wanted to marry a black dude.

If you have to be told how f**king insensitive and inappropriate for a black child to salute a Confederate soldier (We do all know that tConfederate soldiers were TRAITORS, right?) then I don't know where to go with you. IT is SO WRONG on so many levels. Let's salute someone who wishes to keep you as a subhuman, have you work for free, treat you like crap, disrespect your family and split it up, selling off parts like furniture, yeah because the family that adopted you respects your heritage. Yup, I understand now :angry-banghead:

[CloakNDagger]

BTW the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves BELOW the Mason Dixon line so northern states could still have them. RIF. :angry-banghead:

Yeah, because the North wasn't so much not-racist, either... It was political for most of the parties involved.

From: http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html it is clear that some of the states reasons for fighting were clearly racist or pro-slavery. At the same time, I still think that the Lincoln administration made wrong choices in how to handle it and deliberately so for political gain. That is more along the lines of what I understand Virginia to have seceded for, (http://www.constitution.org/csa/ordinan ... m#Virginia) and that is where I think most of the VF crowd I knew would fall... Certainly against anything but indentured, non-racial servanthood / slavery, but still more against a strong centralized government that willingly pushed past its constitutional limits.

I think that the best way to deal with this with people with regards to the South is to read to them from the original documents... For instance this document: (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp) from South Carolina does highlight the States rights concern while this document: (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html) with quotes like this:

While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all

and this:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun." and "That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states." (From Texas :shock:)

is certainly damning! :angry-banghead:

It's easy to assume someone to be racist, but if you were brought up in the South and firmly believed what your grandpa told you about your ancestors and wanted to believe it was about states rights, then you, too would be offended to be then branded a racist, especially if you fundamentally believed that your black neighbors were the same as you.

It is also clear to me now, that with all the apparent VF emphasis on original documents, the sources I and others read from were actually fairly selective on which original documents were quoted. :shock:

[formergothardite]

It wasn't really about state rights if you look closely. The southern states didn't want the northern states to have the right to decide that they couldn't vacation or travel in the northern states with their slaves. They wanted the American government to force the Northern states to recognize and protect Southern slavery in Northern states. So if a slave escaped to a state that didn't support slavery, the state should be forced to send it back to his or her master even if the state felt that they shouldn't. The state rights claim is a massive pile of racist bullshit in an attempt to glorify the "good old days" of the South.

The fact that VF claimed to lean on original documents yet selected the documents that glorified the old South and the Confederacy and ignored ones that did not shows a subtle form of racism. The horror of teaching black children to admire and respect the soldiers who were fighting to keep them enslaved is mindboggling.

In Virginia, by the way, they were supposed to vote to ratify the secession, but they made the Richmond the capital of the Confederacy and moved Confederate troops in before the ratification. The vote was not anonymous, so the pro-Confederate government would know the names of the people who voted to stay in the Union and many pro-Union supporters had had it made clear to them that if their names showed up voting to stay in the Union they might be killed or have something else horrible happen to them. And finally, they "OOPS!" totally "lost" most of the votes from the places that were pro-Union and the pro-Confederate governor just got to make up whatever he wanted for those counties. I would hardly say that running a secession like this is pro-state rights. If they were really pro-what the majority of the state wanted they would have made it a fair vote, but they didn't.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

If you have to be told how f**king insensitive and inappropriate for a black child to salute a Confederate soldier (We do all know that tConfederate soldiers were TRAITORS, right?) then I don't know where to go with you. IT is SO WRONG on so many levels. Let's salute someone who wishes to keep you as a subhuman, have you work for free, treat you like crap, disrespect your family and split it up, selling off parts like furniture, yeah because the family that adopted you respects your heritage. Yup, I understand now :angry-banghead:

I had to go back to see what you were talking about. I missed the salute photo, which looks very bizarre and inappropriate. Also looks more like an actual family, not adopted kids? Does anyone have a backstory for that pic? I was referring to the picture of the little boy with his friends(/family?) next to Scott. And that he is likely just being included and wanting to dress up like everyone else, and what would you have him wear in that instance? I was thinking that if his family actually believes that the war was not about slavery, then they might not see anything wrong with it. I'm not arguing it's right, just that it maybe wasn't intended to be harmful. But I see what CloakNDagger is saying, that this was just a Memorial Day event, and so could he could have been dressed in a number of different things, and he should have been.

ETA Now I see that I was all confused, I was combining the photo of the little boy in a PURITAN costume with someone's description of a little boy in a Confederate outfit. Brother, no wonder I was getting confused in my head. I see nothing wrong with that photo.