Is Jana Dugger Courting?

[Ella]

Jill just doesn't seem to be the type to outright lie. Maybe she justifies playing by TLC's story because she is an actor acting as "Jill Duggar" on the show? Like "Jill Duggar" was in love with someone she NEVER met because that's the script.

[Rescinded and Mended]

That's exactly why I can't get behind the idea that Derrick will lead Jill away for fundiedom that so many fjers rally behind. Any man who didn't grow up ATI and chooses it as an adult--a man who pursues a woman raised in that environment, and willingly follows the ridiculous courtship rules to marry her, HAS to be a controlling, misogynistic asshole at his core. Don't get me wrong...I don't doubt that Derrick will be perfectly wonderful to Jill, but that's because she'll be the perfect fundie wife. If she were to ever challenge what he thinks is his rightful place in their marriage, though? All bets are off. Who knows what kind of husband he'll be then.

What else can possibly be the attraction for men? Why would they look at the lifestyle, read what they believe about a woman's place, and decide that's the life they want if they truly were good men who want a partner in life and not just a woman who makes life easy for him and sexually performs on command without complaints.

A bit off topic, but the bolded part of your comment reminded me of Edit Hahn Beer, a Jewish woman who married a German Nazi officer during World War II to save herself during a time when Jews were being imprisoned in concentration camps. Her husband, Werner, was decent to her as long as she was the perfect, compliant housewife, and Edith had no probem playing the part because she was afraid of being exposed, since her husband knew she was Jewish. Later, when the tides of war turned against the Nazis, and her husband was imprisoned by the Russians, Edith fought to get him released. By then, she was working as a judge and it was no longer a secret that she was Jewish. Interestingly, Edith used Werner to hide her identity and save herself, but she did actually love him. Verner came home to a strong woman who was no longer afraid to assert herself. He became cruel and abusive when she refused to submit to him, and Edith divorced him.

It's an interesting lesson in how a shift in power can affect a marriage, especially when one spouse doesn't perceive the other to be an equal from the start. I truly hope this isn't the case for Jill and Derick, but it is a possibility.

[for_the_Kitties]

A bit off topic, but the bolded part of your comment reminded me of Edit Hahn Beer, a Jewish woman who married a German Nazi officer during World War II to save herself during a time when Jews were being imprisoned in concentration camps. Her husband, Werner, was decent to her as long as she was the perfect, compliant housewife, and Edith had no probem playing the part because she was afraid of being exposed, since her husband knew she was Jewish. Later, when the tides of war turned against the Nazis, and her husband was imprisoned by the Russians, Edith fought to get him released. By then, she was working as a judge and it was no longer a secret that she was Jewish. Interestingly, Edith used Werner to hide her identity and save herself, but she did actually love him. Verner came home to a strong woman who was no longer afraid to assert herself. He became cruel and abusive when she refused to submit to him, and Edith divorced him.

It's an interesting lesson in how a shift in power can affect a marriage, especially when one spouse doesn't perceive the other to be an equal from the start. I truly hope this isn't the case for Jill and Derick, but it is a possibility.

R&M, you bring up some excellent points. I completely agree that power shifts and egos can effect marriages (usually for the bad). I think one of the strongest pillars in Duggardom/Gothardom is that there NEVER should be a power struggle between man and wife. The man is always in charge and the woman submits. So long as Jill and Derick follow the ATI lifestyle, the power will always be with Derick.

The main reason the Duggars and other ATI-ers are so against women working is that they feel the entire feminist movement and women working full time is what has led to the downfall of marriages. They perceive working women as being tarnished from the wholesome lifestyle they should live and that us heathen working women are disillusioned and have been led astray - which is why its our fault that the divorce rate is so high. They proselytize women into believing they should stay home, let their husband rule their life and have a gazillion kids, and that this will solve all their problems.

I know many women that are the "pants wearer" in their family and their marriages are great. Even my fiance and I understand that its an equal marriage but some decisions are best made by me - especially financial ones.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I still firmly believe that Jill and Derick met at the caroling event, but Jim Bob didn't meet him. Therefore, it would have been improper for Jill to have met Derick at the event. I think the plan to have "Jim Bob introduce them" was hatched between the two of them, and followed through with him "asking for a prayer partner." I fully believe the two of them intended to never reveal the truth but one of his friends or someone else that was there said "Wait, didn't you too meet at the caroling thing" in front of her family. At which point, I'm sure there was some flustered response about "wait you were there?" as they tried to pretend that they didn't remember meeting each other. And that's where the "we met but didn't know it" story came from.

[Toothfairy]

R&M, you bring up some excellent points. I completely agree that power shifts and egos can effect marriages (usually for the bad). I think one of the strongest pillars in Duggardom/Gothardom is that there NEVER should be a power struggle between man and wife. The man is always in charge and the woman submits. So long as Jill and Derick follow the ATI lifestyle, the power will always be with Derick.

The main reason the Duggars and other ATI-ers are so against women working is that they feel the entire feminist movement and women working full time is what has led to the downfall of marriages. They perceive working women as being tarnished from the wholesome lifestyle they should live and that us heathen working women are disillusioned and have been led astray - which is why its our fault that the divorce rate is so high. They proselytize women into believing they should stay home, let their husband rule their life and have a gazillion kids, and that this will solve all their problems.

I know many women that are the "pants wearer" in their family and their marriages are great. Even my fiance and I understand that its an equal marriage but some decisions are best made by me - especially financial ones.

Where do fundies come up with these things? Do they do research? Because I would love to see these numbers. Why blame women? Why must the woman submit and be uneducated and stay at home? During WWI women worked.

[for_the_Kitties]

Where do fundies come up with these things? Do they do research? Because I would love to see these numbers. Why blame women? Why must the woman submit and be uneducated and stay at home? During WWI women worked.

They don't need research. They don't need proof. They are in a cult and blindly follow whatever rules they are told and believe what they are told to believe. There is no logic or reason to their lifestyle.

[RosyDaisy]

Jill just doesn't seem to be the type to outright lie. Maybe she justifies playing by TLC's story because she is an actor acting as "Jill Duggar" on the show? Like "Jill Duggar" was in love with someone she NEVER met because that's the script.

I don't think she lied. I think TLC did some creative editing and messed around with the timeline.

[lascuba]

Where do fundies come up with these things? Do they do research? Because I would love to see these numbers. Why blame women? Why must the woman submit and be uneducated and stay at home? During WWI women worked.

The thing is though, they're "right" in a sense. It's really easy for marriages to not end in divorce when only one person's happiness matters...when one partner gets their way in all things and the other is either willing to do what their spouse wants or unable for whatever reason to leave. Every time I spend time with my grandmother and other widows her age I'm once again reminded why people who complain about high divorce rates are idiots. Those women had to put up with all kinds of bullshit, because they were from a time and place where being a wife and mother was all they were allowed, and divorce was not an option. That's the thing with fundies--they insist that "death do us part" is the ideal, without caring about the details.

[Toothfairy]

I still firmly believe that Jill and Derick met at the caroling event, but Jim Bob didn't meet him. Therefore, it would have been improper for Jill to have met Derick at the event. I think the plan to have "Jim Bob introduce them" was hatched between the two of them, and followed through with him "asking for a prayer partner." I fully believe the two of them intended to never reveal the truth but one of his friends or someone else that was there said "Wait, didn't you too meet at the caroling thing" in front of her family. At which point, I'm sure there was some flustered response about "wait you were there?" as they tried to pretend that they didn't remember meeting each other. And that's where the "we met but didn't know it" story came from.

I think they were running out of ideas to do. So the new story lines this season was courtships for their daughters(why not sons as well) makes good tv. I don't think Jim Bob is telling the whole truth about how Jill and Derrick met.

[Toothfairy]

They don't need research. They don't need proof. They are in a cult and blindly follow whatever rules they are told and believe what they are told to believe. There is no logic or reason to their lifestyle.

So how can be stay bullshit like this without backing it up? Dating leads to divorce. Kissing leads to sex. Education leads to rebellious children. A couple is happier and will never get divorce if the wives submit and use no birth control. How low does your self esteem have to be.

[halcionne]

I still firmly believe that Jill and Derick met at the caroling event, but Jim Bob didn't meet him. Therefore, it would have been improper for Jill to have met Derick at the event. I think the plan to have "Jim Bob introduce them" was hatched between the two of them, and followed through with him "asking for a prayer partner." I fully believe the two of them intended to never reveal the truth but one of his friends or someone else that was there said "Wait, didn't you too meet at the caroling thing" in front of her family. At which point, I'm sure there was some flustered response about "wait you were there?" as they tried to pretend that they didn't remember meeting each other. And that's where the "we met but didn't know it" story came from.

It just occurred to me that if carolers from a church the Duggars were familiar with and whose doctrine was acceptable to them showed up to carol at their house, they would probably be welcomed in for fellowship and hot chocolate, etc, maybe even stay for the evening. If this is how it went down, Jill and Derick could've met briefly and hit it off without it being creepy. Just saying.

I don't have a dog in this race, I swear; I just enjoy kinking it around from various points of view. :geek:

[Emme]

But do you think Jill would outright lie by saying, "I think I'm in love with someone I never met"? Could she intend to be saying "...I never 'officially' met"?

I think you mean, could she purposed to be saying... (it makes me cringe every time one of the girls says that)

heh.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

It just occurred to me that if carolers from a church the Duggars were familiar with and whose doctrine was acceptable to them showed up to carol at their house, they would probably be welcomed in for fellowship and hot chocolate, etc, maybe even stay for the evening. If this is how it went down, Jill and Derick could've met briefly and hit it off without it being creepy. Just saying.

I don't have a dog in this race, I swear; I just enjoy kinking it around from various points of view. :geek:

He was with a Southern Baptist Church. I'm sure they were very chummy. And, I also have no doubt that there was some fellowship afterwards. It would be weird to drive 20-45 minutes (depending on where the Church was) to sing at their house and then leave. I also don't believe that it was just the Duggars the carolers were singing to. I bet the whole home church was there. And with that many people, it would be very easy for the two of them to have started talking and Jim Bob to have not noticed/remembered.

[3 ring circus]

A bit off topic, but the bolded part of your comment reminded me of Edit Hahn Beer, a Jewish woman who married a German Nazi officer during World War II to save herself during a time when Jews were being imprisoned in concentration camps. Her husband, Werner, was decent to her as long as she was the perfect, compliant housewife, and Edith had no probem playing the part because she was afraid of being exposed, since her husband knew she was Jewish. Later, when the tides of war turned against the Nazis, and her husband was imprisoned by the Russians, Edith fought to get him released. By then, she was working as a judge and it was no longer a secret that she was Jewish. Interestingly, Edith used Werner to hide her identity and save herself, but she did actually love him. Verner came home to a strong woman who was no longer afraid to assert herself. He became cruel and abusive when she refused to submit to him, and Edith divorced him.

It's an interesting lesson in how a shift in power can affect a marriage, especially when one spouse doesn't perceive the other to be an equal from the start. I truly hope this isn't the case for Jill and Derick, but it is a possibility.

I read this book for a few months and it was an awesome book. I highly recommend it to everyone.

I think Derrick is fundie. I think he, at least has been portrayed to be, is a little fundie lite, but still a fundie. I hope it works out for them. They truly seem to love each other.