Gender-neutral Baby Followup

[Stephanie66]

Penn Jillette does a radio show. He and his wife have a daughter and a son. Penn did not want a girly-girl daughter, but he insists she was BORN that way. She gravitated towards pink, wanted the dresses and lace and princess stuff. So, he keeps his mouth shut and lets her be a princess. She even had a princess-themed birthday party.

Because sometimes, girls are like that. Just like some boys are BOYS from the start. It's not wrong.

[Just_Jane]

I just really do not get this whole gender neutral thing. Is it to not assign gender roles?

I keep thinking shouldn't you accept your child for the gender they are and whatever else may come with that. If you don't want to assign gender roles then don't. Does it have to be a production? At some point their gender is going to become an issue at puberty. Basic fact of life there is a difference between girls and boys. Those differences don't mean a thing for rather or not someone wants to wear a sparkly princess dress or play baseball.

as a kid my favorite toys were a tonka dump truck and a strawberry shortcake pretend kitchen. No one ever said I couldn't have both.

[Maggie Mae]

It seems like everyone is quick to point out that all toys are gender neutral in that they can be played with by children, as there are few toys that are operated with the genitals at Toys R Us. But it seems to me that toys are being marketed as gendered when they shouldn't. Why are there separate isles for boys and girls? This isn't right. We are putting them into categories at babies and it's pathetic. A toy doctor bag with plastic bandages and faux stethoscope can come in various color choices, but why separate the choices into two isles? Put all of the Legos together, put all of the dolls and action figures together. GI Joe can play with Barbie, and he's actually pretty good at kissing skipper and pushing Ken down water slides.

I have no problem with anyone attempting to keep their baby gender neutal. If someone asks what "I am having" I have no problem asking them why it matters.

[Marianne]

It seems like everyone is quick to point out that all toys are gender neutral in that they can be played with by children, as there are few toys that are operated with the genitals at Toys R Us. But it seems to me that toys are being marketed as gendered when they shouldn't. Why are there separate isles for boys and girls? This isn't right. We are putting them into categories at babies and it's pathetic. A toy doctor bag with plastic bandages and faux stethoscope can come in various color choices, but why separate the choices into two isles? Put all of the Legos together, put all of the dolls and action figures together. GI Joe can play with Barbie, and he's actually pretty good at kissing skipper and pushing Ken down water slides.

I have no problem with anyone attempting to keep their baby gender neutal. If someone asks what "I am having" I have no problem asking them why it matters.

this, this, this !

Often, people ask if my 3 years old is intersexe, because he wears princess dress and pink and loves Disney. No, he's not ! He just loves princess and Disney ! For the love of god, let him love what he wants.

[twinmama]

I've been a nanny for 9 years and I can tell you that people will try to assign genders with or without your help. When I was first starting out, I took the then 10 month old fraternal twin boys out for a stroll in their wagon. Every person we came across started talking about how one was a handsome young man and the other was a beautiful little girl before even asking me what genders they were (to this day, I'll never understand why they thought one was a girl; it couldn't have even been the clothing choices cause they were matching that day).

Instead of fighting societies urge to label, it's best to correct them if they are offensive. For instance, when I took my charges (then 6 and 1) out one day, the 6 year old decided he wanted to wear bows in his hair like his sister. I saw no harm, so I let him. Some person pulled me aside while the kids were playing and said I shouldn't allow him to do that. I politely told the person that he was 6 and, therefore, completely capable of deciding what he would wear at any time. And then told her I had far bigger things to worry about (like his feeling of self worth) than the idea that some stranger might think he's weird.

I have fraternal boys and for us, it's one's curly hair that always got him called a girl. Despite the fact that I usually dressed them alike bc it was easier when they were babies. I had someone once say "A girl and a boy?" and I said two boys, and they pointed to my curly haired son and said "He looks like a girl." Like... what the fuck do you say to that?!?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I have fraternal boys and for us, it's one's curly hair that always got him called a girl. Despite the fact that I usually dressed them alike bc it was easier when they were babies. I had someone once say "A girl and a boy?" and I said two boys, and they pointed to my curly haired son and said "He looks like a girl." Like... what the fuck do you say to that?!?

Hahaha yea. One of the boys has a oval face and one had a square face; square was labeled boy and oval was labeled girl. Cause lord knows you can't have an oval head if you're a boy. Just look at all those Hollywood stars. Oh wait.

[aelar]

I have a lot of sympathy for what these people are trying to do, and I really don't think it's about their kid not knowing their genitalia, or actively hiding things from the people around them. It's about trying to, a bit radically, prevent society from imposing its messages, which is something that happens constantly regarding gender (and other things).

I refused to let the nurses put a pink hat on my daughter when she was born because I'd read the studies that show how from the moment they are born, boys and girls are treated differently. Girls are held more gently and talked to more, boys, from infancy, are handled a little more roughly and played with more. It starts the moment they're born! Before they can crawl, let alone walk and talk, boys and girls have been given very different experiences that obviously lead to differences in their abilities (gee, girls talk earlier and boys are more physically capable, I'm shocked). And it's not even intentional. We've all so internalized our gender expectations that we unconsciously reinforce them in our children.

I really wanted a girl (for complex psychological reasons and because of my own ingrained gender biases), and I didn't have a strong enough conviction to obscure her gender completely. But my little battle in the war is that I do often dress her in 'boys' clothes and colors (a little less now that she's older, only because girl-style clothes are so much more comfortable and attractive than boy-styles: A onesie is a onesie, but I'll take leggings and swooshy layers over jeans and ugly car shirts any day. I do keep the pink to a minimum though, I hate that color). She will sometimes be mistaken for a boy even when she's wearing a dress because it's a blue dress, or because she's very physically active, and her hair is curly, so you can't tell how long it is. My husband is a better gender warrior than me, he doesn't even bother to correct people when they call her a boy. Me, I feel more like I have to stand up for her right to be a girl that doesn't look like what girls are supposed to look like (which apparently is just 'pink' to a majority of people), but I wish I could make myself stop doing that.

When she is correctly identified as a girl, the gender-policing messages are really omnipresent. She must be a princess and know all the Disney stuff; she must be a good doll mama; she must want the pink toothbrush; she must be a little angel; she must be mama's little helper; she is so beautiful and cute and adorable. It's not like all these things are bad things, but I think the compliments are the worst part! I don't want my daughter socialized to think that her appearance and passive compliance are the best things about her. I can give her all the building toys in the world, but in the end, the messages of society will creep in, and she will have to fight for her sense of self and to know her true interests. The best thing we've been able to do for her is give her a stay-at-home dad, so at least she is not getting the kind of constant unconscious reinforcement of gender norms that I probably would have accidentally passed on if I had been the primary caregiver.

She's at the age where identifying boys versus girls is starting to be a thing, and it's really really problematic for me. In most picture books, how can you tell the boys from the girls? We're often meant to know by hair length and the colors of their clothes, but I'm really uncomfortable with having my daughter point at a kid in blue shirt and jeans and call it a boy and one in a pink shirt and call it a girl. I'm struggling with finding a way to support my belief that the only way you can really know someone's gender is to ask them, and really, there's no need to ask, because it doesn't matter. Not labeling by gender is really hard for me, because I was socialized before there was a strong awareness of these issues, but this generation's children do actually have a slim possibility of being able to see people as just people, without seeing girls and boys, men and women, but it's so slim. My daughter is already trying to categorize, and I don't know how to stop it, but I'm going to keep trying to prevent her from getting a fixed idea of what boys and girls are.

I think this is part of what these parents are trying to achieve, and they've picked a strange path to do it, but I don't think it will hurt the kids, and if they are drawing attention to themselves, then that draws attention to the idea of removing the assumption of gender binaries, or that our gender is important to who we are, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Marianne]

I have a lot of sympathy for what these people are trying to do, and I really don't think it's about their kid not knowing their genitalia, or actively hiding things from the people around them. It's about trying to, a bit radically, prevent society from imposing its messages, which is something that happens constantly regarding gender (and other things).

I refused to let the nurses put a pink hat on my daughter when she was born because I'd read the studies that show how from the moment they are born, boys and girls are treated differently. Girls are held more gently and talked to more, boys, from infancy, are handled a little more roughly and played with more. It starts the moment they're born! Before they can crawl, let alone walk and talk, boys and girls have been given very different experiences that obviously lead to differences in their abilities (gee, girls talk earlier and boys are more physically capable, I'm shocked). And it's not even intentional. We've all so internalized our gender expectations that we unconsciously reinforce them in our children.

I really wanted a girl (for complex psychological reasons and because of my own ingrained gender biases), and I didn't have a strong enough conviction to obscure her gender completely. But my little battle in the war is that I do often dress her in 'boys' clothes and colors (a little less now that she's older, only because girl-style clothes are so much more comfortable and attractive than boy-styles: A onesie is a onesie, but I'll take leggings and swooshy layers over jeans and ugly car shirts any day. I do keep the pink to a minimum though, I hate that color). She will sometimes be mistaken for a boy even when she's wearing a dress because it's a blue dress, or because she's very physically active, and her hair is curly, so you can't tell how long it is. My husband is a better gender warrior than me, he doesn't even bother to correct people when they call her a boy. Me, I feel more like I have to stand up for her right to be a girl that doesn't look like what girls are supposed to look like (which apparently is just 'pink' to a majority of people), but I wish I could make myself stop doing that.

When she is correctly identified as a girl, the gender-policing messages are really omnipresent. She must be a princess and know all the Disney stuff; she must be a good doll mama; she must want the pink toothbrush; she must be a little angel; she must be mama's little helper; she is so beautiful and cute and adorable. It's not like all these things are bad things, but I think the compliments are the worst part! I don't want my daughter socialized to think that her appearance and passive compliance are the best things about her. I can give her all the building toys in the world, but in the end, the messages of society will creep in, and she will have to fight for her sense of self and to know her true interests. The best thing we've been able to do for her is give her a stay-at-home dad, so at least she is not getting the kind of constant unconscious reinforcement of gender norms that I probably would have accidentally passed on if I had been the primary caregiver.

She's at the age where identifying boys versus girls is starting to be a thing, and it's really really problematic for me. In most picture books, how can you tell the boys from the girls? We're often meant to know by hair length and the colors of their clothes, but I'm really uncomfortable with having my daughter point at a kid in blue shirt and jeans and call it a boy and one in a pink shirt and call it a girl. I'm struggling with finding a way to support my belief that the only way you can really know someone's gender is to ask them, and really, there's no need to ask, because it doesn't matter. Not labeling by gender is really hard for me, because I was socialized before there was a strong awareness of these issues, but this generation's children do actually have a slim possibility of being able to see people as just people, without seeing girls and boys, men and women, but it's so slim. My daughter is already trying to categorize, and I don't know how to stop it, but I'm going to keep trying to prevent her from getting a fixed idea of what boys and girls are.

I think this is part of what these parents are trying to achieve, and they've picked a strange path to do it, but I don't think it will hurt the kids, and if they are drawing attention to themselves, then that draws attention to the idea of removing the assumption of gender binaries, or that our gender is important to who we are, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

What is boys toys ? It's something that the MARKETING decided it existed. But you know what ? At the end, it's just clothes. Don't listen to the marketing. Don't think "boy clothes" "girl clothes". Ask your girl what she wants, give her the choice, and just let her decide.

When you're reading a book, maybe you can tell her : "Why do you tell it's a girl ? Because it wears a jean ? But sometimes, you wear jeans. We don't know if it's a boy or a girl. It's not really important, you know"

I think it will hurt the kid because his parent are telling him : "Your gender is really very very very important. Also, it's something decided by your clothes. If a boy wear pink clothes and plays with dolls, he losts his dick. If a girl wear blue and plays with truck, she losts her vagina. That's why we're not telling you your gender, because we think that gender is really very very very important, and because we don't want you to lost your genitalia. Because marketing is always right. If marketing tell pink is for the girl, it's right"

[eohiken]

It goes further than marketing into manufacturing which in turn comes from the buying practices of the masses. What people are responding to is the HYPER-engendering of products, especially for babies and small children. As an adult woman, I can go out and buy a pair of jeans and a green tshirt, no problem. As a mother, I have been frustrated out of my mind that I couldn't buy with all the money in the world a child-sized garment NOT emblazoned with either princesses or monster trucks. And it was frustrating even past the engendering of toddlers, because I strongly dislike using licensed clothing on children to turn them into walking billboards.

I was once put in a very uncomfortable situation where my daughter quite wanted a pair of princess sneakers - not because she likes princesses (she really really doesn't) because she DIDN'T want spiderman and there wasn't another option in that store, I wouldn't buy them and an older woman with very good intentions offered to buy them for her (because she thought I couldn't afford them).

Marketing responds to consumers buying preferences, they don't dictate what the marketplace offers. Speaking from a apparel design and manufacturing background, I know there are many people and companies that have started out with the grand idea to sell gender-neutral children's clothing. And they have all BOMBED for lack of customers. The idea has to start from the ground up, if people refuse to buy hyper-engendered products, they will no longer dominate the marketplace.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

It goes further than marketing into manufacturing which in turn comes from the buying practices of the masses. What people are responding to is the HYPER-engendering of products, especially for babies and small children. As an adult woman, I can go out and buy a pair of jeans and a green tshirt, no problem. As a mother, I have been frustrated out of my mind that I couldn't buy with all the money in the world a child-sized garment NOT emblazoned with either princesses or monster trucks. And it was frustrating even past the engendering of toddlers, because I strongly dislike using licensed clothing on children to turn them into walking billboards.

I was once put in a very uncomfortable situation where my daughter quite wanted a pair of princess sneakers - not because she likes princesses (she really really doesn't) because she DIDN'T want spiderman and there wasn't another option in that store, I wouldn't buy them and an older woman with very good intentions offered to buy them for her (because she thought I couldn't afford them).

Marketing responds to consumers buying preferences, they don't dictate what the marketplace offers. Speaking from a apparel design and manufacturing background, I know there are many people and companies that have started out with the grand idea to sell gender-neutral children's clothing. And they have all BOMBED for lack of customers. The idea has to start from the ground up, if people refuse to buy hyper-engendered products, they will no longer dominate the marketplace.

I've gone clothes shopping for all the children I've taken care of (well save for one whose mother was stupidly obsessed with brand name clothes regardless of practicality; her daughter had Gucci shoes with silk laces at the age of 2). I've never had a problem finding clothes that didn't have graphics on them (I'm not generally a fan of graphic tees or anything like that). I've shopped everywhere from TJ Maxx to second hand stores to Gymboree/Children's Place/other "boutiques." I don't think it's really that hard to find gender neutral colors either, most of the kids I take care of wear reds, blues, and greens as their primary colors. Some have worn orange if I find a shade that works with their skin tone.

[eohiken]

It does open up a bit after 5T, infant and toddler clothing seems the most segregated. I'm one of those weirdos that refused a sex analysis u/s when pregnant. Finding gender neutral is actually not that easy. We ended up with many pieces from one store because it was one place that had neutral basics.

My daughter's favourite colour is red, we often buy 'boys' clothes for her. This isn't a problem for any of us, but it sucks in general.

I realize not everything is licensed, but licensed products for young children are a strong force in the market.

[louisa05]

I've gone clothes shopping for all the children I've taken care of (well save for one whose mother was stupidly obsessed with brand name clothes regardless of practicality; her daughter had Gucci shoes with silk laces at the age of 2). I've never had a problem finding clothes that didn't have graphics on them (I'm not generally a fan of graphic tees or anything like that). I've shopped everywhere from TJ Maxx to second hand stores to Gymboree/Children's Place/other "boutiques." I don't think it's really that hard to find gender neutral colors either, most of the kids I take care of wear reds, blues, and greens as their primary colors. Some have worn orange if I find a shade that works with their skin tone.

This is the same thing I see when I sub in the primary grades. Honestly, for all the handwringing that all girls' clothing is pink, my observations have consistently been that girls are wearing every color on the spectrum (including, God forbid apparently, pink) while boys are wearing blue, green, black and camo print. A few will be wearing red clothing with logos for the local college football team, but other than that it is blue, green, black and camo.

I am also more and more concerned with the fact that the implication of all of this gender neutral stuff leans strongly toward "girls must not look like girls" while little attention is paid to how much boys are stereotyped. The result does not empower girls and women, it is quite the opposite, in fact. The message becomes that it is somehow unacceptable to appear in any way that is traditionally female and if that is unacceptable, then the underlying message can easily be interpreted as all things "female" being somehow lesser. . It echoes second wave feminism's notions of women in gender neutral business suits trying to conquer the male dominated world by appearing less feminine. What is truly empowering is allowing girls and women to embrace anything they want. Even if it is pink or sparkly or otherwise stereotypically feminine. There is no equality if those things are always perceived as weak or bad, we are simply giving in and agreeing that strength is only in those things that are stereotypically male. We also do no favors to males who are not stereotypically masculine by perpetuating this notion.

[FJismyheadship]

I shop on both sides for my daughter. Currently, I don't need to buy clothes for a very long time, she got a TON of hand me downs in 2T to 4T. I did buy a pair of overalls recently, and they just had a little bit of glitter snowflakes on them. I felt like she needed a good pair of overalls for getting dirty. Just like she has good sturdy jeans for the same reason. And I love overalls on small children, they are sooo cute.

Buying a potty was awful. I finally found a gender neutral one that even had a boy and a girl on the box. But at first everything was sports or princesses. Everything was so explicitly GIRL or BOY that I could not buy them. I would not have MINDED buying the baseball seat or something, except the tag on the outside "Now patterns for boys AND girls!" and showed a football, a baseball, and a princess. It was horrible.

I love pink, girly, frilly things. I love dressing my daughter up too. BUT I also make sure she has practical clothes. I try to make sure she has clothes of all different colors and designs. She wore a plaid multi colored button up shirt and blue jeans to her grandfathers funeral, and everyone thought she was a boy. An aunt told me I needed to put a dress on her. Later I realized it was the shirt she wore the last time we saw her grandfather. When I pointed that out to her dad, he said "Oh yeah, and he liked that shirt." I don't think I got a chance to tell the aunt that. But everyone else knew once I remembered it, so I hope it got back to her.

I don't buy princess stuff. I will get Dora or Hello Kitty occasionally, but I don't like princess stuff.

[Marianne]

We dress the children like they want. Boy 1 loves Totoro stuff and he have some totoro T-shirt. Boy 2 loves princess and Frozen, and we have A LOT of choice in Frozen t-shirt and dress :roll: (I prefer Totoro !)

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Baby Bjorn has white potties. And when I potty train, I don't use little potties, I use seats that fit on regular toilets. My favorite is a padded type that folds and fits in the diaper bag; it's also white. And it's available at buy buy baby, babys r us, and other chains.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I shop on both sides for my daughter. Currently, I don't need to buy clothes for a very long time, she got a TON of hand me downs in 2T to 4T. I did buy a pair of overalls recently, and they just had a little bit of glitter snowflakes on them. I felt like she needed a good pair of overalls for getting dirty. Just like she has good sturdy jeans for the same reason. And I love overalls on small children, they are sooo cute.

Buying a potty was awful. I finally found a gender neutral one that even had a boy and a girl on the box. But at first everything was sports or princesses. Everything was so explicitly GIRL or BOY that I could not buy them. I would not have MINDED buying the baseball seat or something, except the tag on the outside "Now patterns for boys AND girls!" and showed a football, a baseball, and a princess. It was horrible.

I love pink, girly, frilly things. I love dressing my daughter up too. BUT I also make sure she has practical clothes. I try to make sure she has clothes of all different colors and designs. She wore a plaid multi colored button up shirt and blue jeans to her grandfathers funeral, and everyone thought she was a boy. An aunt told me I needed to put a dress on her. Later I realized it was the shirt she wore the last time we saw her grandfather. When I pointed that out to her dad, he said "Oh yeah, and he liked that shirt." I don't think I got a chance to tell the aunt that. But everyone else knew once I remembered it, so I hope it got back to her.

I don't buy princess stuff. I will get Dora or Hello Kitty occasionally, but I don't like princess stuff.

I love overalls on small kids too (before they potty train, then it is a pain in the ass until they can take them off themselves)

Wow, gendered potties? That is silly, its not like the toilets in the ladies bathroom are bright pink and sparkly and the ones in the mens are dark coloured and sports themed. Other than urinals being for men as you can only stand up at them, this kind of thing s pretty much gender neutral. My two and a half year old is going to start potty training soon, hers is yellow with a duck on. I think mine was white, it was in the background of some of my toddler photos.

The little one was called a boy today-she was in a light blue coat, multi-coloured stripey leggings and was carrying the Disney Cars backpack she takes to daycare. I don't mind, at all, its not like it matters what people think. Small kids are pretty much androgynous anyway.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I love overalls on small kids too (before they potty train, then it is a pain in the ass until they can take them off themselves)

Wow, gendered potties? That is silly, its not like the toilets in the ladies bathroom are bright pink and sparkly and the ones in the mens are dark coloured and sports themed. Other than urinals being for men as you can only stand up at them, this kind of thing s pretty much gender neutral. My two and a half year old is going to start potty training soon, hers is yellow with a duck on. I think mine was white, it was in the background of some of my toddler photos.

The little one was called a boy today-she was in a light blue coat, multi-coloured stripey leggings and was carrying the Disney Cars backpack she takes to daycare. I don't mind, at all, its not like it matters what people think. Small kids are pretty much androgynous anyway.

They now have snap open crotches/legs overalls so you don't have to take off the whole ensemble anymore.

(Edited to specify)

[eohiken]

This is the same thing I see when I sub in the primary grades. Honestly, for all the handwringing that all girls' clothing is pink, my observations have consistently been that girls are wearing every color on the spectrum (including, God forbid apparently, pink) while boys are wearing blue, green, black and camo print. A few will be wearing red clothing with logos for the local college football team, but other than that it is blue, green, black and camo.

I am also more and more concerned with the fact that the implication of all of this gender neutral stuff leans strongly toward "girls must not look like girls" while little attention is paid to how much boys are stereotyped. The result does not empower girls and women, it is quite the opposite, in fact. The message becomes that it is somehow unacceptable to appear in any way that is traditionally female and if that is unacceptable, then the underlying message can easily be interpreted as all things "female" being somehow lesser. . It echoes second wave feminism's notions of women in gender neutral business suits trying to conquer the male dominated world by appearing less feminine. What is truly empowering is allowing girls and women to embrace anything they want. Even if it is pink or sparkly or otherwise stereotypically feminine. There is no equality if those things are always perceived as weak or bad, we are simply giving in and agreeing that strength is only in those things that are stereotypically male. We also do no favors to males who are not stereotypically masculine by perpetuating this notion.

From what I'm seeing in our elementary school is a swath of pink for the first few years, and all the little girls' fav colour (other than mine) is, not shockingly, pink. Which is of course, entirely cultural, pink being a masculine colour not that many generations ago.

The issue that I (and many others have) is not that there is anything wrong with pink and ruffles, but that it's a very narrow definition of femininity, and has turned into the uniform of the 2-6 yo set. Even for kids that are pretty darn content to perform their birth gender, the available choices in dress and play for each gender has become more limited. My red-loving, non-princessy daughter loves to wear skirts and dresses, just not pink ones.

[Coconut Flan]

As a mother, I have been frustrated out of my mind that I couldn't buy with all the money in the world a child-sized garment NOT emblazoned with either princesses or monster trucks.

I'm quite partial to buying jeans and green and red shirts. Khaki is also a good one. I don't sweat over it though if the kid wants something else. What is important is the child grow up with a strong sense of self whatever that self is.

I, too, am a fan of the toilet insert. It works everywhere because I'm sure not carrying a potty chair around with me shopping.

[Maggie Mae]

I just looked at gymboree. Lots & Lots of non pink clothing. It bothers me that clothes for babies/toddlers are grouped into "boy" and "girl" and that for some reason boys have the option of blue hippos, yet girls get get "safari." However, my goodness are tiny clothes expensive!

[Luvmyskinnyjeanz]

This as with anything if taken to the extreme becomes ridiculous and/or dangerous. I always feel like bitch-slapping some people and screaming 'with all the real issues and horrors in the world, THIS is the one that you focus on?' FFS

[twinmama]

When I'm shopping in kids clothing stores (just Carters really), it always seems like the gender neutral clothes are boy clothes. Almost all of the girls clothes are ruffles and pink and glitter. I might be wrong as I have two boys and don't look too closely at the girl stuff usually. I do wish there was a better neutral section though, since every Carters I've gone to seems to be 3/4 girls clothes, 1/4 boys clothes. And yeah kid clothes are ridiculously expensive, for how small they are and how short term they are worn. Once Upon A Child forever!!!! (kid's consignment)

[louisa05]

From what I'm seeing in our elementary school is a swath of pink for the first few years, and all the little girls' fav colour (other than mine) is, not shockingly, pink. Which is of course, entirely cultural, pink being a masculine colour not that many generations ago.

The issue that I (and many others have) is not that there is anything wrong with pink and ruffles, but that it's a very narrow definition of femininity, and has turned into the uniform of the 2-6 yo set. Even for kids that are pretty darn content to perform their birth gender, the available choices in dress and play for each gender has become more limited. My red-loving, non-princessy daughter loves to wear skirts and dresses, just not pink ones.

Come here and there is plenty of red for boys and girls as long as you don't mind an "N" on it.

The choices are not limited unless you consciously choose to not cross the retail/marketing imposed gender boundaries. But what I see, over and over, is "no pink, no sparkle, no ruffles" for girls and "I don't want my daughter to wear only girly stuff so I buy her boys' clothes". The parent saying "oh no, there is too much camo and sports stuff for boys" is a true rarity. And I have yet to hear or read any parent saying "I don't want my son to wear only hyper-masculine stuff so I buy him girls' clothes". Message: feminine things are bad, masculine things are good. No equality there.

[treehugger]

I just looked at gymboree. Lots & Lots of non pink clothing. It bothers me that clothes for babies/toddlers are grouped into "boy" and "girl" and that for some reason boys have the option of blue hippos, yet girls get get "safari." However, my goodness are tiny clothes expensive!

My absolute favourite baby clothes are from Hanna Andersson. There are some girly items, but lots of functional jeans and pants and t-shirts - which are SO much nicer for playing in than frills and ruffles. I want to cry every time I see the prices though - sales are rare, and shipping to Canada is insanely expensive!

I don't have a problem with my daughter wearing pink if she wants, or any colour really. But I am holding off on the frills and ruffles and tutus and tiaras until she wants to wear them - they just aren't practical for playing!

[Firiel]

Come here and there is plenty of red for boys and girls as long as you don't mind an "N" on it.

The choices are not limited unless you consciously choose to not cross the retail/marketing imposed gender boundaries. But what I see, over and over, is "no pink, no sparkle, no ruffles" for girls and "I don't want my daughter to wear only girly stuff so I buy her boys' clothes". The parent saying "oh no, there is too much camo and sports stuff for boys" is a true rarity. And I have yet to hear or read any parent saying "I don't want my son to wear only hyper-masculine stuff so I buy him girls' clothes". Message: feminine things are bad, masculine things are good. No equality there.

I agree with this. And I think it's one of the ways that sexism is stubbornly hanging on. It's reflected in the fact that it's far more common for parents to be okay with a girl wearing camo than a boy wearing a dress. I wasn't discouraged from wearing baggy t-shirts and boys' shorts as a girl, even in my very conservative family. If I had been a boy wanting to wear a skirt, though, all hell would have broken loose. Masculinity is the standard, femininity is the Other. Masculinity is still associated with strength, whether performed by a man or a woman whereas femininity often still implies being weaker, regardless of whether it is performed by a man or a woman.

Note that I don't think individuals who wear camo or people whose children (male or female) dress "masculinely" are sexist. I just see the above as a pervasive theme in our culture, and one that's particularly difficult to address based on the stickiness of gender and gender stereotypes that currently exist in Western culture.