What's up with the rural obsession?

[latraviata]

My parents were in the middle of their hippy-self-sufficiency-live-off-the-land faze when I came along. Mum just figured she could strap me to her back and go out and harvest the garden. They were very isolated, had no help, Mum, in hindsight believes she had PPD, I didn't sleep, screamed all the time, they were constantly broke and their marriage suffered. They stuck it out for 6 years before selling up and moving to London (from rural NZ). Not my idea of a good life in the country.

It reminds me of this:

9bEGEsh6nG0

[Jana814]

I think its because there is less people around. There is no neighbours to wonder why the kids have unexplained bruises, or hear a toddler screaming as they are beaten for hours because they wouldn't pick their toys up or another little toddler thing that kids do as they realise they have opinions. Its also more isolating-no exposure to non fundie influences, nobody the kids can turn to if they need help. Theres nobody to question why there are 10 kids in a two bedroom house.

I think u r right. Their is no one questioning anything that they do.

[eohiken]

At my place of work, we all have to have 'old-fashioned' skills; farming crafting, sewing, cooking from scratch, etc...

Which means I work with old hippies, new hippies and fundies (fundie-lites really), We have a fair truce, generally don't talk religion or politics unless within our own faction to keep the peace. We're an odd lot for sure.

[itsnotmeitsu]

I'm not fundamentalist by a long-shot, but I can understand the desire to garden. We're trying to buy a new house and what I love the most about the one we like is that it has a lot of space to put in a garden. I want to go all-out, just not sure how I can take the stress of it--my garden last year was doing fabulous and then got killed in a hail storm and it really upset me.

[uber frau]

To get as far away from the big, bad city as possible. In the city it's expensive to buy land, harder to keep the gaggle of homeskooled kids busy (without spending $$$) and there are ppl who might be out and proud, or who openly vote for Obama.

Rural properties are cheap and when your kids have finished their half an hour tuition at the SODRT, you can kick them outdoors (it's not like there's any room to play inside) and know they are safely dismembering frogs or shooting BB guns at each other (away from liberals who might teach them about evolution and such anyway.).

And the pastoral idyll reminds them of time when everyone was Christian and women know their place.

[salex]

I also think that some of the hobby farms/return to the earth bit is aligned with tan undertone of survivalism--both anti government/fear of one world government, let's fly under the radar OR mid- or post- trib fears driving them to become "self sufficeient and off the grid" (No social security cards, no doctors records/vaccinations, no marriage licenses.

I think it lends itself to attracting abusers, and to instilling some pretty deep fear in the children.

[Maggie Mae]

I think that fundies, like all people, have a different reasons for what they do. I think a lot of them idealize small town/country/rural living. I think some idealize homesteading. A lot of them dream of returning to the past, and rural living can be like a trip to the past. Lots of them also preach about being self sufficient and living in the sticks requires some degree of self sufficiency. This varies from place to place. It's my opinion that lots of them like to talk about homesteading or moving to the middle of nowhere and having to figure things out, much like our ancestors did when they colonized the US. But the vast majority of them are still on the road system, still able to hop over to Chick-fil-a when they want a treat, still able to buy mass produced "food" at the superWalmart.

Some people like living in cities. Some people don't. I like things about both. I like the fact that out in rural areas, some things don't matter as much. Like how much education you have, where you got said education, what you are wearing, how/if your hair is brushed/styled, etc. There is more to do for free in rural areas, or at least more to do that I am interested in. I can ride my bike for free, I can go for a hike for free, I can cross country ski for free, or swim in a lake, or go fishing or kayaking or whatever. There might be up front costs for equipment, but there are no fees (where I live) for trail access, day pass tickets at the ski park, no fee for water access.

I like living in cities because you can just hop on a train and go to a museum and there tends to be a lot to do. It just all costs a lot of money and people don't like to do things by themselves in smaller cities, IMO. In big cities there is more to do for free, but there is also a lot of things to do that are very expensive.

Anyway, I also have noticed that homeschoolers like rural environments because of less oversight. States like mine have strong homeschool programs with not a lot of oversight because it's cost prohibitive to figure out how to get someone out to some village of 40 people in the Interior; or even just the homesteads that have popped up in Western Alaska. So the fundies are moving in (but thankfully they are all mostly too lazy/poor to go off the road system) and the political climate is changing. We used to be the least religious state.

[Ariel]

My parents were in the middle of their hippy-self-sufficiency-live-off-the-land faze when I came along. Mum just figured she could strap me to her back and go out and harvest the garden. They were very isolated, had no help, Mum, in hindsight believes she had PPD, I didn't sleep, screamed all the time, they were constantly broke and their marriage suffered. They stuck it out for 6 years before selling up and moving to London (from rural NZ). Not my idea of a good life in the country.

My mom always says the reason she didn't end up homesteading (after being a hippie, vegan, gardening, super-liberal young adult) was because of me. She knew it wouldn't be a great lifestyle for a young child.

[Firiel]

Her being someone who lives in the city and the phrase "a bit of earth" as opposed to something more all-encompassing leads me to believe she's drawing on new fad of gardening for the sake of being "self-sufficient" and "organic" (quotes used for a reason!). I don't think this is a fundie thing. It's just an American thing right now, especially for urban folks. Garden in the front yard instead of flowers. Urban chickens. That thing.

I think there is something of a movement for fundies (or just conservatives, really-- religion, though helpful, not required) to homestead/move to Alaska/actually farm because of fear of government/separation from world/financial reasons as were mentioned above. But (knowing Lori's background) I see this as an urban impulse to "connect with nature and their food" and romanticize what it's like to be living at one with the natural world without actually leaving the conveniences of society/urbanity behind (*cough* Thoreau *cough*).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Her being someone who lives in the city and the phrase "a bit of earth" as opposed to something more all-encompassing leads me to believe she's drawing on new fad of gardening for the sake of being "self-sufficient" and "organic" (quotes used for a reason!). I don't think this is a fundie thing. It's just an American thing right now, especially for urban folks. Garden in the front yard instead of flowers. Urban chickens. That thing.

I think there is something of a movement for fundies (or just conservatives, really-- religion, though helpful, not required) to homestead/move to Alaska/actually farm because of fear of government/separation from world/financial reasons as were mentioned above. But (knowing Lori's background) I see this as an urban impulse to "connect with nature and their food" and romanticize what it's like to be living at one with the natural world without actually leaving the conveniences of society/urbanity behind (*cough* Thoreau *cough*).

You may be right, but it's also complete bullshit IMHO to pretend that this is either a biblical mandate or something that is part of frugal living.

If you like gardening and like the taste of fresh-grown stuff and the ability to control what goes into your food, knock yourself out.

I know that urban farming has been proposed in Detroit, but in high COL urban areas (like mine), single family detached homes with lots large enough for a garden are not cheap. A family where the husband works in the city wouldn't say, "oh, the wife can garden and crochet and do crafts to be super-frugal". When we were trying to live as cheaply as possible when Girl 2 was a baby, we had an apartment in the city that allowed my husband to walk to work, and allowed us to walk to most of the things that we needed. Land and cars cost money, and cities tend to have more free or low-cost programs.

Maybe I'm off-base, but I'm also wondering if there is a race/ethnic dynamic to this as well.

[Firiel]

You may be right, but it's also complete bullshit IMHO to pretend that this is either a biblical mandate or something that is part of frugal living.

If you like gardening and like the taste of fresh-grown stuff and the ability to control what goes into your food, knock yourself out.

I know that urban farming has been proposed in Detroit, but in high COL urban areas (like mine), single family detached homes with lots large enough for a garden are not cheap. A family where the husband works in the city wouldn't say, "oh, the wife can garden and crochet and do crafts to be super-frugal". When we were trying to live as cheaply as possible when Girl 2 was a baby, we had an apartment in the city that allowed my husband to walk to work, and allowed us to walk to most of the things that we needed. Land and cars cost money, and cities tend to have more free or low-cost programs.

Maybe I'm off-base, but I'm also wondering if there is a race/ethnic dynamic to this as well.

Oh, I totally think it's bullshit! It's just a trend she likes, so now it's Biblical. And frugal. Because Lori.

Like you said, land is expensive. If you have enough land for a garden, it's probably cheaper to garden than buy organic. But that's a big "if." It allows for a superiority complex. "Well, I garden, so I can afford to eat organic. Why don't you try it?" It's interesting that you bring up the high COL urban areas. I live in a place with a low COL and a fairly spread out urban environment. There's not a lot of those city apartment buildings and there are a lot of cute little houses with cute little yards (and they really are damn cute-- I dream about living in one whenever I drive through a neighborhood!). So, a lot of "urban farming" here, by rich, middle-class white folk who feel good about themselves because they are self-sufficient and environmentally friendly. This is coming from someone who would/will TOTALLY urban-garden (but keep the chickens away!) when she gets a chance, so I hope it doesn't come off as too dickish. It's the superiority that often comes along with it that gets my eyes rolling.

I'm interested in the race/ethnic dynamic you mention. Is that because of the whole "You need money to do it but then Lori judges people who don't as wasteful" dynamic? Is there something more specific to it than that?

[2xx1xy1JD]

This may be something very specific to my area, but where I live (Toronto area), urban areas are ethnic and rural areas are white. A few ethnic groups are into urban gardens (every self-respecting Italian nona seems to grow tomatoes and can a whole years' worth of sauce), but it's more common here for ethnic groups and immigrants to live in apartments where gardens just don't exist.

Here, ethnic groups also tend to be urban (or at least suburban) because that's where the community and the services are.

When I picture this old-fashioned family, with a mom at home crocheting and gardening, I'm picturing a family that has either lived there for ages, or that's nostalgic for a time when their grandparents did that. Again, where I live, that means picturing a white, non-ethnic family, because most of the non-white immigrants came later, when land was more expensive. I don't know many ethnic families where their are memories of a quiet country life, just puttering in a garden and doing some crafts to pass the time. The only person like that I know is my dad, because his grandfather happened to own a farm where he rented out shacks for the summer (really cool article about the place: http://www.cjnews.com/node/83993). Otherwise, most ethnic women WORKED - as hired farm labor, as garment workers, in factories, running stores, cleaning, or just doing whatever they had to do to survive.

[Firiel]

This may be something very specific to my area, but where I live (Toronto area), urban areas are ethnic and rural areas are white. A few ethnic groups are into urban gardens (every self-respecting Italian nona seems to grow tomatoes and can a whole years' worth of sauce), but it's more common here for ethnic groups and immigrants to live in apartments where gardens just don't exist.

Here, ethnic groups also tend to be urban (or at least suburban) because that's where the community and the services are.

When I picture this old-fashioned family, with a mom at home crocheting and gardening, I'm picturing a family that has either lived there for ages, or that's nostalgic for a time when their grandparents did that. Again, where I live, that means picturing a white, non-ethnic family, because most of the non-white immigrants came later, when land was more expensive. I don't know many ethnic families where their are memories of a quiet country life, just puttering in a garden and doing some crafts to pass the time. The only person like that I know is my dad, because his grandfather happened to own a farm where he rented out shacks for the summer (really cool article about the place: http://www.cjnews.com/node/83993). Otherwise, most ethnic women WORKED - as hired farm labor, as garment workers, in factories, running stores, cleaning, or just doing whatever they had to do to survive.

Okay, yeah. That makes a lot of sense and was kind of what I was figuring you were getting at, but I couldn't quite formulate the idea like you did. Thanks! It's somewhat different here because my area is just generally more rural despite the fact that I live in a city. The majority of our area's minority population lives in small, rural towns that are closer to seasonal labor on farms and such (though recent non-white/non-Hispanic immigrants do tend to live in inexpensive apartments, for the reasons you cite above).

Also, cool article! :)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Glad my ramblings made sense to someone.

I also can't picture immigrant farm laborers fitting into this "keeper at home" image. These are women who are working all day, just like the men are. They aren't crocheting and arranging flowers and trying to figure out what to do when they are bored.

[Coconut Flan]

I don't see Lori doing much of what is in that blog post. I think she's just prattling high points from an article she'd saved and recently found again. It seems more of her new found image since hitting babies with straps was frowned on in this establishment. :lol:

[salex]

Glad my ramblings made sense to someone.

I also can't picture immigrant farm laborers fitting into this "keeper at home" image. These are women who are working all day, just like the men are. They aren't crocheting and arranging flowers and trying to figure out what to do when they are bored.

But of course, they aren't real Christians so they don't know they are supposed to stay home like that, They are likely Roman Catholic or some other non true christian religion. Isn't that why we send missionaries to Mexico and Zambia?

[gibbsgirls]

It reminds me of this:

9bEGEsh6nG0

That show is one of my favorite Brit coms.

The fundie thought of being self-sufficient is huge. There is a book I read back in my fundie-medium days called The Urban Homestead. Also, web site of the same name. Don't recall if the book or site are fundie affiliated. But I knew/know lots of city dwelling fundies who read the book.

[terranova]

It reminds me of this:

9bEGEsh6nG0

Hah, I totally used to think The Goodlife was based on my parents. Except their neighbours didn't drink fancy coctails, they just grew lots of dope and didn't work much.

[jerkit]

But of course, they aren't real Christians so they don't know they are supposed to stay home like that, They are likely Roman Catholic or some other non true christian religion. Isn't that why we send missionaries to Mexico and Zambia?

This. I was listening to Stevie this morning preaching about how "for thousands of years, women have stayed home and not worked." I legit LOL'd at the thought and then remembered that there weren't any real true Christians until the church of the holy strip mall.

[HereticHick]

Just this week Kelly Bates commented that they currently don't have a garden and she misses it. Its inexcusable for a family short on money, with land and that many kids at home who can weed & water, to not have a garden. I work full time, have no kids, & still have things growing in pots on my deck.

And as far as I can tell, the Duggars "pretend" to set up gardens for the TLC cameras, and they let everything whither and die.

For all their obsession with the pure, rural life (which really isn't limited to fundies--its a very American strain of idealism that goes back to Jefferson and beyond) it is laughable that these megafamilies with land won't get off their asses and grow some vegetables. They'd rather pollute the planet with their styrofoam plates & Hummers.

Lazy takers.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

By me there are community gardens (in a smallish city/town) set up by the park district and a lot of the people that take out plots there are people living in apartments who want to grow vegetables that aren't commonly found in the local markets - lots of Asian people among them. It's also seen as something educational and productive for kids to do after school, so there are other community gardens at the Boys and Girls club and similar. Plenty of gardens are not in people's yards. But definitely one motivation for having a garden is "I want to eat something not sold around here."

I'll admit I'm surprised that the Duggars don't garden or cook from scratch more simply because their family IS large enough and with enough older kids that they have enough labor to actually start saving (not just money either but time for each individual). Co-op houses often eat really well (even urban ones where people aren't gardening) for similar reasons - with all those people rotating the cooking, each individual gets to just "come home to dinner all ready" most days, only cooking on their day once a week or whatever. Plus the Duggars have that giant kitchen.

There is a lot of food that's a pain to make but once you do decide to make it it's no more problem to cook for a horde than to cook for one because it's all about throughput, plus if you're sharing the task with someone else it's social. Most people eat such food at restaurants because that's where the economies of scale work. But if you live in a coop house or have a huge family, you can start doing that sort of thing at home. Small families, not so much.

[2xx1xy1JD]

That's true about cooking for a crowd. We often have 10-20 people eating dinner here on Friday nights, and it's really not any extra work. The basic dishes and prep time is the same, more people just means that I throw some more chicken into the oven.

I didn't mean to come across as anti-rural or anti-gardens. They can be great - I just don't think that they are always frugal or that you can't be a Godly woman without growing your own stuff.

[RosyDaisy]

Well, I prefer living in a rural area because it's quiet and peaceful. The crime rate is very, very low. The only things that go bump in the night are animal related (cats, dogs, opossums, raccoons, etc.) I don't have to deal with HSAs. I can also plant my own veggie garden. I can have outdoor shindigs without pissing off the neighbors. So, for me, it's a personal choice, not a religious one. I just like living in the country. Also, the land I live on (2 acres) was given to me by my grandfather when he passed away, and that means a lot to me.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I didn't mean to come across as anti-rural or anti-gardens. They can be great - I just don't think that they are always frugal or that you can't be a Godly woman without growing your own stuff.

Oh definitely.

Back to the woman who insists on making all her own clothes, she should just admit she likes the hobby and prefers sewing her own stuff because she wants to wear styles not available in the store. Nothing at all wrong with it, but I do agree it's strange when some of that crowd insists it's because it's a frugal thing. Just admit you like the frumper look (or the regency dresses look, or whatever your thing is) and are willing to put resources into it.

Come to think of it, in that way they're quite a bit like "hipsters" who claim similar about certain vintage clothing items. Most of the truly quirky trendy stuff now is siphoned off and sold at markup, if you truly are just looking for the cheapest clothing possible (new OR used) it probably won't end up being a wool sweater with a crazy pattern on it from 1972. (Second-hand Wal-Mart 2010 is more likely.) But if you want to buy that sweater? More power to ya.

[Curious]

I don't see Lori doing much of what is in that blog post. I think she's just prattling high points from an article she'd saved and recently found again. It seems more of her new found image since hitting babies with straps was frowned on in this establishment. :lol:

I agree. I think we are seeing a rebranding effort. Whether it is because there was a significant drop in traffic/negative comments after Ken's visit here or it's just an effort to build a broader audience, remains to be seen.

If a gun were put to my head and I were forced to make a choice, based on the evidence that we have seen (comments put on moderation for example), I'd go with the former.

Rebranding is part of Ken's job, afterall, at least as I understand it.