All Things Doug Phillips & VF, Including Lourdes's Lawsuit

[Elinor]

Da Fuq with Michael? Kid lucked out compared to his siblings!

Apparently Hellena and Curradong use the same baby naming book as the BRADRICKS!

I'm pretty sure Michael Courage goes by Courage, not Michael

[Coco]

Maybe Kelly and Peter are just really big fans of Firefly...?

The six Bradrick kids are:

Triumph Perseverance

Knox Defender

Loyal Cromwell

Geneva Constance

Michael Courage

Shepherd Thomas

Persey, Knox, Loyal, Genny, Cur, and Shep

What's next? Chance, Shadow and Sassy? :D

see this is why i defend PB -- he's obviously on a kool-aid IV :lol: :character-koolaid:

[ophelia]

So Kelly und Sippy Cup have six kids now. She is around 30, isn't she? She'll probably keep having babies for at least 10 years.. unless something happens first..

Didn't realize Monica and Blair were pregnant again.. Damn, those women are fertile.

[teachergirl]

so sad isn't it? Poor Kelly had to leave her family, move across country, all while being pregnant AGAIN. I know there is 2 years between these two but she must be so exhausted and worn out. Do you ever wonder if their doctors advise against more pregnancies? Do you think they would listen?

6 kids in 8 years for Kelly and 4 in 4 for Blair/Monica. ugh.

[Maxwell]

Maybe Kelly and Peter are just really big fans of Firefly...?

The six Bradrick kids are:

Triumph Perseverance

Knox Defender

Loyal Cromwell

Geneva Constance

Michael Courage

Shepherd Thomas

I actually feel a bit sorry for Sippy. We've all done dumb stuff in our lives... stuff we'd rather forget. In Sippy's case, if he's really waking up to life and realizing what he's been a part of, he'll be reminded of his dumbness every time he speaks or writes his own children's names. Wow. There's some humble pie for ya.

I'm pretty sure that the sole reason for PB naming his kids the way he did was because DPIAT was all about naming with a purpose, as evidenced by the names of DPIAT's own children. Seems I also remeber a DPIAT talk related to that topic as well.

[nokidsmom]

The three oldest lil Bradricks need to sue their parents. Those names suck.

I can totally see those three in particular changing their names legally. I certainly hope that at the very least Loyal can get rid of the name Cromwell as a middle name. Who names their kid after Cromwell?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Those are really bad names. Especially the older 3. They don't even have a normal middle name they can go by if they grow to hate their weird first names.

[CloakNDagger]

Yeah, I have to agree with Othello on this. Was Peter a "con man"? No. But was he "clueless"? Hardly. Let's not forget that this was a grown man who totally accepted VF teachings that included the glorification of slavery in the Confederacy,

Um, no. There are a number of southerners who strongly denounce slavery while still appreciating the "states-rights" aspect of the Confederacy. VF sold a book called "One Blood" for instance. A lot of posters on FJ do not have this correctly pegged AT ALL. Kind of like the scene in the film Gettysburg where Longstreet says that he thinks they should have freed the slaves and then fired on Fort Sumter. You may not get that if you are a Yankee, but it's out there and makes sense to some.

And I have seen a better side of Peter, even in VF days.

[Maxwell]

Um, no. There are a number of southerners who strongly denounce slavery while still appreciating the "states-rights" aspect of the Confederacy. VF sold a book called "One Blood" for instance. A lot of posters on FJ do not have this correctly pegged AT ALL. Kind of like the scene in the film Gettysburg where Longstreet says that he things they should have freed the slaves and then fired on Fort Sumter. You may not get that if you are a Yankee, but it's out there and makes sense to some.

And I have seen a better side of Peter, even in VF days.

I have to agree. Of the poeple I know who were involved with VF, NONE were/are racists. In fact, many have adopted Black/Bi-racial children -- because they wanted more children, becuase they wanted to spend their money wisely, becuse they DIDN'T CARE about skin color. These folks truely view people as people, not black/white/hispanic/asian people.

As to the Confederacy, CnD is also correct. The Civil War was about a lot of things... slavery included. It *is* possible to agree with the Confederacy's stance on states rights and NOT be pro-slavery.

[Talitha Cumi]

The three oldest lil Bradricks need to sue their parents. Those names suck.

I think Knox sounds fairly normal. Kind of Hollywood-ish, actually-- doesn't Angelina Jolie have a kid named Maddox?

Triumph and Loyal though. Ugh. If Triumph ever escapes into the world, he will never live down having the same name as a foul-mouthed dog puppet. Maybe he could go by Percy. Not great, but an improvement. Loyal could go by the nickname Crom, which is kind of hilarious if you're familiar with Conan the Barbarian.

[WonderingInWA]

I think Knox sounds fairly normal. Kind of Hollywood-ish, actually-- doesn't Angelina Jolie have a kid named Maddox?

Triumph and Loyal though. Ugh. If Triumph ever escapes into the world, he will never live down having the same name as a foul-mouthed dog puppet. Maybe he could go by Percy. Not great, but an improvement. Loyal could go by the nickname Crom, which is kind of hilarious if you're familiar with Conan the Barbarian.

When they first had Triumph, they had a web page with a photo of Peter, Kelly, and the baby announcing his arrival. And on that page, Peter explained the baby's name and he was pretty thorough, but now I can't find it (who is good at the wayback machine?).

[gustava]

I have to agree. Of the poeple I know who were involved with VF, NONE were/are racists. In fact, many have adopted Black/Bi-racial children -- because they wanted more children, becuase they wanted to spend their money wisely, becuse they DIDN'T CARE about skin color. These folks truely view people as people, not black/white/hispanic/asian people.

As to the Confederacy, CnD is also correct. The Civil War was about a lot of things... slavery included. It *is* possible to agree with the Confederacy's stance on states rights and NOT be pro-slavery.

As someone born and reared in Virginia and South Carolina, I will state without equivocation that the Civil War was about slavery and that anyone who thinks otherwise (including my kinfolk who adore their "Rebel" flags) are either uninformed or delusional.

[CloakNDagger]

As someone born and reared in Virginia and South Carolina, I will state without equivocation that the Civil War was about slavery and that anyone who thinks otherwise (including my kinfolk who adore their "Rebel" flags) are either uninformed or delusional.

These days that is irrelevant.

South Carolina - yeah, they seem pretty racist at times and if I'm not mistaken their secession documents did reference slavery pretty strongly.

Virginia OTOH voted to NOT join the Confederacy initially, so it really is more complex than that. The most famous southern general, Robt. E. Lee wasn't fighting for slavery, that's pretty much indisputable, he was fighting for the independence of Virginia from the federal government overstepping it's Constitutional authority. It was only after Lincoln called for troops to invade that they seceded. There was a significant portion of the South that was NOT fighting over slavery, but about the Federal government's boundaries.

Slavery was wrong, and some southerners were absolutely fighting over slavery, but it was a political deal as well. It probably could have been ended peacefully like in England but Lincoln seemed intent on going to war over it and the South obliged him. I'm not saying that slavery wasn't an issue, just that it was not the CORE issue. The core issue was whether or not the Feds had the authority / jurisdiction, etc... to tell the state one way or another.

Oh, and in regards to VF, there were key members who worked there who were staunch Yankees, so the culture wasn't as strong in that regard as you might think.

[ThisOlGirl]

I think Knox sounds fairly normal. Kind of Hollywood-ish, actually-- doesn't Angelina Jolie have a kid named Maddox?

Triumph and Loyal though. Ugh. If Triumph ever escapes into the world, he will never live down having the same name as a foul-mouthed dog puppet. Maybe he could go by Percy. Not great, but an improvement. Loyal could go by the nickname Crom, which is kind of hilarious if you're familiar with Conan the Barbarian.

Angelina Jolie's and Brad Pitt's youngest son is named Knox, I believe. I think he was named after Brad's grandfather?

[DomWackTroll]

Wow, looks like some are forgetting things like, oh, Doug Phillips’ ode to Robert Louis Dabney, who called Southern slavery "the best possible social relation between white and black Americans."

Here’s a helpful reminder of how Vision Forum romanticized the Old South:

earlyamericanists.com/2013/11/20/godly-heritage-and-plantation-chic-the-case-of-vision-forum/

And please don’t get me started on the token black children who were/are adopted into the VF/NCFIC cult and forced to wear racist/imperialist costumes in their propaganda photos. I may vomit.

I’d be happy to show you the photo of a little African-American boy wearing a Confederate uniform at Scott Brown’s Memorial Day picnic, too, but that has been conveniently scrubbed from the Vision Forum website.

Hey, and while we're at it, why don't we ask Jasmine Baucham how "color blind" the people of Vision Forum are? Any white suitors out of all the hundreds of young men you met in that organization, Jasmine? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[CloakNDagger]

Wow, looks like some are forgetting things like, oh, Doug Phillips’ ode to Robert Louis Dabney, who called Southern slavery "the best possible social relation between white and black Americans."

Here’s a helpful reminder of how Vision Forum romanticized the Old South:

earlyamericanists.com/2013/11/20/godly-heritage-and-plantation-chic-the-case-of-vision-forum/

And please don’t get me started on the token black children who were/are adopted into the VF/NCFIC cult and forced to wear racist/imperialist costumes in their propaganda photos. I may vomit.

I’d be happy to show you the photo of a little African-American boy wearing a Confederate uniform at Scott Brown’s Memorial Day picnic, too, but that has been conveniently scrubbed from the Vision Forum website.

Hey, and while we're at it, why don't we ask Jasmine Baucham how "color blind" the people of Vision Forum are? Any white suitors out of all the hundreds of young men you met in that organization, Jasmine? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Ugh. That's not a helpful reminder, it's a hack piece that even almost acknowledges that truth that VF actually didn't intend to promote the racist aspect of some of the men they appreciated, they just want to prove guilt by association, and trust me, every one of us can be caught on that. There's truth and half-truth mixed there in that link you provided. For instance, this paragraph:

And the Vision Forum “Beautiful Girlhood†doll collection is downright astonishing in its historical tone-deafness. It features four dolls—two black, two white. Two dolls are named Liberty and Jubilee. They’re both white. One of the black dolls is simply named Abigail. The other black doll? Her name is Fidelia, helpfully translated as “Faithful One.â€[5]

That's just stupid and inaccurate, and shows how admittedly some things look different from the outside looking in, but I think some people WANT to read this stuff into the group without actually understanding their true thoughts.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that they were thinking of a "faithful" black servant, I think that was just an ode to the next Phillips girl - Faith. Liberty had a doll named after her, Jubilee, too, and Faith was next in line. Simple. I firmly believe that If more "black" people had been interested, they would have done just fine in close VF circles. However, it's probably more a case of the group's being blind to how other people think. It brings the NCFIC "Christian Rap" controversy and this particular piece...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb7Qmf9GwY0

I don't now how to read DPIAT anymore on some of this stuff (well, maybe I do) but for the guys working for him, I sincerely believe that they didn't realize how they came across to others (reference to the video above) "would you quote Columbus to Cherokees, or Cortez to Aztecs?"

[Othello]

I'm not saying that slavery wasn't an issue, just that it was not the CORE issue. The core issue was whether or not the Feds had the authority / jurisdiction, etc... to tell the state one way or another.

Oh, and in regards to VF, there were key members who worked there who were staunch Yankees, so the culture wasn't as strong in that regard as you might think.

That's a quite true, although I still think that slavery was a bigger issue than southerners like to admit; if you study the politics between the Revolution and Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression, to some) the slavery issue was central to a lot of the goings-on. There are definitely a wide range of motives involved, but to downplay slavery and say it isn't relevant to the actual history, that merely displays an ignorance (deliberate or otherwise) of the events and politics that led up to the war in the first place. Not THE core issue, perhaps, but if the politics surrounding the war mean anything, it was *a* core issue.

While I'd say the Civil War issue is not nearly as relevant to VF/NCFIC people today, it still concerns me deeply that a lot of the teachers they revere, R. L. Dabney et al, were incredibly racist. Dabney & Co. twisted scripture to defend slavery etc., not to mention the books they sell—have you read any of the Elsie Dinsmore books, or Henty and Ballantyne? At least in Ballantyne it's not exclusive to "white"/"black" duality—anyone except an Englishman (including many European cultures) is portrayed as stupid, backward, bumbling, caricatured—you get the point. So yes, whether or not they intended it to begin with, they're stuffing their brains with racism.

P.S. Next time a hardcore VF'er/NCFIC'er tries to argue about the Civil War (if you spend much time around them it won't take long for it to come up), ask: "God is perfectly sovereign and orders all events according to His good pleasure, does He not?" Their theology prevents them from saying anything other than "of course!" The nail in the coffin: "In that case, God clearly was on the side of the Union, so why are you still complaining?" Quod erat demonstrandum.

[CloakNDagger]

That's a quite true, although I still think that slavery was a bigger issue than southerners like to admit; if you study the politics between the Revolution and Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression, to some) the slavery issue was central to a lot of the goings-on. There are definitely a wide range of motives involved, but to downplay slavery and say it isn't relevant to the actual history, that merely displays an ignorance (deliberate or otherwise) of the events and politics that led up to the war in the first place. Not THE core issue, perhaps, but if the politics surrounding the war mean anything, it was *a* core issue.

No disagreement. Just that it didn't HAVE to mean going to war. England solved it with a lot less bloodshed. The South went to war because the solution appeared worse to them than the problem that I think many of them acknowledged.

While I'd say the Civil War issue is not nearly as relevant to VF/NCFIC people today, it still concerns me deeply that a lot of the teachers they revere, R. L. Dabney et al, were incredibly racist. Dabney & Co. twisted scripture to defend slavery etc., not to mention the books they sell—have you read any of the Elsie Dinsmore books, or Henty and Ballantyne? At least in Ballantyne it's not exclusive to "white"/"black" duality—anyone except an Englishman (including many European cultures) is portrayed as stupid, backward, bumbling, caricatured—you get the point. So yes, whether or not they intended it to begin with, they're stuffing their brains with racism.

VF actually dropped books including one of the Henty's that were demonstrably racist. They picked up NEARLY the entire Henty line, but not all of them, and when one that didn't get adequately screened was pointed out, it was dropped. There were a few other books like that. Elsie Dinsmore - :ew: however, I think there were various reasons why some books were carried in the catalog for as long as they were - including some books that weren't that great (and there was internal discussion about it). Some of the stuff that VF carried wasn't popular with people that worked there at all... it was actually a pretty diverse group of folks that worked at the office.

P.S. Next time a hardcore VF'er/NCFIC'er tries to argue about the Civil War (if you spend much time around them it won't take long for it to come up), ask: "God is perfectly sovereign and orders all events according to His good pleasure, does He not?" Their theology prevents them from saying anything other than "of course!" The nail in the coffin: "In that case, God clearly was on the side of the Union, so why are you still complaining?" Quod erat demonstrandum.

Um, no. God even uses the "wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4) and sometimes judges the Israelites by the hand of the wicked Assyrians, so no, that doesn't confound them.

[DomWackTroll]

Ugh. That's not a helpful reminder, it's a hack piece that even almost acknowledges that truth that VF actually didn't intend to promote the racist aspect of some of the men they appreciated, they just want to prove guilt by association, and trust me, every one of us can be caught on that. There's truth and half-truth mixed there in that link you provided. For instance, this paragraph:

That's just stupid and inaccurate, and shows how admittedly some things look different from the outside looking in, but I think some people WANT to read this stuff into the group without actually understanding their true thoughts.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that they were thinking of a "faithful" black servant, I think that was just an ode to the next Phillips girl - Faith. Liberty had a doll named after her, Jubilee, too, and Faith was next in line. Simple. I firmly believe that If more "black" people had been interested, they would have done just fine in close VF circles. However, it's probably more a case of the group's being blind to how other people think. It brings the NCFIC "Christian Rap" controversy and this particular piece...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb7Qmf9GwY0

I don't now how to read DPIAT anymore on some of this stuff (well, maybe I do) but for the guys working for him, I sincerely believe that they didn't realize how they came across to others (reference to the video above) "would you quote Columbus to Cherokees, or Cortez to Aztecs?"

Of course you do. Come on, knock it off with all this "Gee whiz, he didn't seem racist from the inside." He was the undisputed leader of this group and he made his opinions crystal clear. If the "guys working for him" didn't know he was a racist, well, they should have. How many poems about Dabney do you have to read? How many white kids dressed up as "Indians" do you need to see? How many Confederate uniforms? How many photo ops to Haiti to exploit black children? How many Dan Horn documentaries in which he asserts how happy those simple darkies were in their comfy little slave cabins?

You can't possibly be that naive, and neither can the people who worked for Doug. They were there because they held the same beliefs he did.

[CloakNDagger]

Of course you do. Come on, knock it off with all this "Gee whiz, he didn't seem racist from the inside." He was the undisputed leader of this group and he made his opinions crystal clear. If the "guys working for him" didn't know he was a racist, well, they should have. How many poems about Dabney do you have to read? How many white kids dressed up as "Indians" do you need to see? How many Confederate uniforms? How many photo ops to Haiti to exploit black children? How many Dan Horn documentaries in which he asserts how happy those simple darkies were in their comfy little slave cabins?

You can't possibly be that naive, and neither can the people who worked for Doug. They were there because they held the same beliefs he did.

He went OUT of his WAY to be friendly to most everyone including some back people that worked for him. He is a manipulator for sure, but I'm not convinced he's actually a racist. I think he took a look around him and took things that he thought would appeal to a segment of the population, borrowed stuff from others, and packaged it all very pretty and sold it. The fact that they sold the Fidelia doll (actually, it was the Abigail doll that was the black doll and Fidelia was the Hispanic doll) was I think actually trying to prove that they weren't racist more than anything. There was a deliberate attempt to draw in more blacks and Hispanics with those two dolls. I don't think you do that if you are actually a racist. Stupid, willingly blind to Dabney's bad side, yeah, but deliberately racist, I don't think so.

Some of the stuff VF sold was on flip sides of the coin. We sell stuff that is promoting fathers being entrepreneurs and being "family shepherds" and then on the flip side we sell Endurance which is a book about a dad going off for years on his adventures away from home. There were blatant and obvious contradictions around that a lot of people didn't notice.

[CloakNDagger]

Here's the deal. Criticism is needed and appropriate but it is also best accurate. If I don't think it's accurate, I'm not afraid to say so. Inaccurate criticism only entrenches the belief that they are persecuted. It also does not help one get to the bottom of the problems.

[Maxwell]

And please don’t get me started on the token black children who were/are adopted into the VF/NCFIC cult and forced to wear racist/imperialist costumes in their propaganda photos. I may vomit.

I have to take issue with the 'token black children' comment. Adoption is a big deal -- I know, I've done it -- and I get a little steamed when someone suggests that my daugher is a `token black child`. We set out to adopt, period. Once the hurdles of paperwork and home studies and finding an adoption attourney were cleared we were asked what kind of child were were looking to adopt. Like it or not, there is a price tag attached to the adoption -- the lowest cost is for black males... then black females... then hispanic (male/femail) and on up the line with the most expensive being white children. Our stance was not, "oh, lets get a token black child -- we'll look good and it's cheap!" but rather, "We don't care about color, we'd like to maybe do this again if we can, there seems to be a need as it's a supply/demand thing, so yeah, a black male is fine, we just want more children." Of all the mixed race adoptive families I know -- and it's many -- NONE have adopted 'token black children', even the VF following ones.

I’d be happy to show you the photo of a little African-American boy wearing a Confederate uniform at Scott Brown’s Memorial Day picnic, too, but that has been conveniently scrubbed from the Vision Forum website.

Ummm... there *were* free blacks that fought FOR the Confederacy.

Hey, and while we're at it, why don't we ask Jasmine Baucham how "color blind" the people of Vision Forum are? Any white suitors out of all the hundreds of young men you met in that organization, Jasmine? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

You know... I know many eligible white ladies who are still waiting for a suitor... it may have NOTHING to do with the fact that Jasmine Baucham is black. Maybe it has to do with young men being intimidated by her rather well known father and the expectations (real or perceived) that come with dating courting his daughter.

All that said, I'm not saying that there weren't racist people involved at VF... I'm sure there were... because there are racist people all over the place in many organizations and to say otherwise would be a lie but I, personally, did not see it.

[gustava]

http://civilwargazette.wordpress.com/20 ... nfederacy/

[gustava]

Here's the deal. Criticism is needed and appropriate but it is also best accurate. If I don't think it's accurate, I'm not afraid to say so. Inaccurate criticism only entrenches the belief that they are persecuted. It also does not help one get to the bottom of the problems.

Reason does not work with those who are entrenched, so I have no response to you.

[DomWackTroll]

He went OUT of his WAY to be friendly to most everyone including some back people that worked for him. He is a manipulator for sure, but I'm not convinced he's actually a racist. I think he took a look around him and took things that he thought would appeal to a segment of the population, borrowed stuff from others, and packaged it all very pretty and sold it. The fact that they sold the Fidelia doll (actually, it was the Abigail doll that was the black doll and Fidelia was the Hispanic doll) was I think actually trying to prove that they weren't racist more than anything. There was a deliberate attempt to draw in more blacks and Hispanics with those two dolls. I don't think you do that if you are actually a racist. Stupid, willingly blind to Dabney's bad side, yeah, but deliberately racist, I don't think so.

Some of the stuff VF sold was on flip sides of the coin. We sell stuff that is promoting fathers being entrepreneurs and being "family shepherds" and then on the flip side we sell Endurance which is a book about a dad going off for years on his adventures away from home. There were blatant and obvious contradictions around that a lot of people didn't notice.

Exactly. Trying to prove they weren't racist. The fact that they were in a position to have to "try to prove they weren't racist" doesn't say anything to you?

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