Dangers of Fundie approach to female sexuality

[docmom]

I found this blog through 'Catholic all Year' (which I find horribly fascinating). It's written by a young woman (early 20's) who was brought up "evangelical" and converted to what sounds like fairly fundie catholicism. BUT, she has a serious problem which she labels a "sexual addiction"

This post gets personal, and has been in the making for more than four years. It’s long, but I hope it is worth it, especially for women struggling with sexual sin.

Four years ago was when I finally told someone about IT.

I told my best friend, the girl who would later be my godmother when I converted. I alluded to IT during one of our long weekly chats, but wouldn’t say IT, or really admit IT.

What is this terrible secret:

She masturbates

The post is just so unbelievably sad. She's had one "Dating" relationship in her life. She allowed the guy to kiss her and after a few dates it sounds like some petting went on- but no actual sex. After the relationship ended her "addiction" to masturbation worsened from a couple of times a week to daily. She beats herself up unmercifully about this:

What we did during those four hours haunts me every day. My old fantasies were only based on my imagination and the ideas porn gave me. Having experience opened up a whole new world, and instead of stumbling a few times a week, it became a few times a day over the next two months.

The day after those hours this man and I shared in his dark bedroom with the company of two harmless movies I might never be able to bring myself to actually watch, I lost my job.

He worked that entire day, so it was two days later that he called me and I told him the news, that I lost my job and was moving in with my parents five hours away. We split.

I went to confession a week and a half later, then spiraled downward. I stopped going to mass because I was in a state of mortal sin that I couldn’t bring myself to confess.

Plus, I was mad at God for taking my job away, my income away, my independence away, this man away, for how my dad lost his job three weeks before I did. I was mad at myself for using another person, for letting myself become a sex object, for hurting my future husband.

This perfectly normal young woman feels she is somehow unredeemably wicked because of the twisted sexuality teachings of fundieism. It's just so sad. If she had been exposed to a normal view of sexuality she'd be so much happier with life and herself.

Blog: wanderingconvert.tumblr.com/

[latraviata]

I found this blog through 'Catholic all Year' (which I find horribly fascinating). It's written by a young woman (early 20's) who was brought up "evangelical" and converted to what sounds like fairly fundie catholicism. BUT, she has a serious problem which she labels a "sexual addiction"

What is this terrible secret:

She masturbates

The post is just so unbelievably sad. She's had one "Dating" relationship in her life. She allowed the guy to kiss her and after a few dates it sounds like some petting went on- but no actual sex. After the relationship ended her "addiction" to masturbation worsened from a couple of times a week to daily. She beats herself up unmercifully about this:

This perfectly normal young woman feels she is somehow unredeemably wicked because of the twisted sexuality teachings of fundieism. It's just so sad. If she had been exposed to a normal view of sexuality she'd be so much happier with life and herself.

Blog: wanderingconvert.tumblr.com/

Sad, very sad indeed.

[Rebelwife]

It is so sad that her perception of her sexuality has been so twisted, not to mention her ideas of forgiveness. :(

I left the Catholic church years ago and was never fundie while I was in it, but any priest she talked to would tell her she is not in a state of mortal sin and that absolution is, for lack of a better word, "absolute." (Not that I think masturbation is wrong in any possible way, just that she does but can't feel "forgiven.")

[FundieWatcher]

Interesting and sad. I don't think protestant fundies really talk about solo sex..I don't think the DPIAT, Scott Brown, Duggars, or Kelly Crawfords of the world ever talk about if you can or cannot masturbate. Now that I think about, it is surprising since they talk constantly about everything else to do with sex.

[jerkit]

Woah. I want to give this woman a hug.

[Georgiana]

In my personal experience with Catholicism, they are real big on the Madonna and the Whore dichotomy for women. An unfortunate side-effect of Virgin Mary veneration. To give an example, Virgins are considered holier/closer to God than Holy Women. So as a woman, you automatically lose some of your holiness upon having sex. This is not the case for men, who can be holy in other ways.

For men, it is acceptable and often encouraged to find a middle ground in which they accept their sexuality and sexual nature as part of God's design, but do not let it control them or lead them to sin. It's an urge, much the same as anger. Anger itself is not bad, but letting anger control you can lead you to sin. Same thing with sex: it's normal, it's not bad, but it can lead you to sin. For men.

TECHNICALLY this should be the same for women as there is no catechism that excludes them, but in practice it is not, in my experience. Women who accept they are sexual beings and have sexual urges are seen as sluts. There are two acceptable paradigms: the virgin mother, who fulfills her role as a mother and only has sex to please her husband because otherwise she has no interest in sex and would remain a virgin; and the whore, who is a sexual being, derives pleasure from sex, and may have sexual needs that are uniquely hers and differ from her partner's.

tl;dr: Catholicism doesn't really allow women to be sexual. It should. The doctrine is there, and men are accepted as sexual beings. However, in practice, women are often shamed if they explore their sexuality, even if they do so sinlessly.

This is what I've observed from growing up Catholic and attending 12 years of Catholic school. I'd be interested to see if the experiences of other Catholics here differ.

[SPHASH]

I would think masturbation would be much less of a sin than intercourse. You can't get pregnant, get an STD, or break up a marriage by playing with yourself.

[docmom]

Interesting and sad. I don't think protestant fundies really talk about solo sex..I don't think the DPIAT, Scott Brown, Duggars, or Kelly Crawfords of the world ever talk about if you can or cannot masturbate. Now that I think about, it is surprising since they talk constantly about everything else to do with sex.

She does mention this:

And because of my upbringing, my culture, and how Christians deal with sexuality, I honestly thought I was the only woman who struggled with this. Any other time masturbation was mentioned, it was about men.

Because, women don't get sexual urges, right?

[snuggles911]

I found this blog through 'Catholic all Year' (which I find horribly fascinating). It's written by a young woman (early 20's) who was brought up "evangelical" and converted to what sounds like fairly fundie catholicism. BUT, she has a serious problem which she labels a "sexual addiction"

What is this terrible secret:

She masturbates

The post is just so unbelievably sad. She's had one "Dating" relationship in her life. She allowed the guy to kiss her and after a few dates it sounds like some petting went on- but no actual sex. After the relationship ended her "addiction" to masturbation worsened from a couple of times a week to daily. She beats herself up unmercifully about this:

This perfectly normal young woman feels she is somehow unredeemably wicked because of the twisted sexuality teachings of fundieism. It's just so sad. If she had been exposed to a normal view of sexuality she'd be so much happier with life and herself.

Blog: wanderingconvert.tumblr.com/

This type of anti-masturbation theology isn't uncommon. The mainstream Christian website Christianity Today christianitytoday.com/women/ recently had an essay about how sinful female masturbation is and how it's not talked about enough (I guess most women don't want to talk about something that will get them labeled as evil sinners).

We were taught that it was as sinful as fornication.

I don't think it would be a sin if the woman did it while fantasizing about her husband (especially if he were deployed or otherwise unavailable) or not fantasizing at all. I think it's lustful thoughts that often accompany it that made my pastor so opposed to it.

[louisa05]

In my personal experience with Catholicism, they are real big on the Madonna and the Whore dichotomy for women. An unfortunate side-effect of Virgin Mary veneration. To give an example, Virgins are considered holier/closer to God than Holy Women. So as a woman, you automatically lose some of your holiness upon having sex. This is not the case for men, who can be holy in other ways.

For men, it is acceptable and often encouraged to find a middle ground in which they accept their sexuality and sexual nature as part of God's design, but do not let it control them or lead them to sin. It's an urge, much the same as anger. Anger itself is not bad, but letting anger control you can lead you to sin. Same thing with sex: it's normal, it's not bad, but it can lead you to sin. For men.

TECHNICALLY this should be the same for women as there is no catechism that excludes them, but in practice it is not, in my experience. Women who accept they are sexual beings and have sexual urges are seen as sluts. There are two acceptable paradigms: the virgin mother, who fulfills her role as a mother and only has sex to please her husband because otherwise she has no interest in sex and would remain a virgin; and the whore, who is a sexual being, derives pleasure from sex, and may have sexual needs that are uniquely hers and differ from her partner's.

tl;dr: Catholicism doesn't really allow women to be sexual. It should. The doctrine is there, and men are accepted as sexual beings. However, in practice, women are often shamed if they explore their sexuality, even if they do so sinlessly.

This is what I've observed from growing up Catholic and attending 12 years of Catholic school. I'd be interested to see if the experiences of other Catholics here differ.

Extremely different experience. In Catholic schools in the Most Conservative Diocese in America no less.

We were taught that sexual feelings and expression are normal and a good and holy part of marriage for both partners. We were taught that there are two equally important purposes for sex--unitive and procreative. The reason for the first being to sustain the intimate bond of the couple. (And that can be found in real honest to goodness Catholic teaching all over the place).

We had "vocation" day every year and there were three specific vocations discussed including adults in each present to talk about them. They were marriage, singleness, and priesthood/religious life (for non-Catholics, the latter refers to nuns and non-ordained monks). None was elevated in importance over the others so there was no message that a celibate woman was holier than a married woman (or that a celibate man was holier for that matter). We were taught, instead, that God calls everyone to one of these vocations and we should be prepared to honor the calling we are given.

In our marriage workshop which was required prior to our wedding, an hour and a half of a six hour day was spent on discussing sex in marriage with a panel of married couples (not a trace of an avowed celibate in the room--no priests, no nuns, no monks--the engaged couples and three married couples were the only ones at that workshop). One woman talked extremely openly about early difficulties in her marriage because she had a higher sex drive than her husband and there was no implication that that was wrong. Her point was that it takes understanding and open communication to iron out differences like that.

So, no, no "virgin-whore" dichotomies. No message that women do not and should not enjoy sex. None at all. I was honestly shocked by those messages when I encountered them in evangelicalism later as a college student. A home town friend of my roommate visited for a weekend shortly before her very-fundy wedding and told us how she felt so weird about marriage because she "wouldn't be pure anymore" and I thought she was insane--I had never been taught any such thing. (My roommate, years later, said basically the same thing to me before her wedding...so that teaching must have permeated the evangelical church they grew up in).

[ViolaSebastian]

I'm confused as to how heavy petting led to her losing her job...can someone please enlighten me?

[Hane]

What louisa05 said. Every bit of it--and I was a Catholic from my birth in 1952 to my departure to UUism in 2005.

[FloraKitty35]

She needs a good therapist. She's done nothing to be ashamed of.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I really hope that she manages to get over her shame long enough to go to confession.

I'm no Catholic, but confession exists for a reason. If you are worries that you have committed any sin, big or small (or something I wouldn't consider sinful at all), you get it out and stop the worry and guilt. Since SHE believes that she sinned, this is the process that would allow her to get past this.

I don't really understand why she wouldn't go to confession, and wonder if she's spiralling downward with anxiety or some other mental health issue.

[Whoregasboard]

I'm confused as to how heavy petting led to her losing her job...can someone please enlighten me?

It sounds like she was so guilt stricken that she missed work, so they fired her.

[Mama Mia]

It sounds like she was so guilt stricken that she missed work, so they fired her.

It sounded to me more like losing the job was coincidental, but that losing her job when she did led to the break-up with the guy, because she had to move.

[Toothfairy]

I would think masturbation would be much less of a sin than intercourse. You can't get pregnant, get an STD, or break up a marriage by playing with yourself.

This I don't understand. I don't even think it's a sin. People are sexual beings with hormones. It's your body.

[smittykins]

This I don't understand. I don't even think it's a sin. People are sexual beings with hormones. It's your body.

In their view, however, it's selfish(because you're doing it alone, and for pleasure)and non-procreative, so it's a no-no.

[Grimalkin]

I can't stop reading this site! Seriously I am slacking in my homemaking duties. But as far as Catholics go there is something called Theology of the Body, which IIRC speaks about how holy and wonderful sex between married people is. I really need to dig it out, but I am putting my phone down and not returning to the internet until tonight after my work is done and kids are in bed.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Maybe it's dependent on where your church is located, but I was raised catholic (I'm no longer Christian, though), attended catholic schools for most of my schooling (including an all girls catholic high school), had a 8 family members work for the church, have attended catholic masses in 3 states (CA, CT, and FL), and have very devout family members (my cousin was in a seminary training to be a priest when he met his future wife who was training to be a nun), yet I've never experienced the church spinning falsehoods about sexuality and your body.

In middle school, we were told to explore our bodies so we might understand how they work. The girls were even told to get a hand mirror and check out the nether regions. In high school, we got a comprehensive education about sex in 4 different classes (PE Health, Biology, Religion 9A, and Ethics). Those discussions included everything from the normalcy of masturbation to the history of why and how it was demonized, from the official church's stance on BC to how it was more important to be protected and what each method was/how it worked/whether it was effective or not, and from the official view of premarital sexual encounters to the reality that most of us will experiment before marriage and even with other genders (whether it was our gender or our partners gender). We were never made to feel shamed, whether at school or in church; except maybe by parishioners, but you learn to avoid those few people.

[ADoyle90815]

In their view, however, it's selfish(because you're doing it alone, and for pleasure)and non-procreative, so it's a no-no.

This. They consider masturbation selfish because sex is only for procreation among married heterosexual couples. In other words, every sperm is sacred.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Interesting and sad. I don't think protestant fundies really talk about solo sex..I don't think the DPIAT, Scott Brown, Duggars, or Kelly Crawfords of the world ever talk about if you can or cannot masturbate. Now that I think about, it is surprising since they talk constantly about everything else to do with sex.

There have been intimations among the fundie set-- things like limiting bathroom time and not allowing the children to be alone in the bedroom. They don't come out and say it, but I've always assumed that one of the reasons the Duggars pile all of the same sex offspring (I won't use the term children because some of them are grown ups) into one bedroom is so that no one is allowed to be in bed by themselves in an empty room.

I know the Mormons go into great detail about masturbating because they advise keeping a diary and noting masturbation as a "black mark." My husband used to joke about his black marks when we were long-distance dating.

[docmom]

I looked up some the websites which defend the idea that masturbation is bad because it says so in the bible. I have to say that the mental gymnastics used to support their ideas were quite impressive. If you read the bible literally then the only masturbation that is mentioned is male so there does not seem to be a prohibition against female masturbation. Even then most sites felt that the male masturbator wasn't punished because of the masturbation but because he went against god in not giving his brother's wife a child. But they argue that just because something isn't explicity forbidden in the bible doesn't mean it isn't wrong ("like smoking marijuana"). So basically the argument is, even tho god didn't SPECIFICALLY prohibit female masturbation, we KNOW it's wrong so we can forbid it.

My view is, if there is a god, s/he gave us parts that when used make us feel good and hurt no-one else. Can't be much wrong with that.

[usmcmom]

I wonder how these poor girls enter marriage. I know they must be scared to death about the wedding night and I wonder if fundie men are taught to be patient and gentle with their new brides. Of course there would be some adjustment period for any young couple, but do their husbands allow them to be sexual? I really hate the thought that these women are basically sexually abused throughout their married lives, but some of these young men really give a creepy vibe.

[salex]

I would think masturbation would be much less of a sin than intercourse. You can't get pregnant, get an STD, or break up a marriage by playing with yourself.

However, the assumption is that fundie men would fantacize while masturbating and thus, it is lusting in the heart and therefore evil.

James Dobson suggested that forbidding it, when most young men / people will masturbate and their guilt will create a wedge between them and god, was a poor idea.

He caught a world of shit for not being fundie enough.

settingcaptivesfree.com/letter-dr-james-dobson-focus-family/

John Piper says it is a sin because you have to think of some vivid fantasy (clearly he was never a teen ager)

christianity.com/11555713/